(06-21-2024, 03:39 PM)higgy100 Wrote: Scheme and all is one thing but chemistry is enormous in OL play which isn't mentioned enough. Knowing where your mates are is huge. My good buddy's son is best friends with a NFL starting OL and he gave the best example I've ever heard. He said a cohesive OL that has played together is like a driver switching lines and only having to look in their sideview mirror for a brief second. Having a mix and match OL with guys not playing together is like not only having to look in your sideview mirror but also having to turn your head around to look back as you just don't have that trust that has developed. Everything just takes way too long to develop.

Yea that makes sense, but how long is long enough?
It's extremely rare for a team to return all 5 of its starters year after year, so there's always going to be some new face(s) about every year.
Karras, Cappa, and Volson have played together 30+ games.
OBJ was new last year, so I would think that's his year to gel and now he should be expected to be fully cohesive going into this season.

(06-21-2024, 03:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yea that makes sense, but how long is long enough?
It's extremely rare for a team to return all 5 of its starters year after year, so there's always going to be some new face(s) about every year.
Karras, Cappa, and Volson have played together 30+ games.
OBJ was new last year, so I would think that's his year to gel and now he should be expected to be fully cohesive going into this season.

I agree with you but it's not been nearly as bad as people think. They were one dropped TD pass from Boyd from being a playoff team last season. Clearly, as with 90% of the teams in the NFL, it's about your starting QB not getting hurt and the last two were very unusual injuries not the fault of the OL. 

While I liked Mixon, he didn't do the OL any favors by tip-toeing around too much, trying to bounce outside instead of hitting the hole hard and being a patient runner. I'm excited to watch the running game this season.He also left alot of yards out there in the passing game as he seriously struggled beating the 1st defender.

(06-21-2024, 02:57 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: Why do we think we are going to be in shotgun less? Burrow has been pretty open about his preference to be in shotgun. 

Because Burrow is healthy? The calf was why we were in the Shotgun like 100% of the time early last season. Burrow couldn't play under 
Center because of the injured calf.

This isn't sustainable even if Zack Moss is a much better runner out of the Shotgun than Mixon is. Under Center play allows the OL to play 
aggressive and hit Defenses in the face in the running game and it allows for Play Action as well to be much more effective. Look at the 49ers
game and you should see much more of what we will be seeing this season on Offense.

(06-21-2024, 04:13 PM)higgy100 Wrote: I agree with you but it's not been nearly as bad as people think. They were one dropped TD pass from Boyd from being a playoff team last season. Clearly, as with 90% of the teams in the NFL, it's about your starting QB not getting hurt and the last two were very unusual injuries not the fault of the OL. 

While I liked Mixon, he didn't do the OL any favors by tip-toeing around too much, trying to bounce outside instead of hitting the hole hard and being a patient runner. I'm excited to watch the running game this season.He also left alot of yards out there in the passing game as he seriously struggled beating the 1st defender.

Question - If your team wins the Super Bowl, does every position group get a pass when it comes to needing improvement?

I ask because we've seen plenty of times certain positions perform poorly even if a team advances deep into the postseason or even wins the Super Bowl.

My biggest thing is sacks allowed.

Bengals were 25th in the league at 2.9 sacks allowed per game.
Burrow was 2nd-most in the league at pass attempts per game at 36.5, so it's clear the Bengals are a pass-heavy team.

Let's compare that to the Chiefs and Patrick Mahomes.
Mahomes led the league in pass attempts per game at 37.3.
However, the Chiefs only allowed 1.6 sacks per game, which was 2nd-best in the league.

If you're going to be a pass-heavy team, you need to keep your QB clean.
Playcalling can help some with this by having a good RB and/or TE pass blocking, but the Bengals don't use TEs much to pass block. It's either run block or run routes for TEs.
Bengals heavily depend on their 5 OL keeping defenders off the QB, and they haven't been doing that for quite a few years now.
While other areas of the team might help get the Bengals deep into the playoffs still, pass blocking for the OL is still one of the worse points of this team.

If they can get even to middle of the pack in sacks allowed per game, that would be a big step for them compared to recent years.

(06-21-2024, 04:41 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Question - If your team wins the Super Bowl, does every position group get a pass when it comes to needing improvement?

I ask because we've seen plenty of times certain positions perform poorly even if a team advances deep into the postseason or even wins the Super Bowl.

My biggest thing is sacks allowed.

Bengals were 25th in the league at 2.9 sacks allowed per game.
Burrow was 2nd-most in the league at pass attempts per game at 36.5, so it's clear the Bengals are a pass-heavy team.

