(06-26-2024, 01:24 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Our Defense was one of the worst run stopping Defenses in the league with Reader last year. One player does not make a team good at
stopping the run, fact. The reason we were bad at stopping the run was Hubbard being injured, Trey always being bad at stopping the run,
Logan Wilson being injured, Pratt taking terrible angles, bad communication on the backend and poor tackling.

Stopping the run is a team effort and if we are not better than last year we will be the worst run stopping Defense in the league.

If you want to bet Lou Anarumo won't get this Defense together and playing better than last year I think that is a poor bet.

One player, especially a DT can have a huge impact in stopping the run. The injury excuse....You can use an injury excuse every year if you want to. Fact of the matter, our front 7 (6) was healthier than 90% of NFL teams. 

Logan Wilson - 0 missed games
Germain Pratt - 0 missed games
Sam Hubbard - 2 missed games
Trey Hendrickson - 0 missed games
DJ Reader - 3 missed games
BJ Hill - 0 missed games
----------
Bench:
Zach Carter - 0 missed games
ADG - 4 missed games
Joseph Ossai - 3 missed games
Myles Murphy - 0 missed games
Josh Tupou - missed 2 games


Every team has players playing banged up. Expecting that to be any different this year is naive. Our front 6, starters, and bench combined to miss 10 games. That is incredibly healthy. Using the injury excuse last year is honestly bad karma since we were so healthy there. 

(06-26-2024, 02:16 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: One player, especially a DT can have a huge impact in stopping the run. The injury excuse....You can use an injury excuse every year if you want to. Fact of the matter, our front 7 (6) was healthier than 90% of NFL teams. 

Logan Wilson - 0 missed games
Germain Pratt - 0 missed games
Sam Hubbard - 2 missed games
Trey Hendrickson - 0 missed games
DJ Reader - 3 missed games
BJ Hill - 0 missed games
----------
Bench:
Zach Carter - 0 missed games
ADG - 4 missed games
Joseph Ossai - 3 missed games
Myles Murphy - 0 missed games
Josh Tupou - missed 2 games


Every team has players playing banged up. Expecting that to be any different this year is naive. Our front 6, starters, and bench combined to miss 10 games. That is incredibly healthy. Using the injury excuse last year is honestly bad karma since we were so healthy there. 

Honestly we should of played the backups instead of Hubbard and Wilson IMO. They played a lot but were not even close to 100%.

A backup playing 100% could of been better than they were for all we know. Injury excuses are what they are and just because a lot of 
starters played the majority of the season doesn't mean they were healthier than 90% of the Defenses in the NFL. 

Are you just making this 90% up?

Wouldn't surprise me.

Reader was actually healthy and we were still terrible at stopping the run, I don't know what your argument is. You saying Reader made 
us so much better is a laugh as we were one of the worst with him in there and him healthy.

Also I wasn't making injury excuses, I was listing all the reasons why we were bad against the run. I notice you just left that part out.

(06-26-2024, 02:50 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Honestly we should of played the backups instead of Hubbard and Wilson IMO. They played a lot but were not even close to 100%.

A backup playing 100% could of been better than they were for all we know. Injury excuses are what they are and just because a lot of 
starters played the majority of the season doesn't mean they were healthier than 90% of the Defenses in the NFL. 

Are you just making this 90% up?

Wouldn't surprise me.

Reader was actually healthy and we were still terrible at stopping the run, I don't know what your argument is. You saying Reader made 
us so much better is a laugh as we were one of the worst with him in there and him healthy.

Also I wasn't making injury excuses, I was listing all the reasons why we were bad against the run. I notice you just left that part out.

Ah, the classic "I'm not making excuses, I'm giving reasons" defense. However you want to spin it, the injury "reasons" are silly given the relative health we actually had and the good chance we are actually more injured this year. We had the 3rd fewest games lost in the NFL due to injury defensively. So yes, 90% of the NFL. 

Yes, you can be bad and still have been much worse. It's not like there is a set floor on how bad you can be or how many rush yards you can give up. I'm not sure why that is difficult for you to understand. 

