(06-20-2024, 11:39 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Are we getting the PFF Trent Brown of 2023 or 2022 (.80 or .67 ) Karras is our next best lineman coming in at #15 best center. Orlando Brown is right in the middle of all tackles.

If 30 tackles scored an 80+ including your team's guys, but your guys were 16th in the list of guys at 80+, are you going to criticize them for not being higher? Or would you accept that maybe 30 guys actually played very well and be happy with who you have, even if there are 10+ guys who are even better?

I am the latter.

I think of it like school grading system.
I don't care what all my classmates got in comparison. I look to get the best grade I can and am happy if I get an A. I'm in competition with me only.
Getting an A is my goal.
There's always going to be someone better at some point. Don't beat yourself up if you're doing well.

(06-20-2024, 12:22 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If 30 tackles scored an 80+ including your team's guys, but your guys were 16th in the list of guys at 80+, are you going to criticize them for not being higher? Or would you accept that maybe 30 guys actually played very well and be happy with who you have, even if there are 10+ guys who are even better?

I am the latter.

I think of it like school grading system.
I don't care what all my classmates got in comparison. I look to get the best grade I can and am happy if I get an A. I'm in competition with me only.
Getting an A is my goal.
There's always going to be someone better at some point. Don't beat yourself up if you're doing well.

Zeus is from OU he’s my guy. But last year he was avg. according to PFF. KC didn’t keep him. He’s a great value but he is what he is. He’s an average LT and probably better RT. That’s what KC wanted him to do. But I stand by my comments. Our OL is average at best. He’ll average would be an improvement

(06-20-2024, 12:36 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Zeus is from OU he’s my guy. But last year he was avg. according to PFF. KC didn’t keep him. He’s a great value but he is what he is. He’s an average LT and probably better RT. That’s what KC wanted him to do. But I stand by my comments. Our OL is average at best. He’ll average would be an improvement

Last year yea, but how much of it was playing in the Bengals scheme and with new team in general?

I'd like to see how he performs this year before labeling him as average when he had been above average for multiple years before coming to Bengals.

(06-20-2024, 12:36 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Zeus is from OU he’s my guy. But last year he was avg. according to PFF. KC didn’t keep him. He’s a great value but he is what he is. He’s an average LT and probably better RT. That’s what KC wanted him to do. But I stand by my comments. Our OL is average at best. He’ll average would be an improvement

Brown was always overrated. He has name value and played for the best and most hyped teams in the league. He won’t ever be a pro bowler again now that he plays in cincy. Cincy simply doesn’t get the love that kc and Baltimore constantly get.

(06-20-2024, 12:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Last year yea, but how much of it was playing in the Bengals scheme and with new team in general?

I'd like to see how he performs this year before labeling him as average when he had been above average for multiple years before coming to Bengals.

A LOT of it is schematic. Any look at the OL that does not look at the scheme is iffy at best. We have had one of the more OL unfriendly schemes in the NFL ever since Zac came aboard. Our tendencies in run/pass, shotgun/under center and how many receivers we send out combine to let defenses tee off on the line because they know what the play is and we put our linemen out on islands a LOT. 

Just look at what happened when they changed the scheme up a bit (when Burrow's calf healed) and went under center more and had a more balanced run/pass ratio - all of a sudden the line looked pretty good. It even looked okay with Browning except when he was holding the ball way too long.  

(06-20-2024, 11:28 AM)ochocincos Wrote: What about the LG? 

This is a "feel good" thread.

(06-20-2024, 01:36 PM)Joelist Wrote: A LOT of it is schematic. Any look at the OL that does not look at the scheme is iffy at best. We have had one of the more OL unfriendly schemes in the NFL ever since Zac came aboard. Our tendencies in run/pass, shotgun/under center and how many receivers we send out combine to let defenses tee off on the line because they know what the play is and we put our linemen out on islands a LOT. 

