(Yesterday, 01:23 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I think it is silly to grade drafts before these rookies play 1 down.

My take is on paper the draft created a lot of questions. Stewart is not a boom or bust due to him being stout against the run. So, at worst in my opinion he will be Sam Hubbard who was not picked 17th and a 1st round pick. At best, he gets 8-10 sacks a year in 2 two 3 years with some explosive plays like strip sacks. The grade in 3 to 4  years for our 2025 draft will be based on Stewarrt hitting the floor or the ceiling. Stewart is obviously the most athletic DE in the 2025 draft, the question is can he use that atleticism to finish and get immense pressure or sacks. I don't see a comparision to Murphy simply because Stewart can also go inside and rush the passer on throwing downs from DT and he is also a stout run defender, something Murphy was not in college and has carried over hos first 2 years.

Myles Murphy was graded better against the run in college than Stewart. I think comparisons are fair when saying we tooka DE 1st rd that was good against the run but bad rushing the passer.

I'm not sure what makes up the run defense grades he graded good so I won't question it too much. But the fewest tackles for loss of a drafted DE since 2000 points to not alot of good quality run stops. Plus Murphy has been all but invisible so it's not something I would want to hang my hat on I would rather have it as a compliment to decent pass rush production.

(Yesterday, 01:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: NFL.COM

I consider the most informative source out there

But there's a chance they didn't know his age

I like Knight. I like Goodberry and he likes Knight. Not at the position we took him or what we gave up potentially in picking him there. I do wonder how much age is factored on people's rankings. That's an area where it could show a large range in rankings. 

(Yesterday, 02:00 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Myles Murphy was graded better against the run in college than Stewart. I think comparisons are fair when saying we tooka DE 1st rd that was good against the run but bad rushing the passer.

I'm not sure what makes up the run defense grades he graded good so I won't question it too much. But the fewest tackles for loss of a drafted DE since 2000 points to not alot of good quality run stops. Plus Murphy has been all but invisible so it's not something I would want to hang my hat on I would rather have it as a compliment to decent pass rush production.

PFF has him ranked as a prmier run stopper at almost 90%

You are correct as Murphy was ranked a little higher against the run

(Yesterday, 01:31 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: There are so many so called draft experts. Which ones do you accept and agree with their grades? Which do you don't?

I have seen experts all over the board both individually for players and the entire 6 rounds? If you did into those who provide both, poor draft grades normally come down to them giving Stewart a "C" grade. Ths ranking it higher are higher on Stewart.

I gave my detailed opinion a little bit ago. I don't give out actual grades as I think it is to premature, but if you read my thoughts, you can come to your own conclusion. It was not the way I wanted it to unfold, other then JB and Chase 1st round picks, rarely does the team pick my guy and they did not once again in 2025.

I like Goodberry. He does a player rankings working with several other people. I like him because it's transparent as to how they come up with they're rankings and it can stick close and vary significantly from the consensus rankings. For instance of they're top 100 players 70 of them were picked in the top 100 of the draft. That shows they hit at a decent margin as to what the actual NFL views draft prospects. The Bengals didn't draft a single player from they're top 100 list. Now to be fair they take athletic testing and age seriously so that hurt Knight on age and Fairchild for not testing but these are all metrics that need to be used as you are essentially gambling on hitting on a prospect. 

Interestingly enough they had Stewart as they're 180th prospect. Considering he tested well (except not doing agility testing) and he's only 21 years old. That should speak to just how bad his tape, production and other game metrics were.

Gotta let things settle down post draft. Right now better questions would be why many analysts (including PFF) missed the interest surge from all the teams in OL and LB which resulted in LB and OG/OT prospects flying off the board about a round earlier than projected.

As to our draft, I am still not thrilled with Stewart. I get the whole "freaky traits" thing but I also know the bust rate is much higher on "raw" and "project" picks especially in Round 1 so to me this should be a safe pick almost always. I hope he turns into Myles Garrett II but the odds are not in favor of it.

