(01-17-2016, 08:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The problem is not the "type".  I have no problem with a monster like Dunlap at DE, and Moch was a smaller, athletic, speed-rusher type.

The problem is that we have been misjudging which players of this type to draft.  We have used a lot of good draft picks (2nd-4th round) on D-linemen recently with very little success.

This.  I realize I don't know squat, but I did not like any of this group of players except Moch.  It's not like anyone else got anything out of these guys either.  I don't know if the problem is outright poor assessment, overestimating their upside or thinking they will excel if we use them in a way different than they were used in college.

We hit the nail on the head with Dunlap - and I think we were all excited over that pick.  But I did not like Still from the start and thought he was a third rounder at best.

They did well with Geno, but the fact that we waited till the fourth round makes me think that they underestimated his abilities from the start (of course so did the rest of the league)

(01-18-2016, 02:14 AM)Stormborn Wrote: DLs are getting lighter and faster, the quality of OL play is decreasing, we need to take advantage of this trend. Implement guys who can bend, win with their hands and fly off the edge- or Hell, win with leverage for once.

You must be forgetting Moch.

(01-18-2016, 01:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You must be forgetting Moch.

He got hurt and never developed, so what? That means we can never attempt to get someone like him again, or preferably, better than him?

If he's the reason we're grabbing huge dudes who can't get off blocks, then we are more short sided than I thought.

(01-18-2016, 02:09 PM)Stormborn Wrote: He got hurt and never developed, so what? That means we can never attempt to get someone like him again, or preferably, better than him?

If he's the reason we're grabbing huge dudes who can't get off blocks, then we are more short sided than I thought.

All I was doing was pointing out that we are not just drafting one type of DE like some people claim.

The problem is not the "type" of player we are drafting.  It is the specific individual players we are drafting.  Still and Thompson are the right "type" of DTs, but they still did not live up to their draft status.

(01-18-2016, 02:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: All I was doing was pointing out that we are not just drafting one type of DE like some people claim.

The problem is not the "type" of player we are drafting.  It is the specific individual players we are drafting.  Still and Thompson are the right "type" of DTs, but they still did not live up to their draft status.

Moch was never a DE, so technically we've only drafted 1 type since 2009, 80% of edge rushers when you include Moch as a rightful OLB. 

Sure. They could've been more but they're probably just misses, unfortunate.

Again though, finding guys like Dunlap are becoming more rare nowadays. More teams are switching to 34s because the majority of best pass rushers fit as OLBs.

We have our two base ends and our 3T, we just need a complimentary edge rusher of smaller stature to spell on nickel downs. 
The real primary need lies in the middle, because when Geno is taking a break, it seems the entire middle is doing the same.

(01-17-2016, 08:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The problem is not the "type".  I have no problem with a monster like Dunlap at DE, and Moch was a smaller, athletic, speed-rusher type.

The problem is that we have been misjudging which players of this type to draft.  We have used a lot of good draft picks (2nd-4th round) on D-linemen recently with very little success.

Name me these types who have come into the league in the last few years....there are very few or none.


The league has largely moved away from them in 4-3 defenses. 

There just aren't many quality players who are in that 6-6 280+ range who play 4-3 DE that are good pass rushers. 

We have been failing on DL in general since 2011. 
We have been trying to recreate magic at DE that never really existed outside of pure dumb luck. 

(01-18-2016, 05:40 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: We have been trying to recreate magic at DE that never really existed outside of pure dumb luck. 

Get serious.  The Bengals have had a top 10 scoring defense in 6 of the last 8 years, but when they do something right it is just "dumb luck"?

What if I countered your argument by saying that the reason they have not drafted a good D-lineman in the past 5 years is just "bad luck".

(01-18-2016, 05:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Get serious.  The Bengals have had a top 10 scoring defense in 6 of the last 8 years, but when they do something right it is just "dumb luck"?

What if I countered your argument by saying that the reason they have not drafted a good D-lineman in the past 5 years is just "bad luck".

That has absolutely nothing to do with my post fred. Keep it together. 
That scoring defense is led by the play of guys drafted before 2011 on the DL and just about everywhere TBH. Burfict and Iloka the biggest contributors drafted recently (or UDFA). But that's not the point. The point is they have wasted valuable picks on players whose type and style doesn't translate to the NFL anymore. 