(06-26-2024, 04:02 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: Ah, the classic "I'm not making excuses, I'm giving reasons" defense. However you want to spin it, the injury "reasons" are silly given the relative health we actually had and the good chance we are actually more injured this year. We had the 3rd fewest games lost in the NFL due to injury defensively. So yes, 90% of the NFL. 

Yes, you can be bad and still have been much worse. It's not like there is a set floor on how bad you can be or how many rush yards you can give up. I'm not sure why that is difficult for you to understand. 

This is what happens when someone is so pessimistic that they have to ignore the part of a post that refutes their claims.

Not even speaking of the injuries to our best run stopping End and our best Linebacker. Poor communication, poor tackling along with the youth 
on the backend were more of the reasons for struggling against the run than injuries. But you just ignore that part like I said.

If you think Lou won't have this Defense much more prepared this season after last that is the part I don't understand. If we are much worse 
than last year we need to look for a new DC.

(06-26-2024, 05:42 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This is what happens when someone is so pessimistic that they have to ignore the part of a post that refutes their claims.

Not even speaking of the injuries to our best run stopping End and our best Linebacker. Poor communication, poor tackling along with the youth 
on the backend were more of the reasons for struggling against the run than injuries. But you just ignore that part like I said.

If you think Lou won't have this Defense much more prepared this season after last that is the part I don't understand. If we are much worse 
than last year we need to look for a new DC.

Lol again, you're using injuries to two players that missed a combined 2 games as reasoning. That's so silly it's not worth a response. Logan Wilson's ankle sprain happened in week 11 anyway...we weren't good against the run before that. 

Every single year, you will be able to look at players that miss time or play banged up and you can use that as a reason if you want. We are not going to be healthier on defense this year than we were last year. So pointing to health as a reason why we will be better is stupid, because we were so healthy on defense last year. 

Poor communication: The communication issues were from players in the backend..primarily in the passing game, which led to all those explosives. Or if you think it was communication issues with the front 7...well, what's going to be different since it's the same LBs making the calls? You're reaching with this communication issue narrative knowing full well it was the major issue in the pass game, not as much in run defense. But please, elaborate on exactly what those communcation issues were and how it impacted the run game since you seem to know? 

Poor Tackling: Ok..so who were the poor tacklers? The LBs who are back? The DL that's back? If you're blaming the safeties (which you probably are), if your counting on safeties to make tackles in the run game...newsflash...that's probably happening 4-5+ yards down the field and a sign your front 7 isn't doing their job. And to improve this safety you bring in Geno Stone? Who is not a strong run defender? Battle was actually a good tackler, but Bell will be taking a lot of his snaps so I don't see much of a difference there. 

And if safety tackling was the issue...one of those players is now starting elsewhere...so the issue hasn't been addressed. 

(06-27-2024, 10:41 AM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: Lol again, you're using injuries to two players that missed a combined 2 games as reasoning. That's so silly it's not worth a response. Logan Wilson's ankle sprain happened in week 11 anyway...we weren't good against the run before that. 

Every single year, you will be able to look at players that miss time or play banged up and you can use that as a reason if you want. We are not going to be healthier on defense this year than we were last year. So pointing to health as a reason why we will be better is stupid, because we were so healthy on defense last year. 

Poor communication: The communication issues were from players in the backend..primarily in the passing game, which led to all those explosives. Or if you think it was communication issues with the front 7...well, what's going to be different since it's the same LBs making the calls? You're reaching with this communication issue narrative knowing full well it was the major issue in the pass game, not as much in run defense. But please, elaborate on exactly what those communcation issues were and how it impacted the run game since you seem to know? 

Poor Tackling: Ok..so who were the poor tacklers? The LBs who are back? The DL that's back? If you're blaming the safeties (which you probably are), if your counting on safeties to make tackles in the run game...newsflash...that's probably happening 4-5+ yards down the field and a sign your front 7 isn't doing their job. And to improve this safety you bring in Geno Stone? Who is not a strong run defender? Battle was actually a good tackler, but Bell will be taking a lot of his snaps so I don't see much of a difference there. 

