(01-12-2016, 01:33 AM)Fresno B Wrote: Only difference is McCarron actually brought us back and took the lead IN THE PLAYOFFS. We scored more in the 4th quarter more than we have in the past 4 playoff games combined.

In 2012, Dalton (in his 2nd season, like McCarron) played a very similar game in Pittsburgh. The game was for a playoff spot, winner goes, loser stays home. He threw for 278 yards and 2 INTs in a close defensive battle. In the end, he threw a clutch strike to AJ to get the bengals in FG range, where Josh Brown kicked the game winner. 

Dalton was ripped after that game as usual.

(01-12-2016, 01:48 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Sounds about right for a back up don't you think And a top 7 quarterback

Lol...just have to ask...when the top 7 become a thing?

 Not saying he is not ranked there but I have heard of Elite (top 3) Top 5, Top 10, Top half, Bottom half, Bottom 10...

Would it hurt that much to call him a top 10 Qb (this year)?

Because Daltons unique why not him in top 7

(01-12-2016, 01:24 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: My opinion of McCarron is that he's a very promising young backup. I think he could wind up starting for a few teams. In no way do I think he's better than Dalton though. Pocket awareness isn't there and his accuracy, arm and smarts aren't on Dalton's level. Of course, Dalton is a top 10 QB in this league. As for the playoff game, I think McCarron looked pretty awful through 3 quarters. Partly due to rainy conditions, but you can't let the rain cause 3 fumbles and a pick. He did pull it together in the 4th, and his defense gave him the opportunity to still be in it at that point.

That's what would terrify me if McCarron ever had to start 16 games. The Bengals have a good OL. It might not be the best OL ever, but it's certainly in the top fourth of the league.

Reading the defense can be taught more or less. Going through your reads/keeping your eyes downfield can be taught for most.... but pocket awareness? It seems to be more of something someone either has or doesn't.

15 sacks in just shy of 5 games behind the same OL that Dalton only got sacked 21 times last year in 16, and 20 times in 12 and a bit more games this year. McCarron in 16 games projects to take 48-49 sacks behind a top fourth OL. That's not good, even less so for a QB who's rather thin at 6'3, 210lbs.

Hopefully we never have to find out what'd happen in 16 games, but if I were McCarron, reading zone defenses and speeding up getting the ball out of his hands is what I would be working the entire offseason on. Maybe call up the guy who worked with Dalton?

There will be no quarterback controversy. Unless AJ suddenly gets over 5 years of experience reading and throwing against NFL zone defenses, there's no competition. Though I'll be the first to admit his deep ball is at least just as good as Andy's.

(01-12-2016, 02:51 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That's what would terrify me if McCarron ever had to start 16 games. The Bengals have a good OL. It might not be the best OL ever, but it's certainly in the top fourth of the league.

Reading the defense can be taught more or less. Going through your reads/keeping your eyes downfield can be taught for most.... but pocket awareness? It seems to be more of something someone either has or doesn't.

15 sacks in just shy of 5 games behind the same OL that Dalton only got sacked 21 times last year in 16, and 20 times in 12 and a bit more games this year. McCarron in 16 games projects to take 48-49 sacks behind a top fourth OL. That's not good, even less so for a QB who's rather thin at 6'3, 210lbs.

Hopefully we never have to find out what'd happen in 16 games, but if I were McCarron, reading zone defenses and speeding up getting the ball out of his hands is what I would be working the entire offseason on. Maybe call up the guy who worked with Dalton?

Dalton is traditionally behind one guy in the NFL when it comes to getting the ball out of his hands - Tom Brady.

Now, if Andrew Luck was Tom Brady's backup, you would say that Andrew Luck has no pocket awareness.  Yet that isn't traditionally an opinion that is voiced around the NFL.

McCarron's time to getting the ball out would be faster if he had more experience.  This would make the OL look better.  Andy came into the NFL with an unusual ability to make a decision with the ball and get it out of his hands.  It took Brady years to get there, Andy came in with that skill already rivaling the best in the NFL.

