Man, we usually start criticizing the "scheme" at least three games into the season.

They can't run the ball. Teams don't respect it. They play cover two and take away any resemblance of a mid to deep passing attack or any explosive plays.

It's happening all over the league. No one was moving the ball week 1.

The NFL and teams will evolve and start leaning on a power run game again to beat all these cover 2 looks. It's all cyclical.

I just keep waiting game-after-game for a Burrow QB'ed offense to be a high scoring and unstoppable squad when the offense has the ball. I just don't get why it cannot happen.

(09-08-2024, 11:43 PM)J24 Wrote: Players make schemes work not the other way around. Scheme is not the issue the players are. Our offensive line has never been a + and when you take out Tee and have Chase on a pitch count the offense will struggle.
People put way too much blame or credit too coaches for the success or lack of success of the team. Any professional sports team success is predicated on the strength of the roster.

You know what makes Bobby Petrino a great college OC? He tailors his offense to his personnel.
Got a QB with a cannon (Mallet)? Got a mediocre tough guy? Got Marmar? Got marmar 2.0? No problem for him devising an effective, or even devastating offense.

(09-08-2024, 11:20 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Our offensive scheme seems inadequate. Our wrs don't get open. The run game underperforms no matter how many lineman we bring in.

I think the issue is largely scheme. Going Cover 2 basically blows our offense up.

In our SB year, how many big plays came from Chase or Higgins making a crazy good catch or run after catch? That's not a scheme, it's relying on individual talent to overcome lack of scheme.

I saw some next generation stats and Burrow only threw 5 or 6 balls over 10 yards. Dink and dunk.

Now that Burrow is highly paid, it takes salary away from other parts of the team. So you have less veterans and more young guys to make mistakes. And our scheme doesn't help them.

The receivers did f*** all yesterday.

Irwin played 33 snaps (65%) and had 1 reception for 6 yards.
Iosivas played 51 snaps (100%) and had 3 receptions for 26 yards plus the DPI.
Gesicki and Hudson combined played 27 snaps and had 5 rec for 36 yards. Hudson also had the fumble and Gesicki had the drop in the EZ. I believe it was Hudson too who couldn't secure the catch on the throw that was slightly tipped at the LOS.
All and Sample combined played 39 snaps and had a goose egg on the receiving stat sheet.
Charlie Jones saw 8 snaps and just 1 rec for 5 yards.
Burton saw 4 snaps and also a goose egg.

Time for Taylor and Pitcher to go back to the war room and figure out how to attack the Cover 2 (again).
This offense doesn't have many guys like the 2000's Patriots who can catch a pass 5 yards and take it an extra 10+ YAC.

Yesterday the Patriots had zero respect for the Bengals offense. They had to predict that there was a good chance for no need to respect the run game. They knew whether it's Burrow or Taylor, or whatever the reason is, Bengals don't like to run the ball and when they do they will pretty much know each time. Then with Chase not being full game speed ready, they had zero respect for any other receiver out there and all the backup tight end that were rotating, and rightfully so. This made their objectives quite easier on the whole and they were trying to rattle Burrow as much as possible with a cover two. And it worked even though Burrow wasn't pressured a whole lot apparently percentage wise but he was forced to check down often because he had no options with the receiver options out there not getting open (scheme or talent or both? I say both).

Bottom line in my opinion, the way this offense was ran was stale and predictable. Is Burrow audibling too much out of the run, probably, did the Bengals screw up in not bringing in a veteran OC (a big yes imo), and who is actually in charge of this offense? I think the only way this offense will work is if both Tee and Chase are out there. Otherwise unless something changes by Taylor, probably see way too many games like this by the offense.

(09-09-2024, 03:22 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Yeah, that’s just not true.  There’s countless examples of teams who seem to be able to win regardless of who their players are.  Brady, Mahomes, whoever the QB is in San Fran under Shanahan.  

Great players can mask a poor scheme.  Biggest tell is what happens when your great players are hurt.   Another tell is that our backups can never seem to win against other teams backups in preseason.   Zac Taylor’s scheme is absolute shit.

1.) You just named 2 teams with the best rosters in the NFL and the greatest dynasty ever.

2.) Didn’t we go 4 and 3 with our Backup QB last season? Was Zac scheme bad then?