Let's compare that to the Chiefs and Patrick Mahomes.
Mahomes led the league in pass attempts per game at 37.3.
However, the Chiefs only allowed 1.6 sacks per game, which was 2nd-best in the league.

If you're going to be a pass-heavy team, you need to keep your QB clean.
Playcalling can help some with this by having a good RB and/or TE pass blocking, but the Bengals don't use TEs much to pass block. It's either run block or run routes for TEs.
Bengals heavily depend on their 5 OL keeping defenders off the QB, and they haven't been doing that for quite a few years now.
While other areas of the team might help get the Bengals deep into the playoffs still, pass blocking for the OL is still one of the worse points of this team.

If they can get even to middle of the pack in sacks allowed per game, that would be a big step for them compared to recent years.

I mean we are awful at pass pro and running the football. Awful

(06-22-2024, 02:46 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I mean we are awful at pass pro and running the football. Awful

True, but is anyone REALLY expecting the run game to blossom with the guys they got at this point?
I think it's going to be yet another season of pass-heavy offense.
Maybe I'm just not giving enough credit to Zack Moss though.

(06-21-2024, 02:57 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: Why do we think we are going to be in shotgun less? Burrow has been pretty open about his preference to be in shotgun. 

If he’s unwilling to do what’s best for the team, then he’s NOT who we thought he was.

(06-22-2024, 12:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: True, but is anyone REALLY expecting the run game to blossom with the guys they got at this point?
I think it's going to be yet another season of pass-heavy offense.
Maybe I'm just not giving enough credit to Zack Moss though.

I do think the run game will be much much better goal line and short yardage. But as far as taking the pressure off the pass game probably not. I was at the Jets game in ‘22 and we ran Perine play after after play after play running out the clock for like 8 minutes. Being able to run the ball successfully when you need to just has to be a component of a Super Bowl team.

Healthy Burrow + good Oline + at least a few healthy targets (ideally Chase and Higgins) = offensive powerhouse

We lost a Super Bowl because our Oline was bad and also injured. On the other hand, our defense was pretty good that year in the playoffs. Can this defense play up to near that level? That would be the other question. A good offense will at least get you a good number of wins before December though.

(06-22-2024, 12:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: True, but is anyone REALLY expecting the run game to blossom with the guys they got at this point?
I think it's going to be yet another season of pass-heavy offense.
Maybe I'm just not giving enough credit to Zack Moss though.

Being better than the worst isn't really blossoming honestly.

All we need to do is be decent at running the ball and better in pass protection. I think Zack Moss and Chase Brown with a good 
Offseason building his muscle could do just this if the O-line is just a little better than last year and Burrow goes under Center more.

(06-22-2024, 12:28 PM)SladeX Wrote: If he’s unwilling to do what’s best for the team, then he’s NOT who we thought he was.

Yes, I think Burrow took a little to a lot too much on his shoulders before this last injury and it really showed when Jake Browning
got in there and just ran the Offense successfully for the most part. Joe watching Jake nearly take this team to the Playoffs had to 
ring a bell in Joe's head.

(06-22-2024, 04:12 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: Healthy Burrow + good Oline + at least a few healthy targets (ideally Chase and Higgins) = offensive powerhouse

We lost a Super Bowl because our Oline was bad and also injured. On the other hand, our defense was pretty good that year in the playoffs. Can this defense play up to near that level? That would be the other question. A good offense will at least get you a good number of wins before December though.

We will see how Lou and the Defense responds. That was embarrassing last season. 

(06-21-2024, 02:33 PM)Joelist Wrote: And I'll just reiterate the importance of scheme. If we come out with better run-pass balance, play more under center, break tendencies and when we run lean into power running (because our line is built for it and Moss is best in it) the line will look pretty good. It's time to stop with the scheme being so OL unfriendly. And I think Burrow has come to similar conclusions and Pitcher will likely also be thinking this.

First of all I agree about the scheme. But we weren’t any more effective when Jake took over running the football. . It’s really about efficiency. In ‘21 & ‘22 we were 8th in points per play. In yards per point ‘23 (8) ‘22 (3) ‘21 (7). The bottom line Burrow hates under center. So I think it’s a combination of the OL and the staff trying to do what’s more efficient. You’ve got Joe. They throw a lot of screens in lieu of running. We agree we need to have a decent run game it will help the offense overall. But I can see it with my own eyes the OL blocking.

(06-21-2024, 04:41 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Question - If your team wins the Super Bowl, does every position group get a pass when it comes to needing improvement?

