I think most will be disappointed if we cut three players to get to $84 mil in cap space, lose Tee, and basically load up on B and C tier FA's. Cutting Stone and then waiting to replace him in the draft is also kind of putting the cart before the horse.

I can get behind Starks as a BPA pick in the first, but Ratledge is currently the #93 prospect on the Consensus Big Board. The decision to double dip on OL with 2 of the first 4 picks in a bad OL class is kind of a head scratcher, especially with a big reach in the 2nd.

Overall, massively downgrading at WR2 and bringing in a journeyman G in FA, drafting another G and hoping he can play at journeyman level, and never seriously addressing RB2 puts us in a "pray neither of the Chase's get hurt" situation on offense. On defense, our biggest weakness is pass rush, and you bring in a couple of rotation level DL in FA and draft tweener DT who's more of a run stuffer in the 3rd.

(01-02-2025, 12:07 PM)Whatever Wrote: I think most will be disappointed if we cut three players to get to $84 mil in cap space, lose Tee, and basically load up on B and C tier FA's.  Cutting Stone and then waiting to replace him in the draft is also kind of putting the cart before the horse.  

I can get behind Starks as a BPA pick in the first, but Ratledge is currently the #93 prospect on the Consensus Big Board.  The decision to double dip on OL with 2 of the first 4 picks in a bad OL class is kind of a head scratcher, especially with a big reach in the 2nd.  

Overall, massively downgrading at WR2 and bringing in a journeyman G in FA, drafting another G and hoping he can play at journeyman level, and never seriously addressing RB2 puts us in a "pray neither of the Chase's get hurt" situation on offense.  On defense, our biggest weakness is pass rush, and you bring in a couple of rotation level DL in FA and draft tweener DT who's more of a run stuffer in the 3rd.

Where are you getting this "Consensus Big Board"?

When I look at NFL Draft Buzz, the collection of boards they scan has Ratledge listed as average overall big board rank of 57.4, which would be late 2nd.

I think maybe where you and I have ended up having some debates around some prospects recently has been around the rankings/big boards we have looked at, which seem to have prospects ranked differently.

EDIT - And from everything I have researched up on Ratledge, he does sound like a 2nd rounder to me, so I felt the selection was not a reach, personally.

(01-02-2025, 01:37 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Where are you getting this "Consensus Big Board"?

When I look at NFL Draft Buzz, the collection of boards they scan has Ratledge listed as average overall big board rank of 57.4, which would be late 2nd.

I think maybe where you and I have ended up having some debates around some prospects recently has been around the rankings/big boards we have looked at, which seem to have prospects ranked differently.

EDIT - And from everything I have researched up on Ratledge, he does sound like a 2nd rounder to me, so I felt the selection was not a reach, personally.

https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/big-boards/2025/consensus-big-board-2025?pos=IOL

They take into account a lot more sources than Draft buzz.  

Beyond that, Ratledge is a low ceiling gap/power G only.  That, by definition, isn't a guy anyone will be looking to draft in the 2nd due to scheme limitations.  

(01-02-2025, 11:21 AM)ochocincos Wrote: What's going to be the challenging thing for the Bengals is the number of players they have/should replace.
Even if they have ~$80 mill in cap by cutting some guys we want/expect them to cut, it may evaporate quickly if they have to sign 10+ veterans.
They're going to have the following people to potentially replace:
- Tee Higgins
- Mike Gesicki
- BJ Hill
- Mike Hilton
- Trent Brown
- Joseph Ossai
- Cam Sample
- Jay Tufele
- Vonn Bell
- Khalil Herbert
- Trayveon Williams
- Tanner Hudson (McLachlan may take his place)
- Cody Ford
- ADG
- Joe Bachie


And then guys we (some at least) want to see cut to free up cap:
- Alex Cappa
- Geno Stone
- Sheldon Rankins
- Sam Hubbard
- Zack Moss

That's 20+ people potentially, and the Bengals only have 6 draft picks.
That would be a lot of new FAs to bring in to replace or sign to new, likely (somewhat, at least) more expensive deals.

Be a lot of new faces or a lot of guys back on cheaper deals or a combo of both.....this is why I don't think we can give Tee all that money and still sign Chase and fill all of the holes......just not gonna happen.

(01-02-2025, 04:18 PM)Whatever Wrote: https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/big-boards/2025/consensus-big-board-2025?pos=IOL

They take into account a lot more sources than Draft buzz.  

Beyond that, Ratledge is a low ceiling gap/power G only.  That, by definition, isn't a guy anyone will be looking to draft in the 2nd due to scheme limitations.  