And if safety tackling was the issue...one of those players is now starting elsewhere...so the issue hasn't been addressed. 

If you have to insult me fine, that is your way.

Bates and Bell both leaving was huge in our poor communication last season. Nick Scott was just plain terrible, both Dax and Battle were
in their first years of playing significant snaps and Dax Hill specifically couldn't play FS and replace Bates. Nick Scott sure as hell couldn't 
replace Bell. The entire Defense has to be able to communicate well and be able to play instinctually.

Poor tackling was all across the board, Pratt specifically liked to hold up ball carriers to strip at the ball instead of tackling them. This was
just a poor strategy as ball carriers knew that this is what we were going to do and just made sure to hold the ball high and inside. 

Bringing Vonn Bell back helps a ton and I am sure he will be used more on running downs, Geno Stone should help with the explosive 
plays in the passing game, Battle was fantastic as a rookie, DJ Turner and CTB should just get better as they are young players.

Rankins was a very good run stopper when he was asked to do so with the Jets. They were the #1 run stopping D in the league. BJ 
Hill is more than solid against the run, both rookies in Kris Jenkins and McKinnley Jackson were great at stopping the run in college.

A healthy Sam Hubbard should really help and Myles Murphy should grow as a player in his second season. Trey is just bad at stopping 
the run and is purely a pass rusher.

Like I said, if your bet is we are worse at stopping the run and we give up more explosive plays this season we better be looking for a 
new DC instead of Lou Anarumo. I bet this Defense is much better this season.

(06-27-2024, 01:17 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: If you have to insult me fine, that is your way.

Bates and Bell both leaving was huge in our poor communication last season. Nick Scott was just plain terrible, both Dax and Battle were
in their first years of playing significant snaps and Dax Hill specifically couldn't play FS and replace Bates. Nick Scott sure as hell couldn't 
replace Bell. The entire Defense has to be able to communicate well and be able to play instinctually.

Poor tackling was all across the board, Pratt specifically liked to hold up ball carriers to strip at the ball instead of tackling them. This was
just a poor strategy as ball carriers knew that this is what we were going to do and just made sure to hold the ball high and inside. 

Bringing Vonn Bell back helps a ton and I am sure he will be used more on running downs, Geno Stone should help with the explosive 
plays in the passing game, Battle was fantastic as a rookie, DJ Turner and CTB should just get better as they are young players.

Rankins was a very good run stopper when he was asked to do so with the Jets. They were the #1 run stopping D in the league. BJ 
Hill is more than solid against the run, both rookies in Kris Jenkins and McKinnley Jackson were great at stopping the run in college.

A healthy Sam Hubbard should really help and Myles Murphy should grow as a player in his second season. Trey is just bad at stopping 
the run and is purely a pass rusher.

Like I said, if your bet is we are worse at stopping the run and we give up more explosive plays this season we better be looking for a 
new DC instead of Lou Anarumo. I bet this Defense is much better this season.

I never insulted you. 

Pratt is still our starting ILB if you haven't noticed. If poor tackling was across the board, why will the front 7 magically get better at it? 

This conversation isn't about stopping explosive passing plays. It's specifically about the run defense. So I'm not sure what you comment about Geno Stone has to do with anything. 

Sheldon Rankins isn't better than DJ Reader. 

"both Dax and Battle were in their first years of playing significant snaps" yet three paragraphs later you talk about the impact two rookie DL will have. So if you're explaining away poor play because they were a rookie, why would you then use two other rookies to act like they are going to be good in year 1? 

Stop talking about health when we are bound to be more beat up this year. It's part of the game and you could literally use it every single year to explain away stuff. If you can't overcome two players missing a combined 2 games, you have serious issues. That's a joke. The Steelers were without their Cam Hayward, their top 3 ILBs and top 3 Safeties for several games this year and were still several spots better than us in run defense.

