(06-13-2015, 10:40 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Like I have said many times, when he is kept clean he picks teams apart.  Brady is the same way.  Brady folds when pressured, especially in his face.  Why does he get a pass on that and Dalton sucks because of it?  I don't think asking your offensive line for decent protection is asking too much. 

The Bengals were 3rd in (least) sacks given up in 2014, with only 23, and 2nd in (least) QB hits, with only 48.  In 2013 they were also 3rd, in (least) sacks, with 29, and 1st in (least) QB hits with 47.  In 2011 they were 4th and 4th respectively.  The only year of Dalton's career they ranked poorly in these stats was 2012, when they were 26th in sacks, but they were still 7th in QB hits.

This idea that Dalton sees an unordinary amount of pressure is simply not true.  It's just not.  In fact, he's one of the better protected QB's in the league.  It doesn't take a genius to look at that line and realize that they're above average.  Some of you find more excuses and bs surround Dalton then I ever thought possible.

And to answer your question about Brady, he doesn't get a "free pass".  He's won 4 Superbowls. He's been league MVP three times.  He's never thrown even 15 Int's in a single season.  Not once.  In 15 years.  He has a ridiculous winning percentage.  etc, etc, etc...  He's not given a free pass for anything.  He just plays better than most and has earned the benefit of the doubt on the rare occassion he doesn't.  To insinuate he doesn't anything poorly at a similar rate to Dalton is ridiculous.  And the simple answer to your question is, he's Tom ***** Brady!

(06-13-2015, 11:02 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: The Bengals were 3rd in (least) sacks given up in 2014, with only 23, and 2nd in (least) QB hits, with only 48.  In 2013 they were also 3rd, in (least) sacks, with 29, and 1st in (least) QB hits with 47.  In 2011 they were 4th and 4th respectively.  The only year of Dalton's career they ranked poorly in these stats was 2012, when they were 26th in sacks, but they were still 7th in QB hits.

This idea that Dalton sees an unordinary amount of pressure is simply not true.  It's just not.  In fact, he's one of the better protected QB's in the league.  It doesn't take a genius to look at that line and realize that they're above average.  Some of you find more excuses and bs surround Dalton then I ever thought possible.

And to answer your question about Brady, he doesn't get a "free pass".  He's won 4 Superbowls. He's been league MVP three times.  He's never thrown even 15 Int's in a single season.  Not once.  In 15 years.  He has a ridiculous winning percentage.  etc, etc, etc...  He's not given a free pass for anything.  He just plays better than most and has earned the benefit of the doubt on the rare occassion he doesn't.  To insinuate he doesn't anything poorly at a similar rate to Dalton is ridiculous.  And the simple answer to your question is, he's Tom ***** Brady!

All the stats and rankings you compile to defend the amount of time that Dalton is provided while in a passing set misses the mark.  You completely neglect the game plan and the fact that the offense, under Hue, has been one of getting the ball out very quickly.  There are a lot of screens, slants, and check downs. 

Instead of using rankings on sacks and hits, look at the actual game.  Another example of this is how putzburg is continually ranked near the bottom of the NFL in offensive line performance.  But their offense for some time (although Haley is wisely trying to change that) has been predicated on Big Jen holding the ball for an eternity, sliding around the pocket, and waiting for something to emerge downfield.  Their offensive line may give up a lot of sacks, but every time I watch them, no one is NEAR Benderella after three seconds.  That is an eternity in the NFL. 

At no point did I say that Dalton is under an inordinate amount of pressure.  I said that when he is kept clean, he picks teams apart.  Look at the New Orleans game.  They had absolutely zero defensive pressures.  Ditto Atlanta. 

As far as your defense of Brady, I just find it interesting that no one seems to give any credit to the protection afforded to him by his offensive line.  I have seen games where Brady was not even hit.  Not once.  He wasn't even shoved to the ground after a pass.  But the fact is, he hates pressure in his face.  That is why against Seattle it was all quick little hitches and screens and almost nothing down the field.  In the Giants match-ups, he struggle with the pressure right in his face. 

