Tee vs a NEW D

[PCB Bengal Fan]

(12-29-2024, 11:04 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: And? They whiffed on Ross too and then Boyd stepped up. Simpson was a wiff but then we signed TO. Then Simpson finally broke out, and after he left Marvin Jones stepped up. Etc. We have only been without a legit #2 WR for ~3 years in the last two decades and never two years consecutively.

The idea that they'll be looking for a #2 WR for "a long time" if Tee leaves is silly and not based in actual reality. I'll shit talk the Bengals FO all day with you if you want to talk about one of the many many things they're actually bad at.

When did Simpson break out? The flip? Come on Man!

[SunsetBengal]

(12-29-2024, 05:33 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Is he saying there's a chance?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/tee-higgins-contract-situation-with-bengals-just-got-more-interesting/ar-AA1wEHJl?ocid=msedgntp&pc=ASTS&cvid=3b23f30a32f741d78363c92347415942&ei=33

"Tee Higgins told me last week being paid as a WR1 is not necessarily his no. 1 motivator. Said, “I’m playing with if not the best, one of the best, QBs. I’m playing with if not the best, one of the best, WRs. That opens up things for me.” And: “In this offense, everyone has a chance to be spotlighted.” He now shares an agent with Ja’Marr Chase and Chase told us Higgins is “the most unselfish person.” Maybe it’s not impossible…"

Man, I really want to believe that there is a financial path that allows for keeping Tee Higgins in the offense and provides for shoring up some of those gaping holes on defense.

[ERIC1]

(12-30-2024, 12:00 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: What is downright silly is the bengals lack of restructures.  Equally as silly is your opinion on this.  

2025 cap commitments (as of now)
Chiefs are an example of having 1/3 tied up into 3 players:
Mahomes $66m
Chris jones $36m
Japan Taylor or Thuney (Taylor may get cut) - $27m


On the flip side is the eagles, who have a $96m cap hit for Jalen hurts in 2029 and a $50m+ cap hit for AJ Brown in 2030.

When it comes to average annual value, the eagles are at $51m for hurts, $32 for brown and $25 for smith.  The biggest difference in eagles v bengals is their ability to draft well on the defensive side of the ball and the way they structure contracts.  The bill will ultimately come due, just like for the saints, post drew brees.

To answer your last post, teams can thrive by tying up 1/3 of their cap into 3 players. Teams do this better with creative restructures (maybe burrow does this?).  Teams do best when they supplement with good drafting.

I would like to think the bengals can find a middle ground where they can do some creative stuff while not royally hosing themselves in 3-5 years.

do you even understand how restructuring contracts work..it may provide an immediately relief to CAP space but it will come back to bite you in the butt. This team has need s on the interior offensive line..interior defensive line..defensive backfield..linebacker..etc...This team cannot thrive devoting one third of the CAP to three players..And frankly..as much as I like tee..he cant stay healthy..You keep mentioning other teams that do well and then you admit it is because of good drafting..well we have not drafted good..we may not even have a winning record this year and to pretend we are like the chiefs , Eagles etc is a fools paradise. Tee will be tagged and traded, we will get some significant draft picks and will find some receivers that can take the heat off Chase..Bank on it

[ERIC1]

(12-30-2024, 12:08 PM)Synric Wrote: Eagles seem to be doing fine paying Jalen Hurts, AJ Brown, and Davonta Smith... not to mention Lane Johnson, Jordan Mailata, Landon Dickerson, and of course Saquan Barkley. 

[color=var(--m3c11)]the Philadelphia Eagles scouting department typically consists of a relatively large team, including a Director of Player Personnel, multiple area scouts for different regions, assistant directors for college and pro scouting, and other personnel dedicated to player evaluation, with the exact size varying depending on the team's needs, but generally numbering in the double digits across different scouting roles. .....the eagles had a plan in place 3-4 years along with a new coach and its paying benefits...should the Bengals get smart this off-season hire more scouts etc..better evaluate players..have a better team..maybe in 3-4 years they could find a way to keep Higgins...But we are a million miles away from that..we have needs on the offensive and defensive line, defensive backfield, linebackers etc..at this point in time you cant blow one third of your salary cap on 3 players..as far as receivers go to take the heat off Chase..I think Yoshi has good potential..we have gesecki..and again..I bet every contributor on this Bengals jungle noise board can identify 15-20 receivers in the draft that would transition well..If the Bengals  powers that be, scouts, coaches cant do this..oh well

[/color]

[Bengalbug]

(12-30-2024, 01:02 PM)ERIC1 Wrote: [color=var(--m3c11)]the Philadelphia Eagles scouting department typically consists of a relatively large team, including a Director of Player Personnel, multiple area scouts for different regions, assistant directors for college and pro scouting, and other personnel dedicated to player evaluation, with the exact size varying depending on the team's needs, but generally numbering in the double digits across different scouting roles. .....the eagles had a plan in place 3-4 years along with a new coach and its paying benefits...should the Bengals get smart this off-season hire more scouts etc..better evaluate players..have a better team..maybe in 3-4 years they could find a way to keep Higgins...But we are a million miles away from that..we have needs on the offensive and defensive line, defensive backfield, linebackers etc..at this point in time you cant blow one third of your salary cap on 3 players..as far as receivers go to take the heat off Chase..I think Yoshi has good potential..we have gesecki..and again..I bet every contributor on this Bengals jungle noise board can identify 15-20 receivers in the draft that would transition well..If the Bengals  powers that be, scouts, coaches cant do this..oh well

[/color]

15-20? So half or more WR drafted will transition “well”? What does that even mean? It’s statistically the lowest hit rate in NFL drafts.