McCarron's issue is hesitation.  He's unsure of where to go with the ball and what the defense is doing right now.  He's started 4 games.  It will improve.

I don't know that it will ever improve enough to be competitive with Andy's throw times.  Andy is just that good at it.

Andy's quick time to throw masks OL deficiencies.  McCarron's hesitation and middle of the pack time to throw exaggerates OL deficiencies.

I wouldn't call the issue "pocket awareness." I would call it being green and unsure of where to go with the ball when it's snapped.

(01-12-2016, 03:01 AM)BigSeph Wrote: Dalton is traditionally behind one guy in the NFL when it comes to getting the ball out of his hands - Tom Brady.

Now, if Andrew Luck was Tom Brady's backup, you would say that Andrew Luck has no pocket awareness.  Yet that isn't traditionally an opinion that is voiced around the NFL.

McCarron's time to getting the ball out would be faster if he had more experience.  This would make the OL look better.  Andy came into the NFL with an unusual ability to make a decision with the ball and get it out of his hands.  It took Brady years to get there, Andy came in with that skill already rivaling the best in the NFL.

McCarron's issue is hesitation.  He's unsure of where to go with the ball and what the defense is doing right now.  He's started 4 games.  It will improve.

I don't know that it will ever improve enough to be competitive with Andy's throw times.  Andy is just that good at it.

Andy's quick time to throw masks OL deficiencies.  McCarron's hesitation and middle of the pack time to throw exaggerates OL deficiencies.

I wouldn't call the issue "pocket awareness."  I would call it being green and unsure of where to go with the ball when it's snapped.

I think he definitely has the throwing ability to be a starter in the NFL and can obviously tear up man coverage. He still hasn't proved that he's got the cognitive ability beat the zone in the NFL and that's something that most QBs in the world don't. I'd say AJM has value to a QB deficient team this offseason.

I am happy we have a backup in AJ that can win games. He kept battling and helped this team gain the lead. He also made plenty of mistakes. His pick was a poor decision and on his fumble he has to step up in the pocket. To be fair he was starting his fourth game ever in some terrible weather. The kid has moxie and will last awhile in the league

(01-10-2016, 01:51 PM)BengalChris Wrote: With Burfict, Jones, Hill and Marvin Lewis getting the spot light from last night's meltdown it's hard to think about anyone else.

However, AJ McCarron, despite some mistakes and fumbles early played a decent second half and moved the ball. He also had some nice pinpoint passes to put us ahead. He didn't panic or fold or chuck it up in desperation. For a guy in his 4th start I think he handled himself pretty well. He's going to be an asset for the Bengals.

Just thought he deserved some credit for what he did right and helping them get into a position to win.

He played lousy for most of the game, and had a decent 4th Quarter. Whether or not he could start in this league remains to be seen, but he's given us reason to think maybe he can.

(01-12-2016, 03:21 AM)Utts Wrote: He played lousy for most of the game, and had a decent 4th Quarter. Whether or not he could start in this league remains to be seen, but he's us reason to think maybe he can.

He has shown that he has potential. 

(01-12-2016, 03:27 AM)treee Wrote: He has shown that he has potential. 

Agree. That's what I said ... I think?

(01-11-2016, 06:47 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: So what is your point really.. are you trying to say AJM is a better QB than Dalton ?? I am not getting your point really . 


My point is pretty simple.. AJM did a serviceable job as Daltons replacement but he is what he is.. the backup.. Dalton is a superior QB.. could AJM develop to Dalton;s level maybe.. will he with the Bengals.. probably not.


So let me ask you a simple question:   Do you believe Andy Dalton is a better QB right not to lead the Bengals  or would you want AJM to lead the Bengals next year ?  Yes or No is all im asking for.. not what ifs, what could be etc.