Just look at what happened when they changed the scheme up a bit (when Burrow's calf healed) and went under center more and had a more balanced run/pass ratio - all of a sudden the line looked pretty good. It even looked okay with Browning except when he was holding the ball way too long.  

They said they didn’t add anything to the offense for Browning. A lot was already planned for Joe but his injury precluded it. And they went with the things Jake liked. The run scheme changed little

(06-20-2024, 01:46 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: They said they didn’t add anything to the offense for Browning. A lot was already planned for Joe but his injury precluded it. And they went with the things Jake liked. The run scheme changed little

The offense did change. The run-pass balance changed and they went under center more. Whether or not it was planned for Joe is irrelevant. The run scheme inherently changes when they go under center. As in 64.5% pass before Burrow went out to 57.5% pass after. Pretty significant change. And if you drop that weird first Stealer game where they only ran 11 times the balance went to 56% pass 44% run. That is a lot different than the 64.5% to 35.5% they were doing before. 

(06-20-2024, 02:00 PM)Joelist Wrote: The offense did change. The run-pass balance changed and they went under center more. Whether or not it was planned for Joe is irrelevant. The run scheme inherently changes when they go under center. As in 64.5% pass before Burrow went out to 57.5% pass after. Pretty significant change. And if you drop that weird first Stealer game where they only ran 11 times the balance went to 56% pass 44% run. That is a lot different than the 64.5% to 35.5% they were doing before. 

Didn’t say it didn’t change. Said they didn’t change the playbook. Used some stuff seldom used with Joe. Jake was more comfortable with play action and under center and using tight ends. Burrow is not. We’ve beat that dead horse to death. The bottom line for whatever reason the offensive staff and Zac who calls the plays has no confidence in the run game. Whether that’s the fault of Pollack, the OL, Mixon or whoever. It’s crystal clear to everyone on Planet Bengal. Hopefully Joe Burrow will be more receptive to under center. He hasn’t been his whole life. There’s not a coaching staff anywhere who caters more to crafting an offense to a QB’s strengths and preferences.

(06-19-2024, 03:31 PM)kevin Wrote: Can you imagine the Bengals if this team is laying on the blocks.

Before 1988, nobody was really talking Bengals that summer.  I told friends they still had Munoz and Montoya and if they block teams up and down the field, watch out for The Bengals in 1988.  The  Bengals have the talent to move those trenches up and down the field in 2024.  Some NFL reporters have said The Bengals have built a San Francisco 49ers type O Line.  I hope so.  You look at every Super Bowl film, and you will see the best O Line won.  A great O Line would let Burrow get the ball to Chase, Higgins, and a running game.  

It's very possible Bengals may have one of their best O Lines ever this season.  If so, watch out NFL, here comes our Bengals. We've seen bad O Lines, and you can throw the playbook in the garbage with no blocking. However with blocking, the X's and O's of the playbook work if the big guys are laying on the blocks and pushing defenses backwards. One year that stands out to me was Bill Parcells Giants in play-offs knocking defenses backwards every snap.  I said nobody is going to beat that, and nobody did.  So if Bengals have great blocking it will dominate, the Bengals defense won't even have to be on the field much. The best defense is a good offense

GO BENGALS

         

If the OL is great this season we are definitely the favorite to win the Super Bowl. Joe Burrow has never had a great OL in front of him and
with the weapons at his disposal and a running game I don't know how you stop this Offense if they are executing well. I know the LSU OL 
was supposed to be good, but they were not great.

(06-20-2024, 04:44 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: If the OL is great this season we are definitely the favorite to win the Super Bowl. Joe Burrow has never had a great OL in front of him and
with the weapons at his disposal and a running game I don't know how you stop this Offense if they are executing well. I know the LSU OL 
was supposed to be good, but they were not great.

YUP

If we have just an average line, we'll be dangerous. If we have a very good line, deep playoff run will be in works. If we have a "great" line, my money will be on the home team in the big dance.