4 rookies have more yards this year, one of which is a Tight end. So 3/35 drafted wide receivers. All have played 3, or more, games than tee Higgins.

1 rookie has as many touchdowns (1/35 drafted).

Only 7 out of 35 WR have 500 or more yards.

Troy Franklin is the 15th rookie in receiving yards, 251.

Not saying that more guys won’t continue to get better, but expecting immediate production out of rookie WRs, especially those drafted later, is fools gold. Obviously exceptions exist (Puka), but more flame out than end up being solid contributors.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-30-2024, 01:49 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: 15-20?  So half or more WR drafted will transition “well”?  What does that even mean?  It’s statistically the lowest hit rate in NFL drafts.  

4 rookies have more yards this year, one of which is a Tight end.  So 3/35 drafted wide receivers.  All have played 3, or more, games than tee Higgins.

1 rookie has as many touchdowns (1/35 drafted).

Only 7 out of 35 WR have 500 or more yards.

Troy Franklin is the 15th rookie in receiving yards, 251.  

Not saying that more guys won’t continue to get better, but expecting immediate production out of rookie WRs, especially those drafted later, is fools gold.  Obviously exceptions exist (Puka), but more flame out than end up being solid contributors.

In general, relying on any rookie to be a quality starter Year 1 doesn't work, but WR is tough.

Of course, we have Burrow and Chase too.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-30-2024, 12:16 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Oh weird, I didn't know Whitworth, Bates, or Reader played WR which is the only position I was talking about in the posts you replied to.

Because as I said, I will happily shit talk the Bengals FO about all the things they're bad at and drafting OL, DBs, and DL are absolutely on that list of things they're bad at. My only point, the ONLY point I am making is that WRs aren't one of them. We have always been able to find and put together pretty good WR groups. 

Hell, it's not even like we're starting from scratch. We have a top-3 (and currently not 2nd or 3rd) WR. Hard part is already done, which makes even less sense to bring up Whit, Bates, or Reader. We didn't have a top-3 OT, S, or DT that they were the #2 to.

I do agree that they've found good WR's in Scott/Pickens, TJ/Ochocinco, Chase/Higgins. They've had their misses too.

And Chase is unsigned because they couldn't agree on the structure of the contract. That seems like a bigger issue than the board in general thinks it is.

[Bengalbug]

(12-30-2024, 01:55 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: In general, relying on any rookie to be a quality starter Year 1 doesn't work, but WR is tough.

Of course, we have Burrow and Chase too.

If you go back the last 10 years:

Mario Alford
Tyler Boyd
Cody core
John Ross
Josh Malone
Auden Tate
Tee Higgins
J Chase
Charlie jones
Andre iosivas
Jermaine Burton

It’s not great.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-30-2024, 12:12 AM)J24 Wrote: Can't believe you forgot about Zietler! You are losing your touch Negatron!

It's funny...I got called Negatron for complaining about the lack of scouts, Zac Taylor's hire, and the Bengals not having a GM.

Seems those things are all fairly accurate issues still...

Now, apparently thinking they can keep Tee and fix the defense is controversial. 

[THE PISTONS]

(12-30-2024, 01:58 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: If you go back the last 10 years:

Mario Alford
Tyler Boyd
Cody core
John Ross
Josh Malone
Auden Tate
Tee Higgins
J Chase
Charlie jones
Andre iosivas
Jermaine Burton

It’s not great.

Yes. Thanks for looking that up.

So while the Bengals generally have a quality #1 and 2 WR, they've had a lot of misses to get to that.

[3wt]

(12-30-2024, 12:28 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Man, I really want to believe that there is a financial path that allows for keeping Tee Higgins in the offense and provides for shoring up some of those gaping holes on defense.

I think that the moves Tee has made and the priorities he has articulated might make it doable, despite the legitimate barriers of putting so much money on three contracts.

Certainly a long shot, but might be doable.   One of the keys will be the Bengals matching his concessions with theirs.   It's a different team with him on the field.

I also think the Bengals need to look at Philadelphia's operating model.  They seem to have found a way to transition from one playoff roster to a new one without financially imploding.   Requires planning and thinking out of the box, and putting more resources into your scouting team.

We have been blessed with a dynamic core.   They need to earn their keep by not letting historical failures to repeat themselves.

Hope you're listening Elizabeth!

The Burrow window is deceptively small

[ERIC1]

(12-30-2024, 02:31 PM)3wt Wrote: I think that the moves Tee has made and the priorities he has articulated might make it doable, despite the legitimate barriers of putting so much money on three contracts.