After Stewart I am happier with the rest of our haul. Both Knight and Carter are pro ready players and provide the LB unit with a giant injection of speed. And to be honest so does Stewart. Together this should help us when dealing with these dual threat QBs (for example). Fairchild and Rivers both are from big school pro programs and both excelled in College and were starters. This is a huge retooling of the Guard room and puts us in a FAR stronger position there than we have been in years. And Tahj Brooks gives us something again we haven't had in a long time - good pass protector but a big, powerful back who has a bit of speed and acceleration so he can actually break a chunk play.

(Yesterday, 02:15 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I like Goodberry. He does a player rankings working with several other people. I like him because it's transparent as to how they come up with they're rankings and it can stick close and vary significantly from the consensus rankings. For instance of they're top 100 players 70 of them were picked in the top 100 of the draft. That shows they hit at a decent margin as to what the actual NFL views draft prospects. The Bengals didn't draft a single player from they're top 100 list. Now to be fair they take athletic testing and age seriously so that hurt Knight on age and Fairchild for not testing but these are all metrics that need to be used as you are essentially gambling on hitting on a prospect. 

Interestingly enough they had Stewart as they're 180th prospect. Considering he tested well (except not doing agility testing) and he's only 21 years old. That should speak to just how bad his tape, production and other game metrics were.

It appears someone you trust, I do not. Sorry, anyone who has Stewart ranked as 180 it is not reputable, I could care less how he came up with grade.

A 6th round grade on the most athletic DE in the 2025 draft, very poor in my humble opinion and I would not hang my hate on anything the dude says for ranking anyone based on thar grade.

Per Pally, looks like we found a 7th round pick and signed him to a 3 year deal.

Tackle Caleb Etienne - BYU
Massive dude and projected to go to Chiefs in round 7 by Brueler

(Yesterday, 02:21 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It appears someone you trust, I do not. Sorry, anyone who has Stewart ranked as 180 it is not reputable, I could care less how he came up with grade.

A 6th round grade on the most athletic DE in the 2025 draft, very poor in my humble opinion and I would not hang my hate on anything the dude says for ranking anyone based on thar grade.

Luvnit2, everybody. Lets give him a round of applause

Im not even mad. Im actually impressed

(Yesterday, 02:11 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: PFF has him ranked as a prmier run stopper at almost 90%

You are correct as Murphy was ranked a little higher against the run

I know i only pointed that out because the way you worded was like Murphy wasn't rated like that. 

I disliked the Boyd pick and felt vindicated the majority of his first two seasons until his breakout vs the Ravens and the years that followed. He became my favorite player and I loved that I was wrong on him I hope the same happens with Stewart. My problem is after last season Burrow and Chase proved our window is right now. We have to be smart we can't take wild swings on what could be. If we were loaded like the Eagles and can afford to wait for production than sure take a chance. In a off-season we needed to make alot of really good moves instead the Bengals have doubled down on some really troubling trends that have led to our struggles. Perhaps thinking they're strategy has led to the success that we've had instead of realizing that it's almost all due to Burrow, Chase and handful of others as well as some active free agency periods. Instead we've fallen back on trying to replace our good players with reaches in the draft and only signing backup level talent in FA. What's done is done and I won't point back at the draft if Stewart does under perform, instead I'll look to the future but I'm certainly not going to pat them on the back when I think they are taking big missteps.

(Yesterday, 01:29 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Daxton hill was good for 4 games. Maybe he turns into a decent slot corner. But for now, he hasnt been good

CTB ok for his first 2 years but fell off a cliff year 3. If you go by the "what have you done for me lately" way of thinking, its not looking good. But I think he can bounce back to being ok if the pass rush improves

Zach Carter LOL

Cordell Volson lol

Tycen anderson special teamer

Jeff gunter irrelevant

overall, not good at all, jim

That's kinda my point. Back in '22, most were pretty optimistic over that draft class. Now that they've had 3 years to develop into who they currently are, we have a much better idea as to actual quality of the players the team chose.

(Yesterday, 02:21 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It appears someone you trust, I do not. Sorry, anyone who has Stewart ranked as 180 it is not reputable, I could care less how he came up with grade.

A 6th round grade on the most athletic DE in the 2025 draft, very poor in my humble opinion and I would not hang my hate on anything the dude says for ranking anyone based on thar grade.