Yes, he is the QB of a team that won four Super Bowls, and he is a heck of a player, but people make him out to be an immortal and it just isn't true.  Heck, our own beloved Bengals broke his precious consecutive TD streak....with pressure in his face.  The fact that he plays in such a notoriously weak AFC East has helped him quite a bit in the past.  I will be VERY interested to see how he fares this season against a stout Buffalo defense, and a Dolphins defense that now has Suh. 

Dalton came in to the league with two perennial Super Bowl contenders in his division.  Look at his numbers against the rest of the league.  They are pretty damn good.  And even on the road.  He has started to turn the corner against them as well, sweeping Baltimore last year.  And although most folks will immediately point to his postseason failures, Dalton did not play poorly against the Chargers or the Colts.  He did struggle against the Texans in his first two seasons, but the entire team struggled, as they have seemingly for every playoff game under Marvin. 

The offensive line lost the starting RG and RT a year ago.  They lost the starting LG the year before that.  They had a rookie center last year.  I think the offensive line is poised to be the deepest and most talented they have had in a long time for 2015.  That is why I am so optimistic about Dalton and the entire offensive heading in to 2015.

(06-13-2015, 11:02 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: The Bengals were 3rd in (least) sacks given up in 2014, with only 23, and 2nd in (least) QB hits, with only 48.  In 2013 they were also 3rd, in (least) sacks, with 29, and 1st in (least) QB hits with 47.  In 2011 they were 4th and 4th respectively.  The only year of Dalton's career they ranked poorly in these stats was 2012, when they were 26th in sacks, but they were still 7th in QB hits.

This idea that Dalton sees an unordinary amount of pressure is simply not true.  It's just not.  In fact, he's one of the better protected QB's in the league.  It doesn't take a genius to look at that line and realize that they're above average.  Some of you find more excuses and bs surround Dalton then I ever thought possible.

And to answer your question about Brady, he doesn't get a "free pass".  He's won 4 Superbowls. He's been league MVP three times.  He's never thrown even 15 Int's in a single season.  Not once.  In 15 years.  He has a ridiculous winning percentage.  etc, etc, etc...  He's not given a free pass for anything.  He just plays better than most and has earned the benefit of the doubt on the rare occassion he doesn't.  To insinuate he doesn't anything poorly at a similar rate to Dalton is ridiculous.  And the simple answer to your question is, he's Tom ***** Brady!

Too bad in the playoffs they average 4 sacks allowed a game the last 4 years. Yeah they play great in the regular season, but horrible in the playoffs.... That sounds familiar doesn't it?

(06-13-2015, 10:47 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: And since you decided not to address my original question of "How many Pick 6s did Palmer throw in 2010"?, I will answer it for you: 

5 Pick sixes in a single season.  And not his rookie season, but his eighth season in the league and his seventh season starting. 

Stuff like this is why other teams' fanbases can laugh at us.  Well, both our QBs threw 20 INTs when they were tasked to throw the ball a lot, but still less than the top-tier QBs in the league BUT our new one threw less pick sixes than our old one did in 2010!  Meh. Oh, and both our QBs had the honor of leading the league in pick sixes at some point in their careers, so Dalton's 4 pick sixes don't seem so hot going forward if Carson's 5 are reason to be so glad he's gone.

(06-14-2015, 02:16 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Stuff like this is why other teams' fanbases can laugh at us.  Well, both our QBs threw 20 INTs when they were tasked to throw the ball a lot, but still less than the top-tier QBs in the league BUT our new one threw less pick sixes than our old one did in 2010!  Meh.  Oh, and both our QBs had the honor of leading the league in pick sixes at some point in their careers, so Dalton's 4 pick sixes don't seem so hot going forward if Carson's 5 are reason to be so glad he's gone.

When has Dalton lead the league in pick 6s? In 2013 he didn't schaub did

(06-13-2015, 01:37 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Too bad in the playoffs they average 4 sacks allowed a game the last 4 years. Yeah they play great in the regular season, but horrible in the playoffs.... That sounds familiar doesn't it?

Oh, and they lost those games where Dalton struggled (at least he struggled in the first two)?

Be careful using sound logic in your arguments.  That is sure to set some individuals on fire.