Now you're making up a strawman argument. I never said we would give up more explosive plays. I do think there is a very good chance we are worse against the run this year than we were last year. 

(06-27-2024, 01:54 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: I never insulted you. 

Pratt is still our starting ILB if you haven't noticed. If poor tackling was across the board, why will the front 7 magically get better at it? 

This conversation isn't about stopping explosive passing plays. It's specifically about the run defense. So I'm not sure what you comment about Geno Stone has to do with anything. 

Sheldon Rankins isn't better than DJ Reader. 

"both Dax and Battle were in their first years of playing significant snaps" yet three paragraphs later you talk about the impact two rookie DL will have. So if you're explaining away poor play because they were a rookie, why would you then use two other rookies to act like they are going to be good in year 1? 

Stop talking about health when we are bound to be more beat up this year. It's part of the game and you could literally use it every single year to explain away stuff. If you can't overcome two players missing a combined 2 games, you have serious issues. That's a joke. The Steelers were without their Cam Hayward, their top 3 ILBs and top 3 Safeties for several games this year and were still several spots better than us in run defense.

Now you're making up a strawman argument. I never said we would give up more explosive plays. I do think there is a very good chance we are worse against the run this year than we were last year. 

Calling my argument silly and stupid is a bit of an insult lol

Pratt was great the year before last year, same with Wilson. I don't think these guys just forgot how to play football like you seem to be 
insinuating. Battle was great as a rookie as I said, Nick Scott was the biggest problem and you left that part out as well. If Hubbard and 
Wilson are healthy this year it will help the run Defense. Not saying the entire Defense as a whole should be healthier, just these two 
should help.

Sheldon Rankins is one hell of a lot better pass rusher than DJ Reader and if he puts his mind to stopping the run can be a very good 
run stopper, maybe not DJ Reader, but very good. We have to rely on rookie DT's behind BJ Hill and Rankins, just the way it is. I hope 
one of them is as good as Jordan Battle was as a rookie.

Good coaching can make up for injuries, Lou needs to be much better this year in coaching up the youth and backups in case we are 
more injured than last year. I just hope Lou benches a starter if he is badly injured like both Hubbard and Wilson was late in the year.

I am talking about the Defense as a whole should be better, if you don't have an argument otherwise, that is your problem and doesn't
make my argument a strawman.

I would have preferred that the OP replace the word "fear" with "respect." I have no respect for Cleveland (sex offender QB) or Pittsburgh (too many reasons to list). I do respect Baltimore. They are the division champions until we take it away from them. And we will.

(06-27-2024, 02:16 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Calling my argument silly and stupid is a bit of an insult lol

Pratt was great the year before last year, same with Wilson. I don't think these guys just forgot how to play football like you seem to be 
insinuating. Battle was great as a rookie as I said, Nick Scott was the biggest problem and you left that part out as well. If Hubbard and 
Wilson are healthy this year it will help the run Defense. Not saying the entire Defense as a whole should be healthier, just these two 
should help.

Sheldon Rankins is one hell of a lot better pass rusher than DJ Reader and if he puts his mind to stopping the run can be a very good 
run stopper, maybe not DJ Reader, but very good. We have to rely on rookie DT's behind BJ Hill and Rankins, just the way it is. I hope 
one of them is as good as Jordan Battle was as a rookie.

Good coaching can make up for injuries, Lou needs to be much better this year in coaching up the youth and backups in case we are 
more injured than last year. I just hope Lou benches a starter if he is badly injured like both Hubbard and Wilson was late in the year.

I am talking about the Defense as a whole should be better, if you don't have an argument otherwise, that is your problem and doesn't
make my argument a strawman.

Once again..you're just making up a strawman argument. I never said your argument was stupid. And even if I did say your argument is stupid, that's not calling you stupid. 

Lol, you realize this conversation started because I said "Why are you sure we will be better at stopping the run after losing the best run-stuffing DT in the league? That seems like blind optimism. "

I never said anything about the pass defense not improving because I think it will. Definition of Strawman argument buddy...

