(12-30-2024, 02:31 PM)3wt Wrote: I think that the moves Tee has made and the priorities he has articulated might make it doable, despite the legitimate barriers of putting so much money on three contracts.

Certainly a long shot, but might be doable.   One of the keys will be the Bengals matching his concessions with theirs.   It's a different team with him on the field.

I also think the Bengals need to look at Philadelphia's operating model.  They seem to have found a way to transition from one playoff roster to a new one without financially imploding.   Requires planning and thinking out of the box, and putting more resources into your scouting team.

We have been blessed with a dynamic core.   They need to earn their keep by not letting historical failures to repeat themselves.

Hope you're listening Elizabeth!

The Burrow window is deceptively small

Great post 3wt. I know I have went back and forth with my own opinion on keeping Tee or not, but everything you say here is true. He 
adds another dimension to our Offense when he is on the field, Burrow wants him back, Tee switched to Ja'Marr's agent etc.

(12-30-2024, 04:40 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 5 seasons?

Brandon LaFell the very next year had 862 yards as our #2 WR (35th most among WRs)


He didn't repeat it in 2017, but in 2018 Tyler Boyd broke out big. Our #1s health just started failing (which is not the same conversation we're having, if Chase goes down for a year and Tee is shoved into the #1 role, we still had a legitimate #1 and #2 on our roster, injuries just happened).


He had >700 yards for us on a playoff team in 2011, he was 39th among all WRs in receiving yards that year. I consider that a breakout and a quality year for a #2 WR. Even more so considering we weren't throwing the ball nearly 40 times a game like we are now.

AJ missed 6 games that season though. LaFell actually finished with the most targets on the team to get those yards.

Idk, personally I wouldn’t consider guys like LaFell or Simpson particularly good WR2’s.

(12-30-2024, 02:31 PM)3wt Wrote: I think that the moves Tee has made and the priorities he has articulated might make it doable, despite the legitimate barriers of putting so much money on three contracts.

Certainly a long shot, but might be doable.   One of the keys will be the Bengals matching his concessions with theirs.   It's a different team with him on the field.

I also think the Bengals need to look at Philadelphia's operating model.  They seem to have found a way to transition from one playoff roster to a new one without financially imploding.   Requires planning and thinking out of the box, and putting more resources into your scouting team.

We have been blessed with a dynamic core.   They need to earn their keep by not letting historical failures to repeat themselves.

Hope you're listening Elizabeth!

The Burrow window is deceptively small

One of the keys to making everything happen as we would like for it to happen is that Tee's market value appears to have declined a bit over the past two seasons with all of the injuries and missed production. We as fans understand the value he adds to the offense when he's available, perhaps now he will see the value in agreeing to a deal that allows both he and Chase to be signed to new deals? They still need to figure out how to fill those gaping holes on defense, and last time I checked, good defenders aren't getting any cheaper either..

(12-30-2024, 04:59 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: AJ missed 6 games that season though. LaFell actually finished with the most targets on the team to get those yards.

Idk, personally I wouldn’t consider guys like LaFell or Simpson particularly good WR2’s.

And Boyd filled in as the #2 when AJ got hurt, he had over 600 yards as the #3 that had to step up for some games.

I think you don't consider those solid WR2 seasons because you/we have been spoiled. We're 16 games in for almost all teams so it's a good time to compare now to times pre-17 games.

The #2 WRs on winning AFC teams in 2024
Bills: Keon Coleman, 525 yards
Ravens: Rashon Bateman, 680 yards
Chiefs: DeAndre Hopkins, 437 yards
Chargers: Josh Palmer, 584 yards
Broncos: Marvin Mims, 452 yards
Steelers: Calvin Austin III, 548 yards
Texans: Tank Dell, 667 yards

Just proving my point that for all of the many MANY faults of the Bengals FO, we have been very good at getting WRs. Guy does better than every #2 WR on a winning AFC team and the first instinct is "sure, but he's not THAT good of a #2" (really just meaning he's not a 900-1000 yard WR and probably a bad team's #1).

(12-30-2024, 05:16 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: And Boyd filled in as the #2 when AJ got hurt, he had over 600 yards as the #3 that had to step up for some games.

I think you don't consider those solid WR2 seasons because you/we have been spoiled. We're 16 games in for almost all teams so it's a good time to compare now to times pre-17 games.

