(12-12-2024, 11:20 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: We've seen it before, elite athletes essentially "playing" GM. Lebron did it in the NBA, Aaron Rodgers has done it in the NFL. Stars almost holding their front office "hostage", making them sign players they are friends with or thinking they know what's best for the team through roster building input/control.

Burrow is essentially doing that with the Tee situation. He made the comment that Tee is a "need" and basically put the front office on notice.

Everyone has an opinion on the Tee situation, but it's certainly understandable if the Bengals were to let him go and reinvest the money saved by upgrading other areas of the team that are bigger needs - defense anyone? Some would say this is what they SHOULD do and its clear it's what they intended on doing.

Everyone is fired up Burrow is speaking out, but he's walking a fine line. People turned on Lebron for destroying some of the teams he's been on in the past through "passive" GMing. Whether it works out or not, Burrow is now going down the route of "passive" GM. I hope it doesn't come back to bite him.

Seeing as how the guy who pays himself a GM salary (Mike) is inarguably the worst GM during his 30+ year tenure, I’d say Burrow can’t do any worse. Tobin et al have sucked at drafting, the FO has sucked deciding who to let walk in FA and what free agents to pursue. Let Joe have some influence, he’s the common denominator of all these clowns’ successes.

(12-12-2024, 03:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Which we will do not by spending all our cap space keeping the team as it's currently constructed. Burrow seems to love passing the ball, so when he plays GM he's going to focus on pass catchers. That's why you listen to what he wants/prefers, but also just be the responsible adult in the room as the coaches and tell him no, he needs to do something he doesn't prefer for the good of the team. This was also my response to everyone who always said "Burrow prefers it that way" when it came to empty backfields, playing nearly exclusively in shotgun, giving Trenton Irwin snaps and targets, etc. Just because a player prefers it that way doesn't mean that's the right call for what the team needs to win. The same as bringing in Allen Lazard and Randall Cobb wasn't the right call for the Jets despite their QB preferring them but nobody was willing to tell him no for the good of the team. That's why you have coaches to do the things that players might not prefer to do but need to be done. Heck, the Eagles players all hated doing the Tush Push, but it kept working so coaches kept calling it. 

Offensively need to be able to run the ball, including running the ball from under center so we can have effective play action passes. Defensively we need to be at least competent. Even if Burrow would prefer to spend all the money on WRs.

We're simply not good enough drafting and our FO will never change enough to allow us to be consistently good enough at drafting to rely on so much of the team to be great young guys on rookie contracts. So we'll need to spend money on bringing in the talent.

I just had a flashback of a QB saying he was retiring if the FO didn't get him help.
I do agree with you though

(12-12-2024, 11:32 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: We'll find out how much of a need that Higgins is when we see how much Burrow and Chase are willing to sacrifice to make the deal financially viable to the team, AND leaving enough to build the defense (again...).

The Bengals have the cap money to sign all three, the problem is Mike and the family doesn’t have that giant pile of liquid cash to hand out modern style NFL contracts. The players want guaranteed money, the Brown family does not want to hand out guaranteed money. It’s why you see all these pennypinching contracts and pissed off players. The times have passed by the Brown family. They need to start getting more aggressive and creative with contracts, restructure the front office with a more robust scouting/player development department, or sell the team. Otherwise they can’t keep up with the modern NFL. If they do nothing we’re likely doomed to mediocrity as fans.

(12-12-2024, 11:32 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: We'll find out how much of a need that Higgins is when we see how much Burrow and Chase are willing to sacrifice to make the deal financially viable to the team, AND leaving enough to build the defense (again...).

Well said. We will see, they will have to put their money where their mouth is if they want to keep the trio together that bad.

It will take sacrifices from all 3 honestly. Tee has to take into account his injury history.

Honestly don't see it happening now that I think about it. Ja'Marr is going to get paid the most of any WR and he deserves it.

I don't see him taking a discount and Burrow didn't in the first place so, this is probably just fake postering by Joe.

The OL needs to be where Joe wants help and a Defense that can actually make stops at big times in games.

I feel like players telling Mike Brown what to do has usually been the first step towards said players being told "no" and then wanting out.

Burrow can give it a shot, but history should tell him he needs to have a plan if he's stymied.

(12-12-2024, 03:45 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I feel like players telling Mike Brown what to do has usually been the first step towards said players being told "no" and then wanting out.