To a degree it is bad luck. 
You can't predict injuries or other things. You can't predict that a guy will just kind of stop trying once he's in the NFL. 

Still and Thompson were "bad luck"
Hunt and Clarke were bad scouting.

Clarke and Hunt are both stiff athletes who don't bend or change direction well. They were both better weight room guys than football guys. 

The magic, was Michael Johnson (one time top 10 prospect) falling to the third and Carlos Dunlap (one time top 10 prospect) falling to the second.

The key part missing, is the talent. They were both immensely talented. Hunt and Clarke never were. 

Sounds like lap making it out that Coyle would rather be with hue in Cleveland or see that opportunity through before Coming back. Which is fine, that's probably better for his career.

Tim Lewis may end up being the guy it marvin is as impressed with him as lap says.

DL will be interesting.

(01-18-2016, 06:03 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Sounds like lap making it out that Coyle would rather be with hue in Cleveland or see that opportunity through before Coming back.   Which is fine, that's probably better for his career.  

Tim Lewis may end up being the guy it marvin is as impressed with him as lap says.    

DL will be interesting.

It really sounds to me like nobody wants to come here.

(01-18-2016, 06:11 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: It really sounds to me like nobody wants to come here.

Coyle might be seeing if he can land the DC job in Cleveland. He'd only be the DB coach here.

(01-18-2016, 06:11 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: It really sounds to me like nobody wants to come here.

Yeah, right.  What kind of coach would want to go to one of the winningest teams in the league that is producing more head coaches than any other team in the league?

Tim Lewis would be a downgrade. Hopefully Cleveland goes with Horton. Unless he's willing to go work under Hue as a Db coach. Which would be telling as it relates to the state of this franchise.

(01-18-2016, 02:38 PM)Stormborn Wrote: Moch was never a DE, so technically we've only drafted 1 type since 2009, 80% of edge rushers when you include Moch as a rightful OLB. 

Sure. They could've been more but they're probably just misses, unfortunate.

Again though, finding guys like Dunlap are becoming more rare nowadays. More teams are switching to 34s because the majority of best pass rushers fit as OLBs.

We have our two base ends and our 3T, we just need a complimentary edge rusher of smaller stature to spell on nickel downs. 
The real primary need lies in the middle, because when Geno is taking a break, it seems the entire middle is doing the same.

Heres what I learned, if FredToast wants him drafted then we shouldnt draft him.

(01-18-2016, 07:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, right.  What kind of coach would want to go to one of the winningest teams in the league that is producing more head coaches than any other team in the league?

Never mind.  According to Cincy Jungle, Coyle is back as DB coach.  http://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/1/18/10763576/kevin-coyle-re-joins-bengals-as-defensive-backs-coach

Bill Lazor's been hired as QB Coach.  http://www.thephinsider.com/2016/1/18/10787352/bengals-hire-bill-lazor-kevin-coyle

Jacob Burney will be DL coach.

These are great hires. We have positional coaches with experience coaching at a higher level. Very happy with these moves.

(01-18-2016, 06:11 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: It really sounds to me like nobody wants to come here.

In the coaching profession diversity in who you have worked for over time helps quite a bit. It's less about the job sometimes and more a need for diversity in expierence.

(01-18-2016, 08:29 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: Bill Lazor's been hired as QB Coach.  http://www.thephinsider.com/2016/1/18/10787352/bengals-hire-bill-lazor-kevin-coyle

Jacob Burney will be DL coach.

I kinda like Lazor.   Will add some scheme diversity exp. to the staff.

So we basically traded VJ and Burke for Coyle and Lazor.

(01-17-2016, 08:45 PM)McC Wrote: Finished his career 11th on the all time list with 121.5 sacks, led the league in sacks in 1992 with 19.  19 sacks sounds pretty impactful.

Also, he is listed as having played for the Bengals in 1998 but I don't remember that at all.

I said I hope he'd be better as a coach than he was as a player in Cincy.

People often forget that Simmons played for the Bengals in 1998. He only had 5 sacks. His career was winding down though.