180 is pretty surprising. I like Goodberry and think he is very knowledgeable/intelligent but I've noticed a lot of players he was excited about in past drafts ended up as busts. Predicting NFL success might just be something that he isn't good at. Of course there is a lot of randomness anyways. And a ton is determined after the pick has been made. Can the team develop the player? Will the player make good choices? How is the chemistry with the rest of the team?

(Yesterday, 02:21 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It appears someone you trust, I do not. Sorry, anyone who has Stewart ranked as 180 it is not reputable, I could care less how he came up with grade.

A 6th round grade on the most athletic DE in the 2025 draft, very poor in my humble opinion and I would not hang my hate on anything the dude says for ranking anyone based on thar grade.

Some of the grades come out wildly different than consensus. They're formula certainly doesn't hit on everybody and that's why I pointed out 70 of they're top 100 actually went in the first 100 picks. 

But let me ask this. Murphy ( another player he said not to draft there and unsure of his ranking) also a big, tested well athletically, good against the run and poor pass rush metrics. What production had he given us? Could we not have drafted that guy in the 6th Rd and got just as much stats out of him? 

I will also say that they're ranking is also used like a risk assessment. The poor tape, bad production getting him a rank of 180 doesn't mean take him there. But where do you feel comfortable taking the risk on size and athleticism alone? Every round the chance of a quality starter being found drops. So 2nd round, 3rd it all lowers his risk and raises his reward. Might cause you to miss out on him but if your now taking Harmon the best pure pass rushing DT or Jihad the best off the ball linebacker or any other player with a higher hit rate based on metrics the better.

(Yesterday, 02:36 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: 180 is pretty surprising. I like Goodberry and think he is very knowledgeable/intelligent but I've noticed a lot of players he was excited about in past drafts ended up as busts. Predicting NFL success might just be something that he isn't good at. Of course there is a lot of randomness anyways. And a ton is determined after the pick has been made. Can the team develop the player? Will the player make good choices? How is the chemistry with the rest of the team?

highly graded players have a big chance at busting. But poorly graded players suddenly becoming good nfl players is far, far less common

(Yesterday, 02:20 PM)Joelist Wrote: Both Knight and Carter are pro ready players and provide the LB unit with a giant injection of speed.

And Tahj Brooks gives us something again we haven't had in a long time - good pass protector but a big, powerful back who has a bit of speed and acceleration so he can actually break a chunk play.

Am I missing something?

Knight and Carter both were lighter than Pratt, but still ran the 40yd (plus 10yd and 20yd split) slower than Pratt and I wouldn't consider Pratt to be a giant injection of speed.

Brooks is 5'9 and under 215... how is that a big powerful back?

(Yesterday, 02:36 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: 180 is pretty surprising. I like Goodberry and think he is very knowledgeable/intelligent but I've noticed a lot of players he was excited about in past drafts ended up as busts. Predicting NFL success might just be something that he isn't good at. Of course there is a lot of randomness anyways. And a ton is determined after the pick has been made. Can the team develop the player? Will the player make good choices? How is the chemistry with the rest of the team?

He has missed as anyone would. He basically has a scoring system of wanting a player to score above a 73.2 where that shows the best chances of becoming a quality role player for your team. They're are occasionally players that do really well in they're format or may do bad. They take age and testing as a big metric. This year they had Hunter Wohler as a top 20 prospect but concensus had him at 200. So it can have drastic differences. He rarely seems to call out individual players but he liked Wohler and he's like Milton Williams in the past as well as Cooper Dejean last year. He usually is more about players he doesn't want the Bengals to draft in rd 1 and we are 2 of 3 the last 3 years 

JMHO. This franchise the worst at cutting losses and pivoting. They only had 6 picks. They should have sent Pratt and Trey to the Pount Barrow Eskimos. They’d better hope Fairchild and Rivers work out. Would have liked more picks. I love Trey but it’s evident he loves playing here but isn’t settling for less than the top of the ladder money for a DE. The Bengals I guess have become gun shy after Detroit took La Porta and Green Bay took Romeo Doubs. But they need a safety more than a running back like the Texas Tech kid. But I’m sure they were thinking 2026 with him. Stewart is definitely a crap shoot. But…his disruption and pressures shouldn’t be overlooked. Third down is the name of the game. Trey, Stewart, and Ossai could be tough on 3rd.