You seem to be a fairly level headed individual and I respect you for asking the question simply. 

If you want solid-to-very good regular season offenses that look great early on and against lesser teams, but sputter in prime time and playoff games, stay with Dalton. ( I think he's dependable, a good teammate and seems like a really good person, this is not personal)

If you want to take a shot at holding trophies and go all the way, you take your lumps through the learning curve and go with McCarron. The kid plays with a natural confidence and leadership that isn't taught or coached at the NFL level, it's either there by now or it isn't. And this kid has it.

(01-11-2016, 06:54 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: For all the shit Dalton takes, his elite receiver gets away with a ton. I love Green, hands down my favorite player on the team. However, he hasn't stepped up in the playoffs either and that can't all be put on Dalton. That's not an excuse and that's not trying to boost Dalton. That's simply saying our elite player needs to step up and be elite when it counts as well.

We saw a little of that in the Denver game too. I have no idea why this happens in big games with him, but I know that the quietly, patiently waiting for him (and others on the team, not just AJ) to grow out of it isn't going to fix it. "Be a pro", "Keep chopping wood", "clap-clap-clap let's go" and the like aren't going to all of a sudden fix things like this. A little fire and yelling are called for at this point.

(01-11-2016, 06:53 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: In fairness, AJ is the only Bengals QB in the 7 Lewis era playoff games to actually have a late game lead. Whatever you think of him, it's not like any Bengals QB has lit up in the playoffs in recent years...including Palmer, Kitna and Dalton. 

I've also noticed a weird trend since Andy went down. Some of the people that were hardcore Andy fans...who used to chastise anyone who offered criticism of Andy and would always tell others to 'support their QB'...are now the same ones doing some serious criticizing of AJ, bordering on the irrational. What happened to supporting the QB? Does that only apply when it's 'your guy'?

I've always been an Andy supporter, although my confidence in him has been up and down at times. He had an outstanding year, and it was awesome to see. When he went down, I thought AJ stepped up and performed admirably for a guy seeing his first NFL action. I just don't get some of the over the top criticism and negativity towards him.

^^^^ This.  It's like some people don't realize you can give McCarron some credit, and still be an Andy Dalton fan.  Compare his game to other Bengals quarterbacks and it looks pretty damned good.  Can we guess that Andy would have had a better game?  Yes.  Will we ever know?  No, we will not.  What we can say is that AJ continued fighting and put this team in a position to win.  And in my book, that is an admirable trait.

I think AJ has shown to be the best backup of the Marvin Lewis era. I don't know if that translates to the growth that makes him a starter. Some guys keep growing year after year. Some guys plateau early. I just don't know. I will tell you the things I think he needs to work on:

1. He has to shorten that release of his. He has a slow wind up that was the reason for that fumble.

2. He needs to speed up his pre-snap work. He takes a long time getting to the point of snapping the ball, and that's caused a few delay of games. His mind isn't fast yet enough pre or post snap. He has to get faster... You can't get to the point of learning to audible to better plays if you're struggling to get the called play executed in time.

3. He needs to learn to anticipate. A very college thing for quarterbacks is to wait until a guy is open to decide to throw to him. You just can't always do that in the NFL, especially with the slow release. Dalton has always had the ability to read, react, and throw balls before a guy even makes his break. AJM needs to learn to do that... He left a lot of plays on the field in his starts.



If I'm AJM (and Dalton), I'm seeing Tom House several times during the off season. The progress is stunning with Andy, and needs to continue throughout his career. If AJM wants to get to a starting spot in the NFL, he needs to seek out the kind of help the other good quarterbacks look for...


He's a heck of a kid, and I think he can make strides. At this point, I wouldn't bet a penny that he will or won't make that leap to starter. He's projecting fine, though.

AJ played just as good as any QB could under these circumstances with how heavy it was raining let's not forget Brady has looked just as bad in heavy rain it happens

I thought AJ played pretty well all things tolled. He had a crappy first 3 quarters, but became money when it mattered most. Which is EXACTLY what the Bengals have lacked for two decades now.