I guess I don't feel the same then.
He's a NFL-ready starting OG who can play both spots and I think could succeed with the Bengals.
He has the attitude that Pollack would love.
Feels like a pretty good fit that should yield immediate need.

And FWIW, I'm looking for high floor guys with this coaching staff.
I would rather high floor with maybe just mid ceiling over high ceiling, low floor guys who we need to depend on coaching to properly develop.
Bengals have not been good with guys that need a lot of development.

Thank you for the link to the nflmockdraftdatabase. I was not aware that was the "Concensus Big Board" that you have mentioned before.
Bookmarked and I'll check it out.
I don't think I have ever really gone to this site, at least not from what I can remember.

EDIT - Some other interesting things when comparing NFLDraftBuzz to the site you linked:
1) NFLDraftBuzz has Donovan Jackson, Jonah Savaiinaea, and Tyler Booker all listed as average overall rank of Top 40 picks. Bengals won't be picking 33-40 in the 2nd round. Right now, they're slotted 47th in Rd 2. Concensus Big Board also has all 3 of these guys in average rank before 45. Should we count on any of them being there when the Bengals pick?
2) NFLDraftBuzz has Donovan Jackson, Jonah Savaiinaea, and Armand Membou listed as OTs, not OGs, so I haven't looked into the last two because Bengals didn't need a starting OT. I knew Jackson used to play OG but he's starting LT at Ohio St now so I figured a team might jump to take him early if they think he can be OT in the NFL.

I may consider Membou instead of Ratledge as I look to get more info on him. From NFLDraftBuzz's scouting report, Membou has a high ceiling if coached right but a questionable floor. They also feel his best fit might be at RT in the NFL, not inside.

(01-02-2025, 07:58 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I guess I don't feel the same then.
He's a NFL-ready starting OG who can play both spots and I think could succeed with the Bengals.
He has the attitude that Pollack would love.
Feels like a pretty good fit that should yield immediate need.

And FWIW, I'm looking for high floor guys with this coaching staff.
I would rather high floor with maybe just mid ceiling over high ceiling, low floor guys who we need to depend on coaching to properly develop.
Bengals have not been good with guys that need a lot of development.

Thank you for the link to the nflmockdraftdatabase. I was not aware that was the "Concensus Big Board" that you have mentioned before.
Bookmarked and I'll check it out.
I don't think I have ever really gone to this site, at least not from what I can remember.

EDIT - Some other interesting things when comparing NFLDraftBuzz to the site you linked:
1) NFLDraftBuzz has Donovan Jackson, Jonah Savaiinaea, and Tyler Booker all listed as average overall rank of Top 40 picks. Bengals won't be picking 33-40 in the 2nd round. Right now, they're slotted 47th in Rd 2. Concensus Big Board also has all 3 of these guys in average rank before 45. Should we count on any of them being there when the Bengals pick?
2) NFLDraftBuzz has Donovan Jackson, Jonah Savaiinaea, and Armand Membou listed as OTs, not OGs, so I haven't looked into the last two because Bengals didn't need a starting OT. I knew Jackson used to play OG but he's starting LT at Ohio St now so I figured a team might jump to take him early if they think he can be OT in the NFL.

I may consider Membou instead of Ratledge as I look to get more info on him. From NFLDraftBuzz's scouting report, Membou has a high ceiling if coached right but a questionable floor. They also feel his best fit might be at RT in the NFL, not inside.

Booker will likely slide because he's gap-power only and lack of scheme versatility will hurt his draft stock.  I just don't think he's a scheme fit.

Jackson is a G who had to slide to T late in the year because of injuries.  He'd be my #1 G choice.

Saiivanaea is a LT that being projected by many as a G, but in a weak T class, some may reach for him as a T.  Same with Membou, though there is big upside there.

I just don't like going in trying to key on getting a starting G on Day 2, especially in this class, and with FA being so strong for G's. 

(01-03-2025, 11:12 AM)Whatever Wrote: Booker will likely slide because he's gap-power only and lack of scheme versatility will hurt his draft stock.  I just don't think he's a scheme fit.

Jackson is a G who had to slide to T late in the year because of injuries.  He'd be my #1 G choice.

Saiivanaea is a LT that being projected by many as a G, but in a weak T class, some may reach for him as a T.  Same with Membou, though there is big upside there.

I just don't like going in trying to key on getting a starting G on Day 2, especially in this class, and with FA being so strong for G's. 

I get it, but I don't think it's hard to find at least a solid starting OG on Day 2, personally.
Bengals don't try to run such heavy wide zone that Ratledge or Booker would be a huge liability, at least not a drop off compared to the guys they currently have who aren't uber-mobile (Cappa, Volson) lol.
Ratledge has enough lateral agility and mobility to succeed in the Bengals' scheme, IMO, even if not elite at it.