Burrow can give it a shot, but history should tell him he needs to have a plan if he's stymied.

Yeah, Mikey Boy is stubborn. Still think it is different now with the family running things, not JUST Mikey Boy...

(12-12-2024, 03:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, Mikey Boy is stubborn. Still think it is different now with the family running things, not JUST Mikey Boy...

It's still a steep hill. This is basically Burrow trying to convince a royal family to hand control of the crown over to him. 

(12-12-2024, 03:54 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It's still a steep hill. This is basically Burrow trying to convince a royal family to hand control of the crown over to him. 

I don't think he is going that far...

He just wants Tee here honestly and I think the family does as well. But it may hurt the team as we have lots of holes to fill and we cannot have 
extending Tee hurting the team. I am sure everyone is on the same page here. We will see what this all means since Tee fired his agent it is actually 
a possibility. I didn't think it was possible before this seeing that agent's history with his clients.

All I know is Joe didn't take a discount in the first place to keep both Ja'Marr and Tee and I know Ja'Marr isn't going to take a discount.

(12-12-2024, 03:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Which we will do not by spending all our cap space keeping the team as it's currently constructed. Burrow seems to love passing the ball, so when he plays GM he's going to focus on pass catchers. That's why you listen to what he wants/prefers, but also just be the responsible adult in the room as the coaches and tell him no, he needs to do something he doesn't prefer for the good of the team. This was also my response to everyone who always said "Burrow prefers it that way" when it came to empty backfields, playing nearly exclusively in shotgun, giving Trenton Irwin snaps and targets, etc. Just because a player prefers it that way doesn't mean that's the right call for what the team needs to win. The same as bringing in Allen Lazard and Randall Cobb wasn't the right call for the Jets despite their QB preferring them but nobody was willing to tell him no for the good of the team. That's why you have coaches to do the things that players might not prefer to do but need to be done. Heck, the Eagles players all hated doing the Tush Push, but it kept working so coaches kept calling it. 

Offensively need to be able to run the ball, including running the ball from under center so we can have effective play action passes. Defensively we need to be at least competent. Even if Burrow would prefer to spend all the money on WRs.

We're simply not good enough drafting and our FO will never change enough to allow us to be consistently good enough at drafting to rely on so much of the team to be great young guys on rookie contracts. So we'll need to spend money on bringing in the talent.

No less an authority than Tom Brady was commenting on that very thing a couple weeks ago during a game. Something like "get your team running the ball effectively and it opens up play action and other things"

But our coaching staff won't demand it, it sure seems.

As to Joe playing GM, he seems to be more or less demanding Tee: [/url]
[url=https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/joe-burrow-puts-even-more-pressure-on-bengals-about-tee-higgins/ar-AA1vJklC?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=ASTS&cvid=ef18c3c151e34d7ba76ec353873d2d2a&ei=14]Joe Burrow puts even more pressure on Bengals about Tee Higgins

I guess he "thinks" he can take it all on his shoulders and prevail. Hell we don't need no stinking badges defense.

So is anyone going to buy some defensive players or...

Burrow + Chase + Tee are:
5-8 lol
No Super Bowl wins.

They are an insanely talented trio - but - it’s clear we need a revamped D for wins and eventually, a SB win.

Start loving on Yoshi. That’s the most we can afford as a replacement.

Even a mediocre D would be huge.

(12-12-2024, 02:25 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: as much as keeping Tee would be Great  the $$$$$$needs to go to the Defense to fix that or else we will stay the Stafford lions

The money is already in the defense and they suck. Along with almost all of our top draft picks from the last 4 years. 

The Bengals are top 5 in most expensive defense in the NFL in 2024. Cut Hubbard, Pratt, Rankins, Stone, Bell. Lots of money freed up with pretty much no loss. 

The Bengals were in the top 5 for money paid to the defense in 2021, 2022, 2023, and 2024.

(12-12-2024, 09:16 PM)Destro Wrote: So is anyone going to buy some defensive players or...

There are not really any game changers on D in FA. Some nice players. But nothing really elite. Especially on the line and at CB.

There guys who are good at one thing but poor at the other. We have guys like that. Hilton is the #1 run defending CB in the NFL via PFF. Karras is a top 5 pass protecting C, and OBJ is a very good pass protecting LT. Problems? Hilton is below average in coverage, Karras bottom 10 run blocker, and OBJ very poor. 