Certainly a long shot, but might be doable.   One of the keys will be the Bengals matching his concessions with theirs.   It's a different team with him on the field.

I also think the Bengals need to look at Philadelphia's operating model.  They seem to have found a way to transition from one playoff roster to a new one without financially imploding.   Requires planning and thinking out of the box, and putting more resources into your scouting team.

We have been blessed with a dynamic core.   They need to earn their keep by not letting historical failures to repeat themselves.

Hope you're listening Elizabeth!

The Burrow window is deceptively small

[ERIC1]

good post but tee Higgins is not going to accept 5-7 million less for a number2 receiver salary..nor should he..You hit the nail on the head..and whether it be Philadelphia , or Kansas City..they have a plan.. robust scouting departments etc..we are not there..we have to get there..Burrow Higgins Chase is not going to carry this team and when you consider our needs at this time interior offensive line, interior defensive line, defensive backfield,,linebacker etc..its crazy to pay 3 players over 100 million bucks..especially one that gets hurt quite frequently..so we will see..the best off season news for me would have nothing to do with Higgins but I would jump for joy ...and feel confident about the future if they added scouts ..maybe even a real GM..and that deficiency is the root cause for all the teams problems..but we ended the season on a high note, the Bengals are respected,Burrow is having an MVP year and I am ok with that..ELIZABETH ELIZABETH ELIZABETH...time for gramps to retire..hire a GM and enlarge the scouting deartment

[ERIC1]

(12-30-2024, 01:59 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's funny...I got called Negatron for complaining about the lack of scouts, Zac Taylor's hire, and the Bengals not having a GM.

Seems those things are all fairly accurate issues still...

Now, apparently thinking they can keep Tee and fix the defense is controversial. 

they potentially can keep Tee..do some restructuring now and maybe fix the defense somewhat..But it will come back to bite us in the butt three years from now

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-30-2024, 02:42 PM)ERIC1 Wrote: good post but tee Higgins is not going to accept 5-7 million less for a number2 receiver salary..nor should he..You hit the nail on the head..and whether it be Philadelphia , or Kansas City..they have a plan.. robust scouting departments etc..we are not there..we have to get there..Burrow Higgins Chase is not going to carry this team and when you consider our needs at this time interior offensive line, interior defensive line, defensive backfield,,linebacker etc..its crazy to pay 3 players over 100 million bucks..especially one that gets hurt quite frequently..so we will see..the best off season news for me would have nothing to do with Higgins but I would jump for joy ...and feel confident about the future if they added scouts ..maybe even a real GM..and that deficiency is the root cause for all the teams problems..but we ended the season on a high note, the Bengals are respected,Burrow is having an MVP year and I am ok with that..ELIZABETH ELIZABETH ELIZABETH...time for gramps to retire..hire a GM and enlarge the scouting deartment

[ERIC1]

(12-30-2024, 02:45 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

Thanks nicom.. but I am relatively new here.l enjoythe debates with great fans..but unlike yourself I am not here to compete for relevance..

[George Cantstandya]

(12-30-2024, 02:31 PM)3wt Wrote: Hope you're listening Elizabeth!

The Burrow window is deceptively small

(12-30-2024, 02:42 PM)ERIC1 Wrote: ELIZABETH ELIZABETH ELIZABETH...time for gramps to retire..hire a GM and enlarge the scouting deartment

If you all are referring to Elizabeth Blackburn she is the Director of Strategy & Engagement.  So I don't think she has a lot of say in such things at this time but I could be wrong.  Perhaps you are thinking of Katie Blackburn the Executive Vice President?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-30-2024, 03:14 PM)ERIC1 Wrote: Thanks nicom.. but I am relatively new here.l enjoythe debates with great fans..but unlike yourself I am not here to compete for relevance..

It’s just nice to be able to read a post without straining your eyes. Try some paragraphs.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-30-2024, 11:20 AM)jason Wrote: We've had a lot of good WRs over the decades, but it took them 5 seasons to recover from Marvin Jones walking. I do realize injury played a role in AJ Green and Tyler Boyd not really being ba thing, but still.

5 seasons?

Brandon LaFell the very next year had 862 yards as our #2 WR (35th most among WRs)


He didn't repeat it in 2017, but in 2018 Tyler Boyd broke out big. Our #1s health just started failing (which is not the same conversation we're having, if Chase goes down for a year and Tee is shoved into the #1 role, we still had a legitimate #1 and #2 on our roster, injuries just happened).

(12-30-2024, 12:15 PM)PCB Bengal Fan Wrote: When did Simpson break out? The flip? Come on Man!

He had >700 yards for us on a playoff team in 2011, he was 39th among all WRs in receiving yards that year. I consider that a breakout and a quality year for a #2 WR. Even more so considering we weren't throwing the ball nearly 40 times a game like we are now.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-30-2024, 12:28 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Man, I really want to believe that there is a financial path that allows for keeping Tee Higgins in the offense and provides for shoring up some of those gaping holes on defense.

Same here Sunset. That would be ideal honestly, as long as we can shore up the gaping holes and keep Tee I am more than happy.

I like what I heard there from Tee taking into account his situation.