With that said, the FA IOL I would love to have depending on how his physical will show would be James Daniels.
He and Risner are my dream IOL for this team.
Some may crap on Risner because they've seen him jump teams but he's performed well everywhere he's gone. He's been a great budget signing in his career.

I think in a perfect world, if Bengals could find a way to head into the draft with Daniels and Higgins both signed (might need some crafty cap structuring to pull off), I'd love to pull the trigger on a TE and safety/DL in first two rounds who can contribute heavy snaps as rookies.

(12-31-2024, 05:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Cut:
- Sheldon Rankins - Only $2 mill dead cap, frees up $10.5 mill.
- Alex Cappa - Only $2.25 mill dead cap, frees up $8 mill.
- Geno Stone - Only $1.5 mill in dead cap, frees up $6.5 mill.

With these cuts, that adds another $25 mill in cap for Bengals to work with, bringing their estimated 2025 cap to $84 mill.

Re-sign:
- Mike Gesicki - Dude has done about as well as you'd hope for in this offense as the 3rd option in the passing game. Gesicki also shouldn't command a bunch more $$ even though he did have more production. He's worth keeping around for an extra year or two at no more than $7 mill APY.

Free Agency:
- Chase Young, DE NO - Despite already being on his 3rd team in 5 years, Young has 22 sacks through 59 games, averaging 6.3 sacks in a full season. He's only 25 years old still, and he should come at somewhat of a bargain, so Mike Brown takes the gamble of him reaching his potential.

- Milton Williams, DT PHI - Those who wanted MW back in the 2021 draft could finally get their wish. Williams, like Young, is 25 years old, and he's having his best season as a rotational DT, putting up 5.0 sacks with 1 game left to go. Williams should come at a reasonable price and between him and Young should bolster the pass rush with quality veterans.

- Dalton Risner, OG MIN - Long tenured, proven OG who has vast starting experience at both LG and RG. While technically he would replace Cappa on the roster, he may potentially move to LG depending on what they would do in the draft (see below).

- Darius Slayton, WR NYG - While I would love Higgins back, I'm not sure it happens. If they can't work out a deal with Higgins, I decide to go with a much cheaper veteran WR who I think could put up 800+ yards in CIN's offense in Darius Slayton, who has put up 700+ yards 4 out of 6 years in NYG's crappy offense with terrible QB play.

- Josh Jones, OT BAL - Swing tackle to back up OBJ and Mims. Replaces Trent Brown on the roster.

- CB - There are plenty of solid FA CBs to add if Hilton is not re-signed. Mike Hughes, Adoree Jackson, or Shaquill Griffin come to mind as someone to bring in who should be more budget-friendly.

Draft:
1) Malaki Starks, FS Georgia - Currently the top-ranked safety in the draft and will likely go somewhere in the teens or early 20's. Starks shows the skill set, speed, and athleticism to be a difference maker at FS. Whether Bengals choose to cut Stone or keep him on his last year of his contract in case they don't want to force Starks into starting role immediately, Starks is a great add and should set up the Bengals for 4-5 years at FS.

2) Tate Ratledge, OG Georgia - This dude seems exactly like the kind of OL that Pollack falls in love with. A glass eater who has a championship pedigree. Ratledge is versatile enough to play both LG and RG. He and Risner could really upgrade this IOL.

3) DeMonte Capehart, DT Clemson - Versatile DT who can play both DT spots. Strong run stopper who also showcases athleticism and power. With better coaching to teach him some more techniques rushing the passer, he could become a 3-down DT who can affect the pass like he does the run. At minimum, he should be a good run defender and help bolster the NT position with McKinnley Jackson.

4) Jack Nelson, OL Wisconsin - Versatile, big OL who has played plenty of reps at RT and OG. He also has played in zone schemes, so he could be a great fit in Bengals scheme. With Risner and Ratledge added, Nelson adds versatile depth and future starter potential. Replaces Ford.

5) Riley Mills, DL Notre Dame - Versatile DL who primarily aligns at 3T but can also play base end. He is pretty athletic for his size, and he's been getting better every season. There is some coaching he needs to better develop pass rush plan and technique, but the motor and athleticism are there, which are core foundational things needed and a big reason why he has done well at ND.

6) Jonah Coleman, RB Washington - Hoss of a RB who can pound the rock and catch passes out of the backfield. He has good speed for his size (5'9", 230 lbs), but he's not a blazer. One thing the Bengals struggle with is being able to get the tough yards on the ground, and Coleman can help bring that.

