(06-07-2024, 08:07 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Hubbard is a good run stopper. He's whatever at pass rushing. There's plenty of "all around" d-ends I'd take over him. Plenty.

and we're not talking about duos. We're talking about the edge room. Which is also including Ossai and Murphy. If it's just duos, Hubbard and Hendrickson are like 15-18th. But Ossai has proved nothing going into his 4th year, and Murphy is only in his second year.

Hubbard does more little stuff than any other Edge in the league , such as coverage, run defense, and spying on QBs. His pass rush isn't elite but he is one more versatile edges in the league.

I don't see many teams with more than 2 dynamic edges on the team. Maybe 5 to 10 tops! So not sure how you could put that much stalk into backup players.

(06-07-2024, 08:07 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Hubbard is a good run stopper. He's whatever at pass rushing. There's plenty of "all around" d-ends I'd take over him. Plenty.

and we're not talking about duos. We're talking about the edge room. Which is also including Ossai and Murphy. If it's just duos, Hubbard and Hendrickson are like 15-18th. But Ossai has proved nothing going into his 4th year, and Murphy is only in his second year.

I get what you're saying and we do appear to be thin behind Hubbard and Hendrickson, but a duo like that goes a long way. Just look at some other starters:

ARZ: They have 7.5 combined sacks coming back in their starters
ATL: They bring back 9
BAL: Projected starters had 5 sacks last year
CAR: Brings back 17 (only .5 fewer than Trey go by himself last year)
CHI- Brings back 15
CLV: 19.5 (One of the best duos in the NFL)


I stopped after the first 6 alphabetically and a case can easily be made that Cincy is better (especially in pass rushing) than 5 of them.

I think the issue is: You're spot on on pointing out a few of our warts, but you're overestimating the rest of the NFL, if you have us bottom 5. 

(06-07-2024, 09:37 PM)J24 Wrote: Hubbard does more little stuff than any other Edge in the league , such as coverage, run defense, and spying on QBs. His pass rush isn't elite but he is one more versatile edges in the league.

I don't see many teams with more than 2 dynamic edges on the team. Maybe 5 to 10 tops! So not sure how you could put that much stalk into backup players.

I would argue he would be viewed as a better pass rusher if that was all he did, like Trey. If all he did was pass rush on those snaps he played the run, spyed the QB, or fell into coverage, his sack totals would be closer to Trey's.

Something to consider than is often dismissed...

(06-07-2024, 08:16 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Can someone show Cedric's RAS scores again?

(06-07-2024, 04:45 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Too many unknowns. Ossai seems broken after the afc title game. Murphy is unproven and unknown. Trey will be good for 14 sacks but poor run defense. Hubbard is a 6 sacks guy with good run defense

Until Murphy starts playing like a stud, this is a bottom 5 defensive end unit

About 20th.  They have no depth.

(06-07-2024, 07:24 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: this is just homer talk. It’s not about “what ifs” and “potential”

There’s Hendrickson, Hubbard(a run stopper), Ossai(LOL), and Murphy(complete unknown)

Only a bengals fanatic who only knows about the bengals would rate those 4 anywhere better than 25th

I'd bet I watch as many or more NFL games than most.  Only a truly negative fan who thinks they know the NFL doesn't grasp the fact that Hendrickson is a Top 5 pass rusher and Hubbard has been the top run stopping edge in the league.  Murphy led all rookies in pass rush win rate last season, his growth was truly visible last season to those that actually watch a lot of ball.  That is not a bottom 5 edge room.

(06-08-2024, 10:09 AM)casear2727 Wrote: I'd bet I watch as many or more NFL games than most.  Only a truly negative fan who thinks they know the NFL doesn't grasp the fact that Hendrickson is a Top 5 pass rusher and Hubbard has been the top run stopping edge in the league.  Murphy led all rookies in pass rush win rate last season, his growth was truly visible last season to those that actually watch a lot of ball.  That is not a bottom 5 edge room.

alright, it's bottom 10. I only see 1 true pass rusher, and he cant defend the run well at all. Murphy still has a lot to prove. Ossai is practically worthless as of right now. Maybe bottom 5 is a bit harsh, but 100% bottom 10 if Im being lenient 

After reviewing Bfine's list I put them in the 9 to 13 range probabaly closer to 13.

(06-08-2024, 10:14 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: alright, it's bottom 10. I only see 1 true pass rusher, and he cant defend the run well at all. Murphy still has a lot to prove. Ossai is practically worthless as of right now. Maybe bottom 5 is a bit harsh, but 100% bottom 10 if Im being lenient 

Trey is not going to change, but if Sam's injury was truly the reason for his lack of production and he hasn't lost a step, they should be ok.  

Murphy will have to prove it on the filed without a doubt and who knows with Ossai?  Guy was in Lou's doghouse all year.  Unlike others on here Im not as big on Cedric Johnson.  He had early success and then his production never increased in college.  Chris Evans also has an awesome RAS score.... we will see if this kid can do something but Im not expecting anything out of him this season.

(06-08-2024, 10:23 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Trey is not going to change, but if Sam's injury was truly the reason for his lack of production and he hasn't lost a step, they should be ok.  

Murphy will have to prove it on the filed without a doubt and who knows with Ossai?  Guy was in Lou's doghouse all year.  Unlike others on here Im not as big on Cedric Johnson.  He had early success and then his production never increased in college.  Chris Evans also has an awesome RAS score.... we will see if this kid can do something but Im not expecting anything out of him this season.

yea sam's getting up there in football age. This is not something people should overlook 

I said 11 to 17. Trey is a great pass rusher, but his freedom in schemes to get to the QB hurt his ability to stop the run. Hibbard is an average Edge/DE, he was hurt in 2023 so hopefully a better year in 2024. Hubbard is solid against run and bad pass rushing in his career.

I like both Murphy and Ossai. I see Murphy breaking out in 2024. Ossai has also battled injuries, so I. hope he gets it together in 2024.

(06-07-2024, 09:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I get what you're saying and we do appear to be thin behind Hubbard and Hendrickson, but a duo like that goes a long way. Just look at some other starters:

ARZ: They have 7.5 combined sacks coming back in their starters
ATL: They bring back 9
BAL: Projected starters had 5 sacks last year
CAR: Brings back 17 (only .5 fewer than Trey go by himself last year)
CHI- Brings back 15
CLV: 19.5 (One of the best duos in the NFL)


I stopped after the first 6 alphabetically and a case can easily be made that Cincy is better (especially in pass rushing) than 5 of them.

I think the issue is: You're spot on on pointing out a few of our warts, but you're overestimating the rest of the NFL, if you have us bottom 5. 

funny i was going to do that also,, there is not alot of depth overall in the league, as i stated Trey and Hubbard are in top 10 together... especially as i stated last three years Trey is 3rd in sacks and Hubbard is 20th, plus Hubbard is good against run and drops in coverage also, so very versatile

(06-07-2024, 01:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We move back to the Defensive Side of the ball and focus on our Edge D. Last year we had the boyz 6-10. A secondary question was asked in the poll and it was who would have better number Ossai or Murphy. Ossai won the poll, as for the answer:

OSSAI: 1 PD/ 1 SACK/ 10 TACKLES
MURPHY: 3 SACKS/ 20 TACKLES

So where do we rank the Edge group of Trey/ Sam/ Joe/ Myles? As always the competition:

ARZ: ZAVEN COLLINS/ BJ OJULARI/ DARIUS ROBINSON/ XAVIER THOMAS
ATL: ARNOLD EBIKETIE/ LORENZO CARTER/ BRADLEE ANAE/ DEANGELO MALONE
BAL: ODAFE OWEH/ ADISA ISSAC/ KYLE VAN NOY/ DAVID OJABO
BUF: GREG ROUSSEAU/ AJ EPENESA/ VON MILLER/ DUWAUNE SMOOT
CAR: DJ WONNUM/ JADAVEON CLOWNEY/ EKU LEOTA/ KLAVON CHAISSON
CHI: DEMARCUS WALKER/ MONTEZ SWEAT/ KHALID KAREEM/ AUSTIN BOOKER
CLV: ZADARIUS SMITH/ MYLES GARETT/ OGBO OKORONKWO/ ALEX WRIGHT
DAL: DEMARCUS LAWRENCE/ MICAH PARSONS/ SAM WILLIAMS/ MARSHAWN KNEELAND
DEN: GARETT BOLLES/ MIKE MCGLINCHEY/ MATT PEART
DET: AIDAN HUCHINSON/ MARCUS DAVENPORT/ MICHEL AGUDE/ JOHN COMINSKY
GBP: PRESTON SMITH/ RASHAWN GARY/ LUKAS VAN NESS/ KINGSLEY ENAGBARE
HOU: WILL ANDERSON/ DANIELLE HUNTER/ DEREK BARNETT/ DYLAN HORTON
IND: KWITY PAYE/ LAITATU LATU/ SAMSON EBUKAM/ DAYO ODEYINGBO
JAX: JOSH ALLEN/ TRAVON WALKER/ YASIR ABDULLAH/ TREVIS GIPSON
KCC: GEORGE KARLAFTIS/ MIKE DANNA/ MALIK HERRING/ CHARLES OMENIHU
LAC: JOEY BOSA/ KHALIL MACK/ TULI TUIPULTU/ BED DUPREE
LAR: BYRON YOUNG/ JARED VERSE/ BRENNAN JACKSON/ MICHAEL HOECHT
LVR: MAXX CROSBY/ MALCOLM KOONCE/ JANARIUS ROBINSON/ ELERSON SMITH
MIA: JAELEN PHILLIPS/ BRADLEY CHUBB/ SHAQ BENNETT/ CHOP ROBINSON
MIN: JONATHAN GREENARD/ ANDREW VAN GINKEL/ DALLAS TURNER/ ANDRE CARTER
NEP: MATT JUDON/ JOSH UCHE/ ANFERNEE JENNINGS/ OSHANE XIMINES
NOS: CAM JORDAN/ CARL GRANDERSON/ CHASE YOUNG/ TANOH KPASSAGNON
NYG: BRIAN BURNS/ KAYVON THIBODEAUX/ BOOGIE BASHAM/ AZEEZ OJUIARI
NYJ: JERMAINE JOHNSON/ HASSON REDDICK/ MICHAEL CLEMONS/ WILL MCDONALD
PHI: BRYCE HUFF/ JOSH SWEAT/ NOLAN SMITH/ ZACK BAUN
PIT: TJ WATT/ ALEX HIGHSMITH/ PAYTON WILSON/ JEREMIAH MOON
SEA: BOYE MAFE/UCHENNA NWOSU/ DERICK HALL/ DARRELL TAYLOR
SFF: LEONARD FLOYD/ NICK BOSA/ DRAKE JACKSON/ YETUR GROSSMATOS
TBB: YAYA DIABY/ JOE TYRON/ CHRIS BASEWELL/ RANDY GREGORY
TEN: HAROLD LANDRY/ ARDEN KEY/ RASHAD WEAVER/ CALEB MURPHY
WAS: DANTE FOWLER/ DORANCE ARMSTRONG/ CLEIN FERRELL/ ANDRE JONES

TOP FA’s: CARL LAWSON/ YANNICK NGAKOUE/ FRANK CLARK/ RASHEEM GREEN

you have the Den O line listed

(06-07-2024, 01:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: DEN: GARETT BOLLES/ MIKE MCGLINCHEY/ MATT PEART

I don't know how well those guys would do on Defense, but I'd optimistically put them 11-17 in terms of OT groups.

Our EDGE is okay. Trey is the big rusher and Sam is a high level run defender and all around DE. you could see Murphy grow as the season went on and Sample and Ossai are sound reserves. What can make our EDGE look better would be actually getting pass rush from the interior, and Rankins is a boost in that.

(06-08-2024, 10:20 AM)Synric Wrote: After reviewing Bfine's list I put them in the 9 to 13 range probabaly closer to 13.

That's what I'm thinking, though they could wind up solidly in the Top 10 if Murphy continues his upward trend from the second half of last season. People forget he was leading all rookies in pass rush win rate after the bye last year.  Sample is a solid run stuffer in a rotation, as well 

(06-10-2024, 10:31 AM)kalibengal Wrote: you have the Den O line listed

And Booth thinks they're still better than the Bengals' Edge D

(06-10-2024, 10:50 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I don't know how well those guys would do on Defense, but I'd optimistically put them 11-17 in terms of OT groups.

Probably not much worse than the actual group. 

(06-07-2024, 07:24 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: this is just homer talk. It’s not about “what ifs” and “potential”

There’s Hendrickson, Hubbard(a run stopper), Ossai(LOL), and Murphy(complete unknown)

Only a bengals fanatic who only knows about the bengals would rate those 4 anywhere better than 25th

You have two on the field at any given time and one is a top 10 rusher, so it's fair to say if you got average play out of anyone they put on the other side you can pretty easily argue they could be middle of the pack (13-18). I don't think it's homerish to say that at all.

Just because it's worth throwing out why, I think the Bengals can make an argument they are as good or better than...

ARI, ATL, BAL, CAR, CHI, DEN, DET, IND, KC, LAR, LVR, NE, SEA, TB, TEN, WAS