The #2 WRs on winning AFC teams in 2024
Bills: Keon Coleman, 525 yards
Ravens: Rashon Bateman, 680 yards
Chiefs: DeAndre Hopkins, 437 yards
Chargers: Josh Palmer, 584 yards
Broncos: Marvin Mims, 452 yards
Steelers: Calvin Austin III, 548 yards
Texans: Tank Dell, 667 yards

Just proving my point that for all of the many MANY faults of the Bengals FO, we have been very good at getting WRs. Guy does better than every #2 WR on a winning AFC team and the first instinct is "sure, but he's not THAT good of a #2" (really just meaning he's not a 900-1000 yard WR and probably a bad team's #1).

Most of those teams actually have a balanced offense though. We’re never getting that under Zac Taylor. Having at least 2 very good WR’s is imperative as long as he’s here and calling the plays.

(12-30-2024, 05:24 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Most of those teams actually have a balanced offense though. We’re never getting that under Zac Taylor. Having at least 2 very good WR’s is imperative as long as he’s here and calling the plays.

So true. I wish we had a more balanced Offense, but with Zac and Joe we all know we need to throw...

(12-30-2024, 05:24 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Most of those teams actually have a balanced offense though. We’re never getting that under Zac Taylor. Having at least 2 very good WR’s is imperative as long as he’s here and calling the plays.

Yep. We're 2nd in the league in passing attempts per game.

In general, most of the playoff teams have lower pass attempts per game. But, there are some outliers, like the Chiefs pass a lot.

2024 NFL Attempts / Game Leaders & Stats - Team Passing Stats | FOX Sports

(12-30-2024, 11:43 AM)ERIC1 Wrote: This will be  my last post regarding this discussion ...I have tried to be very polite  but to suggest the team use more than one third of its payroll  on three players is just downright silly

Dude you responded to my post not the other way around.

Gtfoh with this 'im do polite' bullshit.

(12-30-2024, 05:40 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep. We're 2nd in the league in passing attempts per game.

In general, most of the playoff teams have lower pass attempts per game. But, there are some outliers, like the Chiefs pass a lot.

2024 NFL Attempts / Game Leaders & Stats - Team Passing Stats | FOX Sports

When your 4th in points allowed, of course u will be throwing alot especially with top tier QB. I take signing a top tier DE or LB over Higgins all day.

(12-31-2024, 01:14 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: When your 4th in points allowed, of course u will be throwing alot especially with top tier QB. I take signing a top tier DE or LB over Higgins all day.

So it's one or the other? Can't have both?

What top tier LB or DE that's a free agent will you sign?

Just like people always say to sign a top Tackle. Those guys are rarely free agents.

(12-31-2024, 01:25 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So it's one or the other? Can't have both?

What top tier LB or DE that's a free agent will you sign?

Just like people always say to sign a top Tackle. Those guys are rarely free agents.

This is the part that many people don’t comprehend. Tee Higgins is almost universally thought of as the premier (#1 overall) FA this offseason.

The best DE is Khalil Mack. 33 years old, 6 sacks in 2024
Others, Hassan Reddick (30), Josh sweat…

DT Milton Williams is the best interior option.

There is opportunity with CB and OL, but it shouldn’t be at the expense of retaining your third or 4th best player when the replacement player isn’t likely to be of similar impact.

The chiefs made a choice to get rid of Hill because they legitimately had equally impactful guys at other positions (TE, DT). They have struggled mightily to replace him. I know.. they are still winning.

If/when the bengals have 4 hall of fame players on their team, it will be tough to figure out… but that isn’t the case right now.

(12-31-2024, 01:14 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: When your 4th in points allowed, of course u will be throwing alot especially with top tier QB. I take signing a top tier DE or LB over Higgins all day.

As someone else mentioned, who are you signing in 2025 that has the impact tee Higgins does? Without Higgins, this team isn’t competing for anything week 18. Not even close. Do you think if we swapped Khalil Mack instead of Higgins we are better or worse?

Tee Higgins is arguably our 3rd best draft pick since 2011 (zeitler/Bates
/mixon could have an argument here). It didn’t work out letting Zeitler or Bates leave. We might not have had the playoff runs we did without Mixon.