(Yesterday, 02:52 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: JMHO. This franchise the worst at cutting losses and pivoting. They only had 6 picks. They should have sent Pratt and Trey to the Pount Barrow Eskimos. They’d better hope Fairchild and Rivers work out. Would have liked more picks. I love Trey but it’s evident he loves playing here but isn’t settling for less than the top of the ladder money for a DE. The Bengals I guess have become gun shy after Detroit took La Porta and Green Bay took Romeo Doubs. But they need a safety more than a running back like the Texas Tech kid. But I’m sure they were thinking 2026 with him. Stewart is definitely a crap shoot. But…his disruption and pressures shouldn’t be overlooked. Third down is the name of the game. Trey, Stewart, and Ossai could be tough on 3rd.

if theyre paying a player, no matter how hopeless the player is, they will not dump the player unless there's a clause in the contract where there is no dead money.

the bengals ownership doesnt want to lose money, so they dont cut bait as often as some other teams do

thats why their ownership is known as "cash poor"

(Yesterday, 02:36 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: 180 is pretty surprising. I like Goodberry and think he is very knowledgeable/intelligent but I've noticed a lot of players he was excited about in past drafts ended up as busts. Predicting NFL success might just be something that he isn't good at. Of course there is a lot of randomness anyways. And a ton is determined after the pick has been made. Can the team develop the player? Will the player make good choices? How is the chemistry with the rest of the team?

Another thing I want to say about Goodberrys process is it's very data driven. When they have these wild fluctuations form consensus and a player is good or bad conflicting with your scores. You can go back and see if there is something in there data profile that was missed and adjust your scores based on that. As I said they are big on the RAS scores as that has usually a 60 to 70% factor in whether a player makes the pro bowl. But at safety it's starting to show that testing well may not be that big of a factor. 

I know you said you like him so not arguing just making conversation. But another thing I like about him is how he uses PFF. A guy like Volson for instance you can take his PFF scores for year one and compare to other guards who had similar scores from past years and see how they scored going forward. An idea of what to expect and maybe an early idea of what your draft targets should be. 

(Yesterday, 02:52 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: JMHO. This franchise the worst at cutting losses and pivoting. They only had 6 picks. They should have sent Pratt and Trey to the Pount Barrow Eskimos. They’d better hope Fairchild and Rivers work out. Would have liked more picks. I love Trey but it’s evident he loves playing here but isn’t settling for less than the top of the ladder money for a DE. The Bengals I guess have become gun shy after Detroit took La Porta and Green Bay took Romeo Doubs. But they need a safety more than a running back like the Texas Tech kid. But I’m sure they were thinking 2026 with him. Stewart is definitely a crap shoot. But…his disruption and pressures shouldn’t be overlooked. Third down is the name of the game. Trey, Stewart, and Ossai could be tough on 3rd.

I probably would've liked the Stewart pick a bit more if we had traded Trey on day 2 and gotten another pick they're and maybe day 3. Doesn't make sense as far as wanting increase pass rush. But something about asking him to play out his final year while drafting his replacement just does not sit well with me. No other team would do this to they're players that have played well for them. It's a business but it's a business of dealing with people and we just don't treat our players with enough respect at times in my opinion.

(Yesterday, 02:47 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Am I missing something?

Knight and Carter both were lighter than Pratt, but still ran the 40yd (plus 10yd and 20yd split) slower than Pratt and I wouldn't consider Pratt to be a giant injection of speed.

Brooks is 5'9 and under 215... how is that a big powerful back?

Tahj Brooks is 5'10 and played at 230lbs last season. So yes big back. Check his scouting reports; his running game is power running inside and he is very strong also. 

Both Knight and Carter have speed on their scouting reports as plus. Hence the comment that this should help our usual issues with dual threat QBs. Both are also good tacklers - which Pratt is not to put it mildly.