(06-28-2024, 10:57 AM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: Once again..you're just making up a strawman argument. I never said your argument was stupid. And even if I did say your argument is stupid, that's not calling you stupid. 

Lol, you realize this conversation started because I said "Why are you sure we will be better at stopping the run after losing the best run-stuffing DT in the league? That seems like blind optimism. "

I never said anything about the pass defense not improving because I think it will. Definition of Strawman argument buddy...

Bottom line, when you are one of the worst run stopping Defenses in the league you shouldn't get worse just because one player left that 
was oft injured and was on one of the worst run stopping Defenses in the league. The DC in the name of Lou Anarumo needs to get this shit
together and I believe he will even if you don't.

We don't even know if DJ Reader will ever play a snap again in the NFL or even be a shadow of his old self.

Our run Defense was top 5 a couple years ago, it could be at the very least mid pack especially with an Offense that scores a lot and makes 
other teams throw the ball to catch up.

(06-28-2024, 10:57 AM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: Once again..you're just making up a strawman argument. I never said your argument was stupid. And even if I did say your argument is stupid, that's not calling you stupid. 

Lol, you realize this conversation started because I said "Why are you sure we will be better at stopping the run after losing the best run-stuffing DT in the league? That seems like blind optimism. "

I never said anything about the pass defense not improving because I think it will. Definition of Strawman argument buddy...

Yes, and other posters responded with very logical reasons why the entire defense will perform better this season, yet you dismissed them as not valid. The same as you cling to some stats about shotgun snap percentage in seasons past as a reason to claim that nothing should be different on offense, yet the Bengal coaches have been quoted as saying that offensive attack will vary on an opponent to opponent basis.

Your premise that nothing will change based upon past observations holds little merit when predicting how a team will perform in a league where strategies are constantly evolving.

(06-29-2024, 11:22 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Bottom line, when you are one of the worst run stopping Defenses in the league you shouldn't get worse just because one player left that 
was oft injured and was on one of the worst run stopping Defenses in the league. The DC in the name of Lou Anarumo needs to get this shit
together and I believe he will even if you don't.

We don't even know if DJ Reader will ever play a snap again in the NFL or even be a shadow of his old self.

Our run Defense was top 5 a couple years ago, it could be at the very least mid pack especially with an Offense that scores a lot and makes 
other teams throw the ball to catch up.

Plus one has to look at WHY they were so bad against the run. And again the problem was explosive plays - in this case the Hubbard playing injured coupled with Trey not being the best at run D resulted in us getting killed by runs to the edges blowing contain. And if that wasn't enough the safety issues on alignments per Lou's own statement had both LBs playing hesitant because they lacked confidence the secondary or even they were properly set. 

As to new players helping, Bell and Stone at Safety gives a huge injection of IQ, which flows down to the LBers being confident everything is correctly set. Then on the DL we went from one great DT (assuming Reader fully recovers and comes back quickly which was a BIG if), one solid DT (BJ Hill) and then falling off a cliff to a DT room that while maybe not as high end at the top has an above average DT in Rankins, then Hill who is solid to slightly above average and then Jenkins who was elite in run defense in college and Jackson who was very good against the run also. Top to bottom this is a better DT room flat out. Meanwhile Hubbard should be back to 100% and Murphy now has another year under his belt (and you could see him starting to pick it up as the season progressed) plus Ossai plus Sample plus our new EDGE pick Cedric Johnson who has the physical tools just needs to be coached up as he is kinda raw. 

Frankly I don't see how we DON'T improve on defense overall and versus the run.

(06-27-2024, 01:54 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: I never insulted you. 

Pratt is still our starting ILB if you haven't noticed. If poor tackling was across the board, why will the front 7 magically get better at it? 

This conversation isn't about stopping explosive passing plays. It's specifically about the run defense. So I'm not sure what you comment about Geno Stone has to do with anything. 

Sheldon Rankins isn't better than DJ Reader. 