(06-14-2015, 04:25 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: When has Dalton lead the league in pick 6s? In 2013 he didn't schaub did

2012 Dalton and Stafford had 4 each. Ah, so Dalton threw 4 pick sixes when he threw 16 INTs instead of 20, my bad.

(06-13-2015, 11:02 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: The Bengals were 3rd in (least) sacks given up in 2014, with only 23, and 2nd in (least) QB hits, with only 48.  In 2013 they were also 3rd, in (least) sacks, with 29, and 1st in (least) QB hits with 47.  In 2011 they were 4th and 4th respectively.  The only year of Dalton's career they ranked poorly in these stats was 2012, when they were 26th in sacks, but they were still 7th in QB hits.

This idea that Dalton sees an unordinary amount of pressure is simply not true.  It's just not.  In fact, he's one of the better protected QB's in the league.  It doesn't take a genius to look at that line and realize that they're above average.  Some of you find more excuses and bs surround Dalton then I ever thought possible.

And to answer your question about Brady, he doesn't get a "free pass".  He's won 4 Superbowls. He's been league MVP three times.  He's never thrown even 15 Int's in a single season.  Not once.  In 15 years.  He has a ridiculous winning percentage.  etc, etc, etc...  He's not given a free pass for anything.  He just plays better than most and has earned the benefit of the doubt on the rare occassion he doesn't.  To insinuate he doesn't anything poorly at a similar rate to Dalton is ridiculous.  And the simple answer to your question is, he's Tom ***** Brady!

Dalton also has one of the quickest releases in the league.  Right up their with Peyton Manning.  The last two seasons he's ranked right behind Manning in avg time to throw.  In his career he has been 2nd, 2nd, 7th, and 4th.  The question really is how good is the line at pass blocking when he needs more time?  Particularly in the middle of the pass rush.  

(06-14-2015, 11:19 AM)Nately120 Wrote: 2012 Dalton and Stafford had 4 each.  Ah, so Dalton threw 4 pick sixes when he threw 16 INTs instead of 20, my bad.

In his SECOND season...not his SEVENTH.  They do sound a little bit alike, though.

(06-14-2015, 02:16 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Stuff like this is why other teams' fanbases can laugh at us.  Well, both our QBs threw 20 INTs when they were tasked to throw the ball a lot, but still less than the top-tier QBs in the league BUT our new one threw less pick sixes than our old one did in 2010!  Meh.  Oh, and both our QBs had the honor of leading the league in pick sixes at some point in their careers, so Dalton's 4 pick sixes don't seem so hot going forward if Carson's 5 are reason to be so glad he's gone.

Dalton didn't throw four pick sixes in his third season.  That was his second season.  In his third season, he broke the quitter's franchise records for Passing Yards and TDs. 

(06-15-2015, 12:17 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: In his SECOND season...not his SEVENTH.  They do sound a little bit alike, though.

Excellent argument.  I assume you were the captain of your school's debate team?

(06-14-2015, 11:59 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Dalton also has one of the quickest releases in the league.  Right up their with Peyton Manning.  The last two seasons he's ranked right behind Manning in avg time to throw.  In his career he has been 2nd, 2nd, 7th, and 4th.  The question really is how good is the line at pass blocking when he needs more time?  Particularly in the middle of the pass rush.  

So did Palmer when he was here.
The Bengals offense dictates quick reads and releases. Problem is, if the Wr doesn't read the Defense the same way the QB does, then it's probably going to result in an INT.

The fact that Dalton is able to stay pretty clean for the most part is a good thing, remember when our line couldn't keep Palmer clean even with his quick releases? Resulted in elbow problem and broken nose.

(06-15-2015, 02:27 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: So did Palmer when he was here.
The Bengals offense dictates quick reads and releases. Problem is, if the Wr doesn't read the Defense the same way the QB does, then it's probably going to result in an INT.

The fact that Dalton is able to stay pretty clean for the most part is a good thing, remember when our line couldn't keep Palmer clean even with his quick releases? Resulted in elbow problem and broken nose.

Honestly I don't remember Palmer being known for his ultra-quick release times here.

Do you have a link to any of his times?

And tbh, the line problems with Carson are way overblown. We had a serious issue with the line in 2008. That was really it. By 2009, we were good again.