I ask because we've seen plenty of times certain positions perform poorly even if a team advances deep into the postseason or even wins the Super Bowl.

My biggest thing is sacks allowed.

Bengals were 25th in the league at 2.9 sacks allowed per game.
Burrow was 2nd-most in the league at pass attempts per game at 36.5, so it's clear the Bengals are a pass-heavy team.

Let's compare that to the Chiefs and Patrick Mahomes.
Mahomes led the league in pass attempts per game at 37.3.
However, the Chiefs only allowed 1.6 sacks per game, which was 2nd-best in the league.

If you're going to be a pass-heavy team, you need to keep your QB clean.
Playcalling can help some with this by having a good RB and/or TE pass blocking, but the Bengals don't use TEs much to pass block. It's either run block or run routes for TEs.
Bengals heavily depend on their 5 OL keeping defenders off the QB, and they haven't been doing that for quite a few years now.
While other areas of the team might help get the Bengals deep into the playoffs still, pass blocking for the OL is still one of the worse points of this team.

If they can get even to middle of the pack in sacks allowed per game, that would be a big step for them compared to recent years.

You simply cannot compare JB and Mahomes. Mahomes scrambles like nobody else in the league not named Lamar Jackson and runs away and avoid multiple sacks and one of the least scrambling QB's is JB. Just a bad comparison.

(06-21-2024, 04:15 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Because Burrow is healthy? The calf was why we were in the Shotgun like 100% of the time early last season. Burrow couldn't play under 
Center because of the injured calf.

This isn't sustainable even if Zack Moss is a much better runner out of the Shotgun than Mixon is. Under Center play allows the OL to play 
aggressive and hit Defenses in the face in the running game and it allows for Play Action as well to be much more effective. Look at the 49ers
game and you should see much more of what we will be seeing this season on Offense.

In 2022, we moved to a shotgun only offense after week 5. Nothing to do with a Burrow injury, but more of Burrow's preference.

That's my point. We were in a shotgun heavy/only offense before Burrow was injured. So, why will that change? 

(06-24-2024, 02:46 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: In 2022, we moved to a shotgun only offense after week 5. Nothing to do with a Burrow injury, but more of Burrow's preference.

That's my point. We were in a shotgun heavy/only offense before Burrow was injured. So, why will that change? 

Because they've ran it so much that opposing teams, especially our division rivals have learn to predict and plan for it. It has to change, at least to a degree, in order to keep teams playing honest defense.

(06-24-2024, 03:06 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Because they've ran it so much that opposing teams, especially our division rivals have learn to predict and plan for it. It has to change, at least to a degree, in order to keep teams playing honest defense.

Have there been any comments from Taylor about the change? Have there been any articles written about adjusting the offense? Peyton Manning famously preferred shotgun, and the colts primarily sat in shotgun because 

1) That was his preference
2) That was the offense

So again, folks seem to be talking about less shotgun like it's this inevitable change and I have yet to see or hear anything that would make that seem iminent. Given the fact that we moved to more shotgun in 2022 and it's Burrow's preference, it seems more likely than not that our offense isn't changing the way many seem to think it will. 

(06-24-2024, 03:24 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: Have there been any comments from Taylor about the change? Have there been any articles written about adjusting the offense? Peyton Manning famously preferred shotgun, and the colts primarily sat in shotgun because 

1) That was his preference
2) That was the offense

So again, folks seem to be talking about less shotgun like it's this inevitable change and I have yet to see or hear anything that would make that seem iminent. Given the fact that we moved to more shotgun in 2022 and it's Burrow's preference, it seems more likely than not that our offense isn't changing the way many seem to think it will. 

Yes, as was mentioned to you by another member, it was stated last year that the difference in offensive attack featured in the San Francisco game, as well as the games after Burrow went down last year; Those were all things that the team had intended to run at the onset of the season, but couldn't due to Joe's calf injury and later the wrist. Joe Burrow is a pretty sharp individual, just because he likes to line up in 3RW, 11 personnel, does not necessarily mean that is the only formation that he's willing to operate out of.

Also, Bengals Offensive Coordinator Dan Pitcher was on record just last week talking about variation of offensive attack being on an opponent by opponent basis. So yes, I do fully expect to see a more diverse offensive attack from the Bengals this year. 

(06-24-2024, 02:30 PM)higgy100 Wrote: You simply cannot compare JB and Mahomes. Mahomes scrambles like nobody else in the league not named Lamar Jackson and runs away and avoid multiple sacks and one of the least scrambling QB's is JB. Just a bad comparison.