"both Dax and Battle were in their first years of playing significant snaps" yet three paragraphs later you talk about the impact two rookie DL will have. So if you're explaining away poor play because they were a rookie, why would you then use two other rookies to act like they are going to be good in year 1? 

Stop talking about health when we are bound to be more beat up this year. It's part of the game and you could literally use it every single year to explain away stuff. If you can't overcome two players missing a combined 2 games, you have serious issues. That's a joke. The Steelers were without their Cam Hayward, their top 3 ILBs and top 3 Safeties for several games this year and were still several spots better than us in run defense.

Now you're making up a strawman argument. I never said we would give up more explosive plays. I do think there is a very good chance we are worse against the run this year than we were last year. 

Sheldon is not as good against the run as DJ. But DJ was more immovable or disruptive. Sheldon is quicker and a much better pass rusher. We aren’t worse off overall

I fear Zac Taylor. By most accounts he is the worst head coach in the division and has been 10-20 in the division since he got here. I keep hearing how hard it is to gameplan against the division because "we know each other too well". What BS. We don't play well even when we are the better team. The other team just punches us in the mouth and we fold. Every AFCN game we play makes me miss Burfict.

(06-30-2024, 06:28 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Sheldon is not as good against the run as DJ. But DJ was more immovable or disruptive. Sheldon is quicker and a much better pass rusher. We aren’t worse off overall

This is specifically about our run defense so thanks for making my point. 

(06-30-2024, 02:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yes, and other posters responded with very logical reasons why the entire defense will perform better this season, yet you dismissed them as not valid. The same as you cling to some stats about shotgun snap percentage in seasons past as a reason to claim that nothing should be different on offense, yet the Bengal coaches have been quoted as saying that offensive attack will vary on an opponent to opponent basis.

Your premise that nothing will change based upon past observations holds little merit when predicting how a team will perform in a league where strategies are constantly evolving.

If my point is that I don't see a good reason to believe that our run defense would be better, why would I not dismiss somebody's response that is arguing that the entire defense would be better? That is not my argument so it's irrelevant. 

I also probably agree the entire defense should be better. But I have little reason to believe the run defense will be. However, that has nothing to do with what my point is. 

If the other major argument is our health on defense, yes, that's a terrible argument because we were a very healthy defense last year and in we will very likely be more banged up next year. So, if the odds are that we will be MORE HURT next year, why would improved health be a valid argument? 

(07-01-2024, 01:28 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: If my point is that I don't see a good reason to believe that our run defense would be better, why would I not dismiss somebody's response that is arguing that the entire defense would be better? That is not my argument so it's irrelevant. 

I also probably agree the entire defense should be better. But I have little reason to believe the run defense will be. However, that has nothing to do with what my point is. 

If the other major argument is our health on defense, yes, that's a terrible argument because we were a very healthy defense last year and in we will very likely be more banged up next year. So, if the odds are that we will be MORE HURT next year, why would improved health be a valid argument? 

You don't feel that having an improvement at the Safety position will have an impact on how well the rushing defense performs? If was revealed that the LBs played tentatively last season, due to having inexperience calling the secondary last season. Having an experienced Safety in Bell calling the secondary will allow Wilson and Pratt to focus on what is in front of them, rather than being unsure of what is going on behind them.

(07-01-2024, 02:10 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You don't feel that having an improvement at the Safety position will have an impact on how well the rushing defense performs? If was revealed that the LBs played tentatively last season, due to having inexperience calling the secondary last season. Having an experienced Safety in Bell calling the secondary will allow Wilson and Pratt to focus on what is in front of them, rather than being unsure of what is going on behind them.

I've played enough LB myself to know the impact or lack of impact safety communication has on the run game. While yes, there communication on the backend could have played a part but 1) usually the LBs are making the calls and are helping the safeties determine who is going to spin into the box when needed 2) Looking back at a lot of our games, it was rare that the issue on runs was a safety not spinning into the box. 

That said, it certainly happened. I just don't think those rare occurrences being fixed will outweigh loosing the best run stopping DT in the league. 

Baltimore got stronger this off season, so that should be the obvious answer.