Thanks for the in depth post, but I just cant see  till 5th round to address a weak area and no known future with Tre.... Im looking 1/2 round for DE, DT and WR areas.. still very questionable about signing Tee and if we do, that pretty much ends keeping Tre for more than 1 maybe 2 years now. 

(01-03-2025, 11:30 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Thanks for the in depth post, but I just cant see  till 5th round to address a weak area and no known future with Tre.... Im looking 1/2 round for DE, DT and WR areas.. still very questionable about signing Tee and if we do, that pretty much ends keeping Tre for more than 1 maybe 2 years now. 

What do you mean?

First off, they only have 2 picks in Rds 1-2, so they can't get a WR, DT, and DE without trading.

Second, pass rush (inc. DE) is addressed in FA - Chase Young and Milton Williams.
Then Capehart and Mills are added for needed depth.

Chase Young, in this scenario, would be signed to a multi-year deal and considered one of the long-term DEs.
Murphy would get 1 more year to develop and show if he deserves to take over for the other DE spot once Hendrickson departs.

If I'm going into the draft for a DE, I want one in the 1st round.
But then you're looking at either having to settle for Geno Stone at FS or getting a new FS in FA (none are great, but just ok), or on Day 2 of the draft (I like a couple but then you're taking away from another position if you do that).

For WR, the backup plan for Higgins is literally mentioned...Darius Slayton.
People are sleeping on him.
Sure, he may not be a WR1-caliber like Higgins, but Bengals don't NEED a WR1 opposite of Chase.
Burrow should be able to elevate someone like Slayton to be a 800+ yard WR.

The amount of scrutiny is kind of amusing but also frustrating to me...

Bengals will need to address so many positions that they won't be able to get it perfect for everyone.

WR2
2-3 DTs (+1 if cutting Rankins, which should happen)
1 Safety if Stone is cut
2 OL (+1 if Cappa is cut)
1-2 DEs (+1 if Hubbard is cut)
TE1
1-2 CBs
1 RB (+1 if Moss is cut)

That's a lot of bodies to replace.

Best case is Bengals could have ~$95 mill if Rankins, Stone, Cappa, and Hubbard are cut.
If Higgins is re-signed, that's likely going to cut into the cap $25+ mill. I don't see Bengals backloading that contract with Chase's impending new deal coming in a year or two.
So you'd be looking at potentially $30 mill, up to $70 mill if guys aren't cut.

Bengals will reserve $10+ mill in cap like they always do, so cut that down to $20 mill, up to $60 mill remaining.

$60 mill after Higgins seems like a lot to work with, but with needing 10+ guys still beyond Higgins, that cap is going to dwindle fast signing a handful of just for a few mill here and there.

Bengals should not expect to get a starter or significant snap contributor after Rd 2. Expect maybe 2 significant contributing rookies to add to the FA crop.

I think at best, we can hope to see 2-3 guys sign for $10+ mill APY, maybe just 1 if Higgins is re-signed.
Bengals are not going to be able to walk away with a haul of like Higgins, Gesicki, and new big upgrades at FS, OG, DE, and DT like we hope.
There just isn't enough money to go around for that.

(01-03-2025, 11:46 AM)ochocincos Wrote: What do you mean?

First off, they only have 2 picks in Rds 1-2, so they can't get a WR, DT, and DE without trading.

Second, pass rush (inc. DE) is addressed in FA - Chase Young and Milton Williams.
Then Capehart and Mills are added for needed depth.

Chase Young, in this scenario, would be signed to a multi-year deal and considered one of the long-term DEs.
Murphy would get 1 more year to develop and show if he deserves to take over for the other DE spot once Hendrickson departs.

If I'm going into the draft for a DE, I want one in the 1st round.
But then you're looking at either having to settle for Geno Stone at FS or getting a new FS in FA (none are great, but just ok), or on Day 2 of the draft (I like a couple but then you're taking away from another position if you do that).

For WR, the backup plan for Higgins is literally mentioned...Darius Slayton.
People are sleeping on him.
Sure, he may not be a WR1-caliber like Higgins, but Bengals don't NEED a WR1 opposite of Chase.
Burrow should be able to elevate someone like Slayton to be a 800+ yard WR.