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-free-agents-by-position/

The #1 DE is Hassan Reddick, #2 Josh Sweat, #3 Khalil Mack. Mack is older, Reddick two years removed from being productive, and Sweat good but hardly great. 

At DT BJ Hill is #4, Odighizuwa from Dallas is #1, Milton Williams from Philly #2, and Onwuzurike from Detroit #3. The first two guys are good pass rushers but poor run defenders. Onwuzurike is similar to Hill, more even but benefitting from playing next to Reader. 

There are some very good/excellent guards and a couple safeties. I'd rather spend big there, if anywhere, than overpay for above average/limited guys in a thin FA year. 

We are $62 mil under according to OTC, with 42 guys signed, not counting the PS. The PS + the picks + is around $13, so say $49. With 48 guys. 

Restructuring Burrow saves us $19. So back to $68. Worst case, tag Tee for $25, $43 left at 49. Chase's extention will only be the prorated bonus and he is on for $21.8 already. Say $8 mil. So $35

Cut Rankins and give Hill (or another FA DT) his money. Roughly a wash, $35 mil at 49. Cut Cappa and pay big for a premium guard (save $8 spend $18). So $25 mil left at 49. Pay Gesicki $5. $20 at 50 guys. 

Cut Stone. That gets you to $26.5 at 49 guys. If we have ANY brains at all with Tee & some of the other deals, we should be able to save $5-$10 mil on the cap the first year ynder what I threw out. $30-$35 mil for a few more FAs (S, DE, DT) and guys we may want to bring back (Ossai, ADG, Hudson, Hilton?). 

And if you want to save more, Hubbard, Moss, and Drew Sample are still cuttable and get you another $15 if you want. McPherson doesn't save us much, but doesn't cost after June 1. 

Not exact science here, of course. But just ballparking.

We can be pretty sure Harmon, Grant, and Nolen will be there at #11. Harmon is a DT/Edge, Nolen a DT, and Grant more of a DT/NT at 339. Pick your guy and work FA to compliment. If you want Grant, then chase pass rushing DTs. If you want Harmon or Nolen, then go after bigger NT types and/or bring Hill back. 

(12-13-2024, 01:29 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: There are not really any game changers on D in FA. Some nice players. But nothing really elite. Especially on the line and at CB.

There guys who are good at one thing but poor at the other. We have guys like that. Hilton is the #1 run defending CB in the NFL via PFF. Karras is a top 5 pass protecting C, and OBJ is a very good pass protecting LT. Problems? Hilton is below average in coverage, Karras bottom 10 run blocker, and OBJ very poor. 

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-free-agents-by-position/

The #1 DE is Hassan Reddick, #2 Josh Sweat, #3 Khalil Mack. Mack is older, Reddick two years removed from being productive, and Sweat good but hardly great. 

At DT BJ Hill is #4, Odighizuwa from Dallas is #1, Milton Williams from Philly #2, and Onwuzurike from Detroit #3. The first two guys are good pass rushers but poor run defenders. Onwuzurike is similar to Hill, more even but benefitting from playing next to Reader. 

There are some very good/excellent guards and a couple safeties. I'd rather spend big there, if anywhere, than overpay for above average/limited guys in a thin FA year. 

We are $62 mil under according to OTC, with 42 guys signed, not counting the PS. The PS + the picks + is around $13, so say $49. With 48 guys. 

Restructuring Burrow saves us $19. So back to $68. Worst case, tag Tee for $25, $43 left at 49. Chase's extention will only be the prorated bonus and he is on for $21.8 already. Say $8 mil. So $35

Cut Rankins and give Hill (or another FA DT) his money. Roughly a wash, $35 mil at 49. Cut Cappa and pay big for a premium guard (save $8 spend $18). So $25 mil left at 49. Pay Gesicki $5. $20 at 50 guys. 

Cut Stone. That gets you to $26.5 at 49 guys. If we have ANY brains at all with Tee & some of the other deals, we should be able to save $5-$10 mil on the cap the first year ynder what I threw out. $30-$35 mil for a few more FAs (S, DE, DT) and guys we may want to bring back (Ossai, ADG, Hudson, Hilton?). 

And if you want to save more, Hubbard, Moss, and Drew Sample are still cuttable and get you another $15 if you want. McPherson doesn't save us much, but doesn't cost after June 1. 

Not exact science here, of course. But just ballparking.