You act like Burrow is a statue, but he has ran a decent amount when healthy.
The most designed runs + scrambles that Burrow had in 2022 was the same number that Mahomes had last year, 75.
Both were season highs for each of them.

Now if you are talking about scrambling around but still passing the ball, I dunno if there's a site that tracks that to be able to compare.
However, from what I can recall off the top of my head for games, Burrow is not one of the least scrambling QBs.

I'd put Burrow as more of a scrambler than the likes of Derek Carr, Jared Goff, Matthew Stafford just to name a few.

(06-24-2024, 02:46 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: In 2022, we moved to a shotgun only offense after week 5. Nothing to do with a Burrow injury, but more of Burrow's preference.

That's my point. We were in a shotgun heavy/only offense before Burrow was injured. So, why will that change? 

It's hard to take a mid-season change as the definitive direction that the coaches want to go. It's also hard to say that it was "more of Burrow's preference". Burrow's preference could have been a factor, and it also could have been due to the fact that the Bengals had the leagues second worst rushing attack through the first four weeks. For what it's worth, the Bengals rush offense went from 3.2 yards per carry through the first four weeks to 4.5 yards per carry for the rest of the season after they went to a more shotgun heavy approach. 

There have been reports of the offense making some notable changes, including an interest in lining up under center more. This isn't a direct quote from Zac but an observation from minicamp. I don't know how much weight you're going to put into that. Last season is tough to analyze because, again, they had to make changes on the fly due to Burrow's lingering calf injury. Was that really the offense they wanted to run? I personally doubt it was. This doesn't mean that the Bengals are for sure going to make this change, but there certainly are reasons to believe that they will. 

(06-24-2024, 03:24 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: Have there been any comments from Taylor about the change? Have there been any articles written about adjusting the offense? Peyton Manning famously preferred shotgun, and the colts primarily sat in shotgun because 

1) That was his preference
2) That was the offense

So again, folks seem to be talking about less shotgun like it's this inevitable change and I have yet to see or hear anything that would make that seem iminent. Given the fact that we moved to more shotgun in 2022 and it's Burrow's preference, it seems more likely than not that our offense isn't changing the way many seem to think it will. 

While Manning may have preferred the shotgun, the Colts did not primarily sit in shotgun. They often times weren't even the heaviest shotgun team in the league. More than league average? Certainly. However, the Manning-led Colts never registered more than 35% of snaps in shotgun until 2008, and never logged 50% of snaps from shotgun until 2010-ish. They were still primarily an under center team for most of his tenure. 

(06-24-2024, 02:46 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: In 2022, we moved to a shotgun only offense after week 5. Nothing to do with a Burrow injury, but more of Burrow's preference.

That's my point. We were in a shotgun heavy/only offense before Burrow was injured. So, why will that change? 

Burrow does love the Shotgun, but we saw how good him and the Offense was against the 49ers and Burrow saw how well Browning
did in his absence running the Offense under Center more. It is less predictable and helps the O-line with the QB under Center.

(06-24-2024, 03:06 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Because they've ran it so much that opposing teams, especially our division rivals have learn to predict and plan for it. It has to change, at least to a degree, in order to keep teams playing honest defense.

Spot on as usual Sunset.

(06-24-2024, 04:49 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: It's hard to take a mid-season change as the definitive direction that the coaches want to go. It's also hard to say that it was "more of Burrow's preference". Burrow's preference could have been a factor, and it also could have been due to the fact that the Bengals had the leagues second worst rushing attack through the first four weeks. For what it's worth, the Bengals rush offense went from 3.2 yards per carry through the first four weeks to 4.5 yards per carry for the rest of the season after they went to a more shotgun heavy approach. 

There have been reports of the offense making some notable changes, including an interest in lining up under center more. This isn't a direct quote from Zac but an observation from minicamp. I don't know how much weight you're going to put into that. Last season is tough to analyze because, again, they had to make changes on the fly due to Burrow's lingering calf injury. Was that really the offense they wanted to run? I personally doubt it was. This doesn't mean that the Bengals are for sure going to make this change, but there certainly are reasons to believe that they will. 

Nice post KillerGoose. Having the worst rushing attack sure didn't help and when your OL is always playing on their heels in the Shotgun
not much good can come from it. Most of us have heard the coaches talking about Burrow being under Center more which is great news 
as they aren't just ignoring it, same with Burrow. He saw how well Browning ran the Offense and how our running game improved as the
year went on.