Good teams don’t let their best players leave, period. The bengals messed up with Bates and zeitler and still have not adequately replaced either… who are still better (Looking at Zeitler) than what the bengals have.

(12-30-2024, 05:16 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: And Boyd filled in as the #2 when AJ got hurt, he had over 600 yards as the #3 that had to step up for some games.

I think you don't consider those solid WR2 seasons because you/we have been spoiled. We're 16 games in for almost all teams so it's a good time to compare now to times pre-17 games.

The #2 WRs on winning AFC teams in 2024
Bills: Keon Coleman, 525 yards
Ravens: Rashon Bateman, 680 yards
Chiefs: DeAndre Hopkins, 437 yards
Chargers: Josh Palmer, 584 yards
Broncos: Marvin Mims, 452 yards
Steelers: Calvin Austin III, 548 yards
Texans: Tank Dell, 667 yards

Just proving my point that for all of the many MANY faults of the Bengals FO, we have been very good at getting WRs. Guy does better than every #2 WR on a winning AFC team and the first instinct is "sure, but he's not THAT good of a #2" (really just meaning he's not a 900-1000 yard WR and probably a bad team's #1).

This is silly. Those teams have impact players at other positions, the bengals don’t. The FA crop isn’t great this offseason, so until the bengals draft and develop some impact players, you don’t let your best players leave. LT, LG and S had/have been issues for years after we had above average players at those positions.

For a team that isn’t great at scouting, let’s let one of the few difference makers leave. It would be letting 2/4 drafted players in over a decade leave. Not good.

(12-30-2024, 10:37 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: This would be the first time burrow has missed the playoffs when finishing the season.   So the “once again” part isn’t entirely true.  

The bengals are 7-4 this year when the 3 play together.  They are 1-4 in the games Tee hasn’t played. Tee gives us our best chance to win, as currently constructed.  Letting him go next year will undoubtedly make the offense worse, and I don’t believe it will make our defense decidedly better.

It is true because when you put all the money into just the passing game (on only 3 players) it is paramount that they all 3 play to give the team a chance. Their bad track record of not doing so has to factor into the equation. They all 3 have injury history of missing games. 

Plus one of the reasons to do this is so that the Bengals are constructed differently and can feature a good defense or OL with the extra $30 million they don't give Tee. Then use the draft pick received in trade to target his replacement.

Especially if you're pointing out they the Bengals are 1-4 without all three playing meaning they're only winning at a 20% clip when just 1 sits. 

This is putting all ones eggs in one basket and is fools gold. Burrow and Chase are good enough to make most #2 WR be adequate or very good. Heck Burrow gets an average TE paid yearly only to watch them fall off a cliff without him. Trust me Burrow is the key piece, not Tee and Joe needs to be better protected for when he goes down so does the Bengals chances at anything.  

But once again if Burrow and Chase take significant cuts in pay then it will work. If not and wanting to pay all 3 what they've earned, then it's just crazy talk imho. They've all 3 earned a kings ransom and should be compensated. 

(12-31-2024, 08:58 AM)Go Cards Wrote: It is true because when you put all the money into just the passing game (on only 3 players) it is paramount that they all 3 play to give the team a chance. Their bad track record of not doing so has to factor into the equation. They all 3 have injury history of missing games. 

Plus one of the reasons to do this is so that the Bengals are constructed differently and can feature a good defense or OL with the extra $30 million they don't give Tee. Then use the draft pick received in trade to target his replacement.

Especially if you're pointing out they the Bengals are 1-4 without all three playing meaning they're only winning at a 20% clip when just 1 sits. 

This is putting all ones eggs in one basket and is fools gold. Burrow and Chase are good enough to make most #2 WR be adequate or very good. Heck Burrow gets an average TE paid yearly only to watch them fall off a cliff without him. Trust me Burrow is the key piece, not Tee and Joe needs to be better protected for when he goes down so does the Bengals chances at anything.  

But once again if Burrow and Chase take significant cuts in pay then it will work. If not and wanting to pay all 3 what they've earned, then it's just crazy talk imho. They've all 3 earned a kings ransom and should be compensated. 

No one has said who they would target in free agency, they just say “get this guy.” How did Rankins work out? Alex Cappa, Trent brown, OBJ? As far as draft picks go.. Tee is our 3rd best player drafted in over a decade.