I know fans overreact week 1 but I agree with the OP. The run game and beating cover 2 has been an issue for years now and Frank Pollock needs to be on the hot seat. We've spent big on the O-line Brown, Cappa, Karras and 4/5 starters have been playing together so chemistry shouldn't be an issue. Joe Mixon had 159 yards rushing, and the Pats mauled us with two backup guards one being  Michael Jordan. I know Joe loves shotgun but I'd be open top more looks under center. Play calling wise zero creativity, running 3 yard routes multiple times well short of the sticks needs to be banished. The 4 and 2 call was a joke.

(09-09-2024, 06:52 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

Next Gen Stats charts from the Bengals loss to the Patriots@NextGenStats pic.twitter.com/Z9FDOBPwlZ

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) September 8, 2024

The Bengals call plays like the Steelers did when Roethlisberger was out and Charlie Batch was the QB.

They do this to start the season every year. They go into a shell to protect Burrow.

It's simple: Either it's scheme (Or) the WR room needs rebuilt.

(09-09-2024, 09:18 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Man, we usually start criticizing the "scheme" at least three games into the season.

They can't run the ball. Teams don't respect it. They play cover two and take away any resemblance of a mid to deep passing attack or any explosive plays.

It's happening all over the league. No one was moving the ball week 1.

The NFL and teams will evolve and start leaning on a power run game again to beat all these cover 2 looks. It's all cyclical.

Cover 2 isn't some new fangled thing. It's a very, very basic thing.

IF a team going into Cover 2 just totally messes up the offense, then something is very wrong.

(09-09-2024, 09:34 AM)ochocincos Wrote: The receivers did f*** all yesterday.

Irwin played 33 snaps (65%) and had 1 reception for 6 yards.
Iosivas played 51 snaps (100%) and had 3 receptions for 26 yards plus the DPI.
Gesicki and Hudson combined played 27 snaps and had 5 rec for 36 yards. Hudson also had the fumble and Gesicki had the drop in the EZ. I believe it was Hudson too who couldn't secure the catch on the throw that was slightly tipped at the LOS.
All and Sample combined played 39 snaps and had a goose egg on the receiving stat sheet.
Charlie Jones saw 8 snaps and just 1 rec for 5 yards.
Burton saw 4 snaps and also a goose egg.

Time for Taylor and Pitcher to go back to the war room and figure out how to attack the Cover 2 (again).
This offense doesn't have many guys like the 2000's Patriots who can catch a pass 5 yards and take it an extra 10+ YAC.

And...I saw that Burrow had great pocked time. He was pressured at a very low rate.

(09-09-2024, 09:56 AM)lone bengal Wrote: I know fans overreact week 1 but I agree with the OP. The run game and beating cover 2 has been an issue for years now and Frank Pollock needs to be on the hot seat. We've spent big on the O-line Brown, Cappa, Karras and 4/5 starters have been playing together so chemistry shouldn't be an issue. Joe Mixon had 159 yards rushing, and the Pats mauled us with two backup guards one being  Michael Jordan. I know Joe loves shotgun but I'd be open top more looks under center. Play calling wise zero creativity, running 3 yard routes multiple times well short of the sticks needs to be banished. The 4 and 2 call was a joke.

The big issue with shotgun vs under center is they telegraph their plays. Out of shotgun, they usually pass. Under center, they usually run.

We don't have the horses at WR or RB to get open when the defense knows what's coming.

One point I want to make is that A LOT of our explosive plays are short, quick slants to guys like Chase that hit a seam and take it 50 yards. They don't always have to be 50 yards in the air.

(09-08-2024, 11:20 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Our offensive scheme seems inadequate. Our wrs don't get open. The run game underperforms no matter how many lineman we bring in.

I think the issue is largely scheme. Going Cover 2 basically blows our offense up.

In our SB year, how many big plays came from Chase or Higgins making a crazy good catch or run after catch? That's not a scheme, it's relying on individual talent to overcome lack of scheme.

I saw some next generation stats and Burrow only threw 5 or 6 balls over 10 yards. Dink and dunk.

Now that Burrow is highly paid, it takes salary away from other parts of the team. So you have less veterans and more young guys to make mistakes. And our scheme doesn't help them.