I do think the OL has a chance to be the best since Joe has been here. I like the added big play the additions of Gesicki, Burton, and Chase Brown ( more experience) will bring. If we can get top 12 OL play we are going to be difficult to beat.?

I sincerely hope that the Bengals got the OL right this time, and I have to agree that it looks good on paper.At this point,we SHOULD have a top 5 OL,and if that is the case,then this Offense could be scary good.

(06-19-2024, 03:31 PM)kevin Wrote: Can you imagine the Bengals if this team is laying on the blocks.

Before 1988, nobody was really talking Bengals that summer.  I told friends they still had Munoz and Montoya and if they block teams up and down the field, watch out for The Bengals in 1988.  The  Bengals have the talent to move those trenches up and down the field in 2024.  Some NFL reporters have said The Bengals have built a San Francisco 49ers type O Line.  I hope so.  You look at every Super Bowl film, and you will see the best O Line won.  A great O Line would let Burrow get the ball to Chase, Higgins, and a running game.  

It's very possible Bengals may have one of their best O Lines ever this season.  If so, watch out NFL, here comes our Bengals. We've seen bad O Lines, and you can throw the playbook in the garbage with no blocking. However with blocking, the X's and O's of the playbook work if the big guys are laying on the blocks and pushing defenses backwards. One year that stands out to me was Bill Parcells Giants in play-offs knocking defenses backwards every snap.  I said nobody is going to beat that, and nobody did.  So if Bengals have great blocking it will dominate, the Bengals defense won't even have to be on the field much. The best defense is a good offense

GO BENGALS

         

I don't want to be the pessimist but I've been seeing this sentiment throughout several threads. If our offensive line wasn't good last year, do we really think swapping out a bit of an upgrade (with health concerns) is going to magically turn our offensive line into great? 

(06-19-2024, 03:31 PM)kevin Wrote: Can you imagine the Bengals if this team is laying on the blocks.

Before 1988, nobody was really talking Bengals that summer.  I told friends they still had Munoz and Montoya and if they block teams up and down the field, watch out for The Bengals in 1988.  The  Bengals have the talent to move those trenches up and down the field in 2024.  Some NFL reporters have said The Bengals have built a San Francisco 49ers type O Line.  I hope so.  You look at every Super Bowl film, and you will see the best O Line won.  A great O Line would let Burrow get the ball to Chase, Higgins, and a running game.  

It's very possible Bengals may have one of their best O Lines ever this season.  If so, watch out NFL, here comes our Bengals. We've seen bad O Lines, and you can throw the playbook in the garbage with no blocking. However with blocking, the X's and O's of the playbook work if the big guys are laying on the blocks and pushing defenses backwards. One year that stands out to me was Bill Parcells Giants in play-offs knocking defenses backwards every snap.  I said nobody is going to beat that, and nobody did.  So if Bengals have great blocking it will dominate, the Bengals defense won't even have to be on the field much. The best defense is a good offense

GO BENGALS

         

Great post Kevin. Teams win games in the trenches. If our offense can put points on the board and can control the clock, it gives our defense time to rest. I am still concerned about our DL and their ability to control the LOS. But, if we can make opponents offense one dimensional and having to pass in the 4th quarter, I think our 2024 DL is built better to pressure and sack the QB.

Always lots of ifs, but I love our 2024 team. Yes, I am an optimist, but I consider myself an informed optimist. I can't wait for the start of the season.

(06-20-2024, 06:35 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: YUP

If we have just an average line, we'll be dangerous. If we have a very good line, deep playoff run will be in works. If we have a "great" line, my money will be on the home team in the big dance.

No team scares me, not the Chiefs, not anyone with Joe Burrow at QB and our OL even just being okay.

If the OL plays better than okay we are the team to beat, if it plays great this Offense could be unstoppable with more under Center play.

Our Defense WILL play better this year, no way Lou and this Defense has 2 years in a row of being so bad against the run and giving up so many
big plays. I expect the Defense to look at what they did last year and come away offended by that poor showing.