I get the concept of what you are saying, but the reality is that you if you let tee walk (top 3-4 player on the team), you will likely just be replacing with a middle of the road somewhere else.

(12-31-2024, 09:29 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: No one has said who they would target in free agency, they just say “get this guy.”  How did Rankins work out?  Alex Cappa, Trent brown, OBJ?  As far as draft picks go.. Tee is our 3rd best player drafted in over a decade.

I get the concept of what you are saying, but the reality is that you if you let tee walk (top 3-4 player on the team), you will likely just be replacing with a middle of the road somewhere else.

there is "no concept" to what he saying..you don't pay three players over 100 million on a team that has so many holes to fill..and if the Bengals front office does not get its act in order specific to the draft and free agency...we will be right back in the same place next year

(12-31-2024, 10:47 AM)ERIC1 Wrote: there is "no concept" to what he saying..you don't pay three players over 100 million on a team that has so many holes to fill..and if the Bengals front office does not get its act in order specific to the draft and free agency...we will be right back in the same place next year

You can if structured right. You can if it’s your best 3 players.

Average Annual Salary (2024), this is not exhaustive:
Jared Goff - $53m
St Brown - $30m
Sewell - $28m

Hurts $51m
Brown $32m
Smith $25m

Jordan Love $55m
Rashawn Gary $24m
Kenny Clark $21m

If you don’t pay Higgins, who else are you going to pay? Enlighten me, since I am so dumb.

You pay your best players, regardless of position. When you draft well and have to start making tough decisions, let’s talk.

(12-31-2024, 02:13 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: This is the part that many people don’t comprehend.  Tee Higgins is almost universally thought of as the premier (#1 overall) FA this offseason.  

The best DE is Khalil Mack. 33 years old, 6 sacks in 2024
Others, Hassan Reddick (30), Josh sweat…

DT Milton Williams is the best interior option.

There is opportunity with CB and OL, but it shouldn’t be at the expense of retaining your third or 4th best player when the replacement player isn’t likely to be of similar impact.  

The chiefs made a choice to get rid of Hill because they legitimately had equally impactful guys at other positions (TE, DT).  They have struggled mightily to replace him.  I know.. they are still winning.  

If/when the bengals have 4 hall of fame players on their team, it will be tough to figure out… but that isn’t the case right now.

thanks for your survey..but tee Higgins is not universally regarded as a # 1 receiver..plus he has health issues

(12-31-2024, 11:03 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: You can if structured right.  You can if it’s your best 3 players.

Average Annual Salary (2024), this is not exhaustive:
Jared Goff - $53m
St Brown - $30m
Sewell - $28m

Hurts $51m
Brown $32m
Smith $25m

Jordan Love $55m
Rashawn Gary $24m
Kenny Clark $21m

If you don’t pay Higgins, who else are you going to pay?  Enlighten me, since I am so dumb.  

You pay your best players, regardless of position.  When you draft well and have to start making tough decisions, let’s talk.

1) nobody called you dumb  2)  Chase and Burrow are not going to take a pay cut or reduce their salaries for Higgins 3) restructuring may save some immediate cap space immediately but bite us in the butt in the long run 3) the teams you use as an example have done a really good job drafting and implementing a plan..sadly we have not..we have too many holes to fill and a limited amount of cash 4) if tee Higgins is back with the Bengals next year and the Bengals have not addressed shortcomings in scouting and player development this off-season..we will not improve dramatically..5) personally ..I like Higgins  ..good guy..can make artistic catches occasionally..but also is injury prone and there many times jhe does not seem to have his head in the game and drops easy catches.  I have enjoyed this discussion about tee Higgins..but him coming back..or not coming back is the very least of all the problems our team has

(12-31-2024, 02:27 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: This is silly.  Those teams have impact players at other positions, the bengals don’t.  The FA crop isn’t great this offseason, so until the bengals draft and develop some impact players, you don’t let your best players leave.  LT, LG and S had/have been issues for years after we had above average players at those positions.

For a team that isn’t great at scouting, let’s let one of the few difference makers leave.  It would be letting 2/4 drafted players in over a decade leave.  Not good.

the discussing about retaining tee Higgins is silly..and if tee Higgins was a jerk like some other players. in the league.you all would be saying let him leave, he cant stay healthy ..there are times when his head is not in the game 
 and he drops easy passes and we have too many other needs on this club