(06-15-2015, 02:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Honestly I don't remember Palmer being known for his ultra-quick release times here.

Do you have a link to any of his times?

And tbh, the line problems with Carson are way overblown. We had a serious issue with the line in 2008. That was really it. By 2009, we were good again.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/07/signature-stat-snapshot-time-to-throw/

PS When he was drafted he was known for his quick release.
Unfortunately I have some of this data on the old MB for the individual year. PFF has it, but I'm not a premium member.

Peyton has almost always been a leader in this stat line, and CP has been ranked usually in the top 5ish.

(06-13-2015, 11:02 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: The Bengals were 3rd in (least) sacks given up in 2014, with only 23, and 2nd in (least) QB hits, with only 48.  In 2013 they were also 3rd, in (least) sacks, with 29, and 1st in (least) QB hits with 47.  In 2011 they were 4th and 4th respectively.  The only year of Dalton's career they ranked poorly in these stats was 2012, when they were 26th in sacks, but they were still 7th in QB hits.

This idea that Dalton sees an unordinary amount of pressure is simply not true.  It's just not.  In fact, he's one of the better protected QB's in the league.  It doesn't take a genius to look at that line and realize that they're above average.  Some of you find more excuses and bs surround Dalton then I ever thought possible.

And to answer your question about Brady, he doesn't get a "free pass".  He's won 4 Superbowls. He's been league MVP three times.  He's never thrown even 15 Int's in a single season.  Not once.  In 15 years.  He has a ridiculous winning percentage.  etc, etc, etc...  He's not given a free pass for anything.  He just plays better than most and has earned the benefit of the doubt on the rare occassion he doesn't.  To insinuate he doesn't anything poorly at a similar rate to Dalton is ridiculous.  And the simple answer to your question is, he's Tom ***** Brady!

means hes not getting hit.... he also usually gets rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds or less...

(06-15-2015, 04:40 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: means hes not getting hit....  he also usually gets rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds or less...

Yes, the median time is 2.7-2.9 seconds before you get sacked, so yes, if you aren't getting hit much, then you are most likely getting rid of it before that.

(06-15-2015, 04:25 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/07/signature-stat-snapshot-time-to-throw/

PS When he was drafted he was known for his quick release.
Unfortunately I have some of this data on the old MB for the individual year. PFF has it, but I'm not a premium member.

Peyton has almost always been a leader in this stat line, and CP has been ranked usually in the top 5ish.

They've only had that data since 2011


Dalton on average threw the ball in 2.39 seconds, which is well below the average time a qb is sacked in the NFL. Dalton was 11th quickest in average time per sack at 3.31 seconds.  He gets rid of the ball almost a full second before that.  That number is probably a better indicator of how good the line is at pass blocking.  

(06-15-2015, 01:10 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Excellent argument.  I assume you were the captain of your school's debate team?

If I were on the debate team, I would point out that your avoidance of addressing the point of experience for the two QBs is an admission of defeat in the sense that you have no counterpoint. 

Thanks for the complement. 

(06-04-2015, 11:09 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: I agree.  Granted Palmer, Chad, and TO were "Bengalized".  They were our top skill players on the team.  To replace them with two rookies and go on the consistent streak that we have says a lot about the guys they were replaced with.  

2011 was also Jerome Simpson's first full season as a starter. Can't forget about him when factoring in the rookie contributions. He was practically a rookie too.

And Gresham was only entering his second season in 2011.

The offensive playmakers were very young as a whole.

(06-16-2015, 01:07 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: If I were on the debate team, I would point out that your avoidance of addressing the point of experience for the two QBs is an admission of defeat in the sense that you have no counterpoint. 

Thanks for the complement. 

Yes, you have won the internet for Andy Dalton by pointing out that he makes the strategic move of leading the league in pick-sixes at a better time than our last QB.  To think, some teams get to talk about Super Bowl rings and we get to puff out our chests over our QB leading the league in pick-sixes in his 2nd year as opposed to our QB that did so in his 7th.

You and the guy who thinks our team has no talent on offense have convinced me that Dalton is da' man.  I just wish they'd trade him to the Bills for four 1st-round picks so he could stop carrying this team on his back and win win win it all!