My point is simple we need to focus draft early in these positions, of course i know we get 2 picks.. i am a hard pass on Young , good year but too muck risk for probable $$ but even if we able to sign a FA, DE still high priority.  You make valid points but i see needs just  in different perspective as i see needs, roster and future, obviously chase and higgins contract and fa will impact draft needs a bit more

(01-03-2025, 01:35 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: My point is simple we need to focus draft early in these positions, of course i know we get 2 picks.. i am a hard pass on Young , good year but too muck risk for probable $$ but even if we able to sign a FA, DE still high priority.  You make valid points but i see needs just  in different perspective as i see needs, roster and future, obviously chase and higgins contract and fa will impact draft needs a bit more

So if you focus on Higgins in FA and will likely eat up a good chunk of the remaining cap, how would you go about addressing TE, DE, FS, DT, IOL with just 2 early draft picks?

I don't want to hear something generalized like "position X or Y in FA, these other 2 in draft." I want to hear specific individuals and about what you think they deserve to be paid.

(01-03-2025, 11:26 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I get it, but I don't think it's hard to find at least a solid starting OG on Day 2, personally.
Bengals don't try to run such heavy wide zone that Ratledge or Booker would be a huge liability, at least not a drop off compared to the guys they currently have who aren't uber-mobile (Cappa, Volson) lol.
Ratledge has enough lateral agility and mobility to succeed in the Bengals' scheme, IMO, even if not elite at it.

With that said, the FA IOL I would love to have depending on how his physical will show would be James Daniels.
He and Risner are my dream IOL for this team.
Some may crap on Risner because they've seen him jump teams but he's performed well everywhere he's gone. He's been a great budget signing in his career.

I think in a perfect world, if Bengals could find a way to head into the draft with Daniels and Higgins both signed (might need some crafty cap structuring to pull off), I'd love to pull the trigger on a TE and safety/DL in first two rounds who can contribute heavy snaps as rookies.

I'm not necessarily opposed to drafting a G, but to me, they need to add something to justify a 2nd round pick.  Ratledge is just more of the same types of guys we have, "glass eater", but bad balance and struggles with interior quickness means he will take some embarrassing L's in pass pro and he doesn't add much to the run game in terms of what plays we can effectively run.  Much has been made about the poor RAS of this OL group, and to me, if we're spending premium draft capital on the OL, it needs to be done with an eye on improving that.

I highly doubt Ratledge will be an outright bust, but to me, he's just going to be one of those guys that hangs around the league for a decade as a quality backup and replacement level starter.  I think there will be better prospects available, and Ratledge is the type of guy that goes in the 4th-5th in a good OL class.  He is to G prospects what Drew Sample was to TE's.  

(01-03-2025, 02:30 PM)Whatever Wrote: I'm not necessarily opposed to drafting a G, but to me, they need to add something to justify a 2nd round pick.  Ratledge is just more of the same types of guys we have, "glass eater", but bad balance and struggles with interior quickness means he will take some embarrassing L's in pass pro and he doesn't add much to the run game in terms of what plays we can effectively run.  Much has been made about the poor RAS of this OL group, and to me, if we're spending premium draft capital on the OL, it needs to be done with an eye on improving that.

I highly doubt Ratledge will be an outright bust, but to me, he's just going to be one of those guys that hangs around the league for a decade as a quality backup and replacement level starter.  I think there will be better prospects available, and Ratledge is the type of guy that goes in the 4th-5th in a good OL class.  

I guess I look at him more as a solid starter for a decade, not a replacement-level starter.
Agree to disagree I guess.

The Bengals will never give Tee a 4-year contract for 100 million fully guaranteed. The key will be the structure. If they guarantee 65%, It will mean 65 million guaranteed.
They could give Tee a 40 million dollar signing bonus they can carry over 4 years or 10 million a year towards the cap each year.

Then they could do the following:

Base Salary year 1 - 8 million (fully guaranteed)
Base Salary year 2 - 11 million (fully guaranteed)
Base Salary year 3 - 15 million ((6 million guaranteed)
Base Salary Year 4 - 26 million - None guaranteed

Cap Hits - Year 1 = 18 million
Year 2 = 21 million
Year 3 = 25 million, only 6 million guaranteed
Year 4 = 36 million - no guarantee
This is just one example of how Bengals could spread his contract over 4 years.

Why would Bengals structure this way is obvious, they could keep a great player, limit cap hit and reduce risk of poor performance.

Tee would say yes due to getting 40 million dollars up front to invest and make money. He would be guaranteed regardless of injury 65 million dollars. He could take out insurance to protect himself from injury after year #2 (won't need in years 1 and 2 as it fully guaranteed). He gets to stay with one of the elite QB's and WR's in the NFL.

Those who say Tee getting 100 million over 4 years may be correct, but the cap hit does not need to be spread out evenly over 4 years.

Chase cap hit for 2025 i 21.6 million. Bengals could do something similar with Chase structure. They may be able to reduce the cap hit in 2025 and sign Chase to a 4 or 5 year contract.