(06-21-2024, 10:56 AM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: I don't want to be the pessimist but I've been seeing this sentiment throughout several threads. If our offensive line wasn't good last year, do we really think swapping out a bit of an upgrade (with health concerns) is going to magically turn our offensive line into great? 

Last year the OL was pretty much sabotaged being in the Shotgun so much early in the season. It took away the running game and 
predictability. Now if Pollack truly is the problem we will know if it doesn't improve big time. BTW when healthy Trent Brown is not just
a bit of an upgrade over Jonah Williams, he is a big upgrade and Mims could be a great OL down the road.

Any OL would struggle when put on their heels always trying to pass protect in the Shotgun without a run game or unpredictability.

We should be able to judge the OL much better with more under Center play.

(06-21-2024, 11:34 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Great post Kevin. Teams win games in the trenches. If our offense can put points on the board and can control the clock, it gives our defense time to rest. I am still concerned about our DL and their ability to control the LOS. But, if we can make opponents offense one dimensional and having to pass in the 4th quarter, I think our 2024 DL is built better to pressure and sack the QB.

Always lots of ifs, but I love our 2024 team. Yes, I am an optimist, but I consider myself an informed optimist. I can't wait for the start of the season.

Yes sir Luvnit. The thing is if we can win in the trenches and score points our Defense won't have to be the best at stopping the run
as they should have the lead a lot and can pin their ears back and go after the passer. The Offense helps the Defense and being the 
worst running Offense in the league last year sure didn't help our D.

(06-21-2024, 10:56 AM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: I don't want to be the pessimist but I've been seeing this sentiment throughout several threads. If our offensive line wasn't good last year, do we really think swapping out a bit of an upgrade (with health concerns) is going to magically turn our offensive line into great? 

Hint: Jonah Williams wasn't the entire reason the OL was subpar last season.
So I am in agreement with you.
The OL isn't going to magically turn into an amazing OL.
We've seen Karras, Cappa, and Volson on this OL for 2+ years.
OBJ I would expect to improve some now that he's been with the team for over a year.
Trent Brown and Amarius Mims might struggle some initially as they acclimate to this scheme and everything.

And I'll just reiterate the importance of scheme. If we come out with better run-pass balance, play more under center, break tendencies and when we run lean into power running (because our line is built for it and Moss is best in it) the line will look pretty good. It's time to stop with the scheme being so OL unfriendly. And I think Burrow has come to similar conclusions and Pitcher will likely also be thinking this.

(06-21-2024, 01:20 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Last year the OL was pretty much sabotaged being in the Shotgun so much early in the season. It took away the running game and 
predictability. Now if Pollack truly is the problem we will know if it doesn't improve big time. BTW when healthy Trent Brown is not just
a bit of an upgrade over Jonah Williams, he is a big upgrade and Mims could be a great OL down the road.

Why do we think we are going to be in shotgun less? Burrow has been pretty open about his preference to be in shotgun. 

(06-21-2024, 02:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Hint: Jonah Williams wasn't the entire reason the OL was subpar last season.
So I am in agreement with you.
The OL isn't going to magically turn into an amazing OL.
We've seen Karras, Cappa, and Volson on this OL for 2+ years.
OBJ I would expect to improve some now that he's been with the team for over a year.
Trent Brown and Amarius Mims might struggle some initially as they acclimate to this scheme and everything.

Scheme and all is one thing but chemistry is enormous in OL play which isn't mentioned enough. Knowing where your mates are is huge. My good buddy's son is best friends with a NFL starting OL and he gave the best example I've ever heard. He said a cohesive OL that has played together is like a driver switching lines and only having to look in their sideview mirror for a brief second. Having a mix and match OL with guys not playing together is like not only having to look in your sideview mirror but also having to turn your head around to look back as you just don't have that trust that has developed. Everything just takes way too long to develop.