Yesterday I don't think it was scheme that killed us.  It was the game plan and not riding the hot hands.

Moss had 9 carries for 44 yards with a 4.9 ypc average.  He was effective running the ball.  They just didn't stick with him.  Of course, Brown had 3 carries for 11 yards, 3.7 ypc, so based on that, the run game issue isn't a scheme issue.  The issues are talent and and just not riding the hot hand.

In the pass game, Chase caught all 6 of his targets for 62 yards.  Yoshi also had 6 Targets, but only 3 catches for 26 yards.  There's zero reason for Yoshi to get getting as many targets as Chase.  None.  But, once again, we don't ride the hot hand.  It almost seemed like they were trying to send a message to Chase that "Oh, we can without you", except it blew up in their face.  And nobody else was really effective with their targets.  Hudson and Gesicki had 2 and 3 catches on 3 and 4 targets, respectively, but only 18 yards a piece.  Irwin had 1 catch for 6 yards in 2 targets.  Jones 1 for 1 for 5.  Moss and Brown had 2/4/17 and 3/3/12, respectively.

Reality is, this pee wee "everyone gets to touch the ball so their parents don't get mad" philosophy needs to go.  You can do it when you're stacked at the skill positions.  We aren't.  If one of the lesser guys is tearing it up, sure, feed him, but we need to be focused on getting our studs touches.

(09-09-2024, 07:42 AM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: I miss the Burrow that threw for 525 against the Ravens in 2021. That was a long time ago. Where the hell is Air Burrow.

Obviously he's not throwing for 525 a game, but isn't Burrow's strength airing it out since he can drop the ball to the right spot when passing? If the outcome of whatever yesterday's offensive game plan is a loss then what is the harm in letting Burrow sling the ball down field more?

I agree. I want Air Burrow back.

(09-09-2024, 10:20 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Cover 2 isn't some new fangled thing. It's a very, very basic thing.

IF a team going into Cover 2 just totally messes up the offense, then something is very wrong.

Well, the easiest way to beat Cover 2 is run against it and force the defense out of it.

Moss averaged 4.9 ypc..but only 9 carries.  Not enough to take the Pats out of it.

Taking ONLY what the defense gives is a schematic issue.  We have faced the Cover 2 almost exclusively for 3 years now.  A team must still take shots down the field even if it requires 5 verticals out of an empty backfield once in a while.  

If a defense is shutting down receivers where is the wheel route to Chase Brown?  What LB is staying with him?

Backs averaged 5 yds per touch they are the ONLY players capable of YAC outside of Ja'Marr, get them the ball in space.

If scheme truly wasnt an issue on defense then it doesnt matter, we just suck really bad.  NE had to run the ball with a scrub QB, half an oline, new OC and we were could not stop them.

(09-09-2024, 09:18 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Man, we usually start criticizing the "scheme" at least three games into the season.

They can't run the ball. Teams don't respect it. They play cover two and take away any resemblance of a mid to deep passing attack or any explosive plays.

It's happening all over the league. No one was moving the ball week 1.

The NFL and teams will evolve and start leaning on a power run game again to beat all these cover 2 looks. It's all cyclical.

That's not what I saw watching the Rams/Lions game.

(09-08-2024, 11:20 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Our offensive scheme seems inadequate. Our wrs don't get open. The run game underperforms no matter how many lineman we bring in.

I think the issue is largely scheme. Going Cover 2 basically blows our offense up.

In our SB year, how many big plays came from Chase or Higgins making a crazy good catch or run after catch? That's not a scheme, it's relying on individual talent to overcome lack of scheme.

I saw some next generation stats and Burrow only threw 5 or 6 balls over 10 yards. Dink and dunk.

Now that Burrow is highly paid, it takes salary away from other parts of the team. So you have less veterans and more young guys to make mistakes. And our scheme doesn't help them.

I've been saying this for years. Where's soonerpace so he can argue against it like he did with me.

Michael Jordan? The Jordan that got Burrow's knee torn up?

(09-09-2024, 09:13 AM)CJ2etc Wrote: Seems like all of our receiver patterns are hooks.  Are we not allowed to catch the ball while moving vertically?  Did the league pass a rule just for the bengals?

Yea, it’s called I am the receivers coach and I don’t know any better.