Let's just agree Palmer and Rodgers both looked pretty ho-hum outside of their lucky plays. Heck, lot's of QBs have looked pretty shaky this post-season...must have something to do with the best teams playing with the highest stakes...er something. Or perhaps they all stink!

Here is my position on all of this. I don't blame Carson palmer for wanting out of here. If he was the first bgfuy ever to do that then I might think he was to blame. buut there have been a long list of Bengal star players who wanted to get away from this team while they were still under contract.

But I don't agree that his winning one playoff game proves that Marvin can never win a playoff game or that Palmer has always been a great QB who was held back buy his coaches.

Tom Brady has lost playoff games to Jake Plumber, Joe Flacco (who completed just 4 passes for 34 yards), and Mark Sanchez. So I don't get too carried away with just the results of one postseason game.

(01-18-2016, 11:50 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But you don't realize how this works.  You can't look at injuries as an excuse.  That is not allowed.

And Marvin has just as many Super Bowl rings as Arians.

I think it's that you can't use everