Zimmer was able to bring the best out of guys that were on their way out of the league like Reggie Nelson and Wallace Gilberry. Thomas Howard was so good his one healthy year here. His defenses seemed to be more aggressive and just nastier. I think Lou gets his reputation around here mostly from those 2nd halves of those KC games. His defenses have been below average to historically bad at times too.

Zim gets the nod from me

(06-10-2024, 08:05 PM)jason Wrote: Zimmer was able to bring the best out of guys that were on their way out of the league like Reggie Nelson and Wallace Gilberry. Thomas Howard was so good his one healthy year here. His defenses seemed to be more aggressive and just nastier. I think Lou gets his reputation around here mostly from those 2nd halves of those KC games. His defenses have been below average to historically bad at times too.

Zim gets the nod from me

I remember the defense rallying around Zim after his wife passed. They were relentless from what I remember. I also remember the dead cat bounce year. Good lord that was some good football.

Zimmer’s defense seemed to falter in the playoffs.

Lou’s thrived. I’ll never forget how exhausted Mahomes looked after facing us.

(06-10-2024, 09:37 PM)SladeX Wrote: Zimmer’s defense seemed to falter in the playoffs.

Lou’s thrived. I’ll never forget how exhausted Mahomes looked after facing us.

Lou actually had a good concept plus the right players to execute it. Mush rush while they show one coverage up to the snap then suddenly switch to a different one upon snap. It basically nerfed Mahomes pre snap reads and forced the offense to run on post snap reads which slowed it down. Over time it forced KC to change their offense. Last season without a competent "QB" back there calling the alignments Lou's system broke down. Hence Stone and Vonn Bell being brought in. 

https://youtu.be/vhBCus3aP9Y?si=8SfPMKBvBmDxM2x5

Nice video explaining Lou Scheme. Also nice shout outs for Mike Hilton and DJ Reader.

(06-10-2024, 02:46 PM)Au165 Wrote: I am not sure why you believe this, but not sure it's based in reality. NFL defenses are all very complex and I think fans for the most part have no clue what is happening in reality. Zone coverage rules and installs for instance can be multiple pages for a single play. They are complex because they have to be able to adjust to what the offense does, it's a reactive position to be in. 

From interviews with Zim and Lou over the years with reporters.

(06-10-2024, 02:58 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Hmmm....I feel pretty strongly the other way around. The AFC has insane elite QB play right now.

Mahomes
Rodgers
Burrow
Allen
Lamar
Herbert
Tua

Maybe you believe Rodgers is going to be bad once he returns, but even if that's the case, I think there are multiple QBs on that list that are better than both Rivers and Ben at bare minimum. Mahomes and Brady OR Manning cancel each other out at this point. 

His point was that you should take the QBs in the AFC into consideration that Lou & Zimmer competed against when comparing them. If we're looking at their body of work to compare the two (which we are) Rodgers would have nothing to do with that comparison since he did not play last year. 

No one on that list, outside of Mahomes is better than Peyton or BB. 

(06-10-2024, 04:21 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Solid QBs no doubt all HOFs ,but Mahomes, Allen, Jackson are also looking at HOF careers plus young guns in Herbert and Tua, so think it is a wash.

Doubt it.

I question if any run-heavy QB will have a long career, but Allen has 78 INT and 59 Fum in 6 years while being a 0x 2nd or 1st Team All-Pro, and has been to 0 Super Bowls and hasn't even been a #1 seed yet. He's never led in any of the main QB stats of Cmp%, TDs, Y/A, YPG, or QB Rating.

Don't think his playstyle will let him last long enough to gather a Rivers-type accumulation of very good career, either.

Jackson probably gets in because of the two MVPs but every other year of his has not been MVP-caliber worthy and I question if he'll last long enough to accumulate, same as Allen.

I think some folks are losing track of a few things, to be fair

Lou's gotten more resources devoted to his unit in terms of outside Free Agents. However, Zimmer had a lot more resources devoted to retaining his players. Continuity on defense is important. I never remember Zim going into a situation where he had three new starters in the secondary.

Both men have had their success with guys who aren't exactly household names. Hilton was certainly not a premier add, but he quickly established himself as one of the top nickels in the league under Lou. Eli Apple resuscitated his career, then faded after he left. BJ Hill was a trade candidate that would have been otherwise cut and has developed into a solid starter. Vonn Bell signed well after the initial FA feeding frenzy ended, then left and got cut a year into a 3 year deal. Even Trey Hendrickson many were saying was cheaper replacement for Carl Lawson when he signed.

The philosophies are a lot different. Zimmer's focus was on competing with the other AFCN teams, while Lou's is competing with the high powered aerial offenses of the AFC. However, Zimmer's defenses usually faltered in big games and moments and poor discipline and self-destruction were as much hallmarks of his units as their tough nosed style.

(06-11-2024, 05:01 AM)BengalsBong Wrote: From interviews with Zim and Lou over the years with reporters.

I'd need to see context. You aren't going to remove calls for handling situations as they are there for that specific reason but their are tiers I am sure to complexity. For instance Zimmer almost always brings a linebacker from his previous stop with him almost everywhere he goes. He has Eric Kendricks with him now in Dallas because there is a lot of complexity in setting his defense and the calls for him come from the LB. 

(06-11-2024, 12:32 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Doubt it.

I question if any run-heavy QB will have a long career, but Allen has 78 INT and 59 Fum in 6 years while being a 0x 2nd or 1st Team All-Pro, and has been to 0 Super Bowls and hasn't even been a #1 seed yet. He's never led in any of the main QB stats of Cmp%, TDs, Y/A, YPG, or QB Rating.

Don't think his playstyle will let him last long enough to gather a Rivers-type accumulation of very good career, either.

Jackson probably gets in because of the two MVPs but every other year of his has not been MVP-caliber worthy and I question if he'll last long enough to accumulate, same as Allen.

You may be right , Burrow in same situation as Lamar will he stay healthy long enough to get in HOF.

(06-11-2024, 05:02 PM)Au165 Wrote: I'd need to see context. You aren't going to remove calls for handling situations as they are there for that specific reason but their are tiers I am sure to complexity. For instance Zimmer almost always brings a linebacker from his previous stop with him almost everywhere he goes. He has Eric Kendricks with him now in Dallas because there is a lot of complexity in setting his defense and the calls for him come from the LB. 

In 2012 the defense got destroyed by Baltimore and Cleveland in the first two weeks of the season. Zimmer did state that he  added more stuff in training camp then he should have and he had to simplify the defense because it wasnt working.

The changes eventually worked because in the last 8 games of the regular season the defense gave up 12.75 points. In fact only one team scored 20 points on us during that span and it was the Dallas cowboys.

I'm sure you're right that defenses are more complicated than the average fan can comprehend though but their is something to simplifying the playbook.

Zim did a lot of good things especially coming on the heels of a TERRIBLE DC in Chuck Bresnahan. Remember when one of his first acts was flat out telling the front office the team was physically too small up front? Zim was the one who started looking for bigger and stronger D linemen. He also valued football IQ as evidenced by his always trying to have someone smart at MLB and also as one of the safeties; in both cases to set the defense correctly.

Lou also came in on the heels of a disaster of a DC stint (Marvin trying to do double duty) and he also needed to change the players up. Also like Zim Lou relies on football IQ and a smart player to set the defense - in this case it was Vonn Bell. While Bates was the flasher and more athletic safety you could tell it was Bell that Lou was counting on keeping. Losing Bell effectively lobotomized the secondary. I have to think Lou was behind the Geno Stone signing and also getting Bell back - his defense needs high Football IQ and got exactly that.

(06-11-2024, 05:02 PM)Au165 Wrote: I'd need to see context. You aren't going to remove calls for handling situations as they are there for that specific reason but their are tiers I am sure to complexity. For instance Zimmer almost always brings a linebacker from his previous stop with him almost everywhere he goes. He has Eric Kendricks with him now in Dallas because there is a lot of complexity in setting his defense and the calls for him come from the LB. 

This is going off track from the original post that I posted, but this is what we had an issue with last year. We expected Dax to learn a new position since he was not a free safety in college and be responsible for calling plays as well. Him and Battle should have just been asked to play their spots last year and left the play calling to the LB that have been in the system 3 or 4 years. The play calling should have been Pratt and Logans job.

Not saying Dax would have excelled at FS but at least he would have stood a chance. We tend to try to fit square pegs in round holes around here player management and development has been an issue here for some time.

(06-10-2024, 02:58 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Hmmm....I feel pretty strongly the other way around. The AFC has insane elite QB play right now.

Mahomes
Rodgers
Burrow
Allen
Lamar
Herbert
Tua

Maybe you believe Rodgers is going to be bad once he returns, but even if that's the case, I think there are multiple QBs on that list that are better than both Rivers and Ben at bare minimum. Mahomes and Brady OR Manning cancel each other out at this point. 

Tee Hee

Also we don't play against Burrow.

(06-12-2024, 11:29 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: This is going off track from the original post that I posted, but this is what we had an issue with last year. We expected Dax to learn a new position since he was not a free safety in college and be responsible for calling plays as well. Him and Battle should have just been asked to play their spots last year and left the play calling to the LB that have been in the system 3 or 4 years. The play calling should have been Pratt and Logans job.

Not saying Dax would have excelled at FS but at least he would have stood a chance. We tend to try to fit square pegs in round holes around here player management and development has been an issue here for some time.

The safety has to set the secondary coverage, a LB can't make that coverage adjustment. Usually what happens is the LB will make a call and signal it around then each area makes their checks based off that. 

They are taught rules to follow but knowing when to apply those rules to make the adjustments falls on the safety in game. So when you hear miscommunication issues and busted coverages, usually what happens is a safety made the wrong check or they made a check and the CB didn't hear it so they were playing two different coverages.