We can be pretty sure Harmon, Grant, and Nolen will be there at #11. Harmon is a DT/Edge, Nolen a DT, and Grant more of a DT/NT at 339. Pick your guy and work FA to compliment. If you want Grant, then chase pass rushing DTs. If you want Harmon or Nolen, then go after bigger NT types and/or bring Hill back. 

I am kind of ready to move on from BJ Hill. I think Kris Jenkins can fill his void. Still need a stud DT, though. 

(12-12-2024, 12:53 PM)PCB Bengal Fan Wrote: The problem with trusting the Bengals FO is they say they need money to extend people when it's their time, but when that time comes they don't extend them. We never go to the cap or over.....ever. How far were they under the cap in 21 and 22? We need money for Bates...they let him walk, we need money for Tee....they'll let him walk, we need money for Chase....now we need more money.

This narrative is old, and not factual. The bengals have been OVER the cap 3 out of the last 4 years, including your 2021 and 2022 seasons.

2021 - 182.5M cap, bengals had 191m in cap allocations (rollover?)9th most in nfl, 3.8m in cap space.
2022 - 208m cap, bengals had 210m in cap allocations (rollover?), 11th in nfl. Under 2m in cap space.
2023 - 224m cap, bengals had 215m in cap allocations, 29th in NFL. 10.5m in cap space.
2024 - 255m cap, bengals at 259m in cap allocations, 3rd in NFL. 6.5m in cap space.

(12-12-2024, 11:27 PM)TheFan Wrote: The money is already in the defense and they suck. Along with almost all of our top draft picks from the last 4 years. 

The Bengals are top 5 in most expensive defense in the NFL in 2024. Cut Hubbard, Pratt, Rankins, Stone, Bell. Lots of money freed up with pretty much no loss. 

The Bengals were in the top 5 for money paid to the defense in 2021, 2022, 2023, and 2024.

Right, you get it and I’ve said it before. This team pays big on the defense side of the ball. They pay above average contracts to average to below average players. It’s better to just pay your studs and use Lower level guys instead of average. The difference between Sam Hubbard and Myles Murphy is like 8m in money, but in football production, it might be a wash. Better spent in getting as many difference makers as you can, and fill out the rest with cheaper players, where the production is not far off.

(12-12-2024, 11:37 AM)Whatever Wrote: Chase is a need.  Tee is a want.

Ultimately, though, if Joe was going to exert influence to get Tee paid, why didn't it happen this year?  Or last year?

I'm sure Joe wants to keep Tee, but this is also probably a case of, "if you're letting Tee go, you'd better..."

Id rather use that cap hit for two or three very solid FA signings and look to draft on a tallish WR that can make some plays
Tee has not been too available that couple yrs so you risk paying a guy that may play 75% of season or less? 

The good news for Joe and Chase if they want to keep Tee Higgins in Cincy is with the private equity they can put their money where their mouth is....

(12-13-2024, 12:25 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: This narrative is old, and not factual.  The bengals have been OVER the cap 3 out of the last 4 years, including your 2021 and 2022 seasons.  

2021 - 182.5M cap, bengals had 191m in cap allocations (rollover?)9th most in nfl, 3.8m in cap space.
2022 - 208m cap, bengals had 210m in cap allocations (rollover?), 11th in nfl.  Under 2m in cap space.
2023 - 224m cap, bengals had 215m in cap allocations, 29th in NFL. 10.5m in cap space.
2024 - 255m cap, bengals at 259m in cap allocations, 3rd in NFL.  6.5m in cap space.

So let me get this straight they went over the cap but have cap space because of rollover from previous years of not going over the cap?

(12-13-2024, 12:46 PM)PCB Bengal Fan Wrote: So let me get this straight they went over the cap but have cap space because of rollover from previous years of not going over the cap?

Correct.

In the NFL, cap rollover is the practice of carrying over unused salary cap space from one season to the next:
How it works
Teams can roll over up to 100% of their remaining cap space to the next season. To do so, they must notify the NFL by 4 PM EDT the day after the regular season ends.
Benefits
Cap rollover allows teams to save money for future needs, such as signing new players or re-signing existing ones.
Limitations
Teams must still spend at least 89% of their cap over a four-year period. They can't keep increasing their cap indefinitely.
Penalties
Violating the salary cap can result in fines, contract cancellation, and loss of draft picks.