Wasn't all him, but he made clutch plays and dug us out of a 15-0 hole in the 4th quarter of a playoff game. I personally believe with what hes shown with us so far hes got a future in the league. Here he's only gunna be a backup I'd bet, but with AJ Id say we've got one of the best backups in the league.

(01-12-2016, 02:06 PM)gobobro Wrote: I think AJ has shown to be the best backup of the Marvin Lewis era. I don't know if that translates to the growth that makes him a starter. Some guys keep growing year after year. Some guys plateau early. I just don't know. I will tell you the things I think he needs to work on:

1. He has to shorten that release of his. He has a slow wind up that was the reason for that fumble.

2. He needs to speed up his pre-snap work. He takes a long time getting to the point of snapping the ball, and that's caused a few delay of games. His mind isn't fast yet enough pre or post snap. He has to get faster... You can't get to the point of learning to audible to better plays if you're struggling to get the called play executed in time.

3. He needs to learn to anticipate. A very college thing for quarterbacks is to wait until a guy is open to decide to throw to him. You just can't always do that in the NFL, especially with the slow release. Dalton has always had the ability to read, react, and throw balls before a guy even makes his break. AJM needs to learn to do that... He left a lot of plays on the field in his starts.



If I'm AJM (and Dalton), I'm seeing Tom House several times during the off season. The progress is stunning with Andy, and needs to continue throughout his career. If AJM wants to get to a starting spot in the NFL, he needs to seek out the kind of help the other good quarterbacks look for...


He's a heck of a kid, and I think he can make strides. At this point, I wouldn't bet a penny that he will or won't make that leap to starter. He's projecting fine, though.

Dont know if I agree with you on the first point, but I do with the the others and I believe are both fixed through a little more time and familiarity with the offense. Just needs reps (game and practice) to get it to the point where he is reacting, not thinking so much. 

For the release, I guess it's KINDA slow, but not too terrible. Hopefully that's one of the things that he can work with House on in the offseason. If House can practically rework most of Dalton's throwing motion, I would think that he can improve AJM's release a little as well. 

One bright side to all this is that now he has plenty of tape that can be used (by House, Zampese, etc) to refine technique going forward. 

(01-11-2016, 10:08 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Here is the major problem with your post.. you go after Dalton for AJM performance.. why do you have a hard on against Dalton.. Praise AJM I have no problem with that... but why bring Dalton into it.. the problem is that the people that praised AJM at same time throw Dalton under the bus and he did not even play in the damn game.. give me a break.

I am also glad you are such a great study on a QB after 4 games.. I am guessing you would have had Bruce or Kearns in the Hall of Fame for baseball  after a month or two performances when they started... 

The other problem is you are talking apples to oranges.. this has zero to do with Andy's first 4 games (which by the way was a straight up rookie with less weapons than we have today for sure ) vs. AJM that has been with the team for two years now.... big difference.. Also we don;t have a Starting QB that just completed 4 games.. we have a backup that just completed 4 games.

What we have at starting Qb is a 5 TIME PLAYOFF LEAD QB.. that is rated in top 5 to 7 in the NFL... why in the world would you trade him... but I figured out why you would trade him.. 

I will take Dalton's level right now over AJM all day.. Remember what potential means " you have not done shit yet"... after just 4 games that is pretty much where AJM stands on the big NFL picture.. I like AJM but this Dalton bashing after a MVP season just shows how bad you hate Dalton

The funny thing is, I have nothing against Dalton at all. When he is our starter I fully support him and want and expect him to play at a high level. I guess my problem is, I want us to win a super bowl. Some of you guys have defended Dalton so much that if he fails you take it as a personal loss and that you are wrong. I dont have that issue. I actually wish Dalton would have played just to see if this year was finally the year he didnt absolutely choke in the playoffs. Im a realist. When the Bengals have an off game, I dont jump off a cliff and scream we suck and Daltons terrible. I do have 5 years of evidence of Andy playing down 95% of the time during big games. I have 4 playoff games to go off of where he absolutely played terrible and didnt ever mount any late game drives to put us up. Thats the whole thing with a qb, stats dont matter. Tom Brady, Manning, Drew Brees etc etc can have terrible games but when it's crunch time, more so than not, they take their team down the field and score the go ahead points. Sure Dalton has done it in 1 pm Sunday games, but when has he done it under the lights? Of course Dalton is gonna be a more polished product, he has years more of experience. I think some of you forget how bad andy looked at some points during his first 4 seasons. AJ McCarron was essentially a rookie this year, missing most of his rookie season to injury. This was his 4th game starting. Some qbs just have it, the ability to step up in big moments and deliver. Some dont. Dalton imo is the latter. I could never envision Dalton leading us on the drive McCarron did Saturday, because he never has in 5 years in primetime. All Im saying is there are facts and then there is hope. The fact is that AJ McCarron had us in a position to win the game....the hope is Dalton will do that some day. Difference is, Dalton will be in his 6th year, McCarron in his 3rd. I care about team...and I do know this, you trade Dalton you at least get a first round pick and you clear about 20 mil of cap space to resign our own and get more pieces. Does that or does that not improve the overall quality of this team? Take the rose colored glasses off before you answer.

(01-12-2016, 01:24 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Best post in the thread. 100% agree with all of this, especially the bolded. I like McCarron. I just don't like the different set of standards.

The fact that the Bengals D limited the Steelers to 15 points through 3.9 quarters is the only reason the game was close. The offense was abysmal through 3 quarters and McCarron's numbers (68.3 rating, 3 fumbles, 1 INT) were very Dalton-like, probably worse actually. Dalton has the exact same game and the narrative would be totally different. We all know this. Instead of all the talk about Hill's fumble and the penalties at the end, people would be blaming Dalton's turnovers and how he should've led the offense to more points against a piss poor secondary. No mention would be made of rainy conditions (that would be deemed an excuse). 

My opinion of McCarron is that he's a very promising young backup. I think he could wind up starting for a few teams. In no way do I think he's better than Dalton though. Pocket awareness isn't there and his accuracy, arm and smarts aren't on Dalton's level. Of course, Dalton is a top 10 QB in this league. As for the playoff game, I think McCarron looked pretty awful through 3 quarters. Partly due to rainy conditions, but you can't let the rain cause 3 fumbles and a pick. He did pull it together in the 4th, and his defense gave him the opportunity to still be in it at that point. 

I guess I'd give him a D+ for his performance on Saturday. It seems McCarron fans are giving him more of a B-. If Dalton had the same performance - at any point - it would've been an emphatic F. Any positive McCarron has is exaggerated and any negative is downplayed. It's the exact opposite of how these same people treat Dalton.

I think you have to take the nature of that game into account too, though, when judging his performance, just like I would with any QB.

He didn't make a lot of good plays.  No one is denying that.  He's five games in a thrown into an absolute shit storm, with the weather, the madness the Steelers were bringing, the fact that his line had a lot of trouble controlling the LOS, the Steelers throwing the kitchen sink at him, the insanity that was going on around him.

But I can't give a guy a d who never crumbled in the face if all that.

Fourth quarter, you're down 15 in the Here We Go Again Bowl.  The Steelers want to end you.  That would shrivel the nuts of a lot of 6th round QB's.  But he played with big balls.

The PI call that everyone brings up?  Yes, it should have been thrown farther.  But AJ was catching that if he wasn't hit.  That was not a lame duck.

He walked off the field with the lead and two minutes to play.  Of course the defense kept the score low.  I believe that's their job. 

If a QB does that for me, no matter what the numbers say, that deserves more than a D.  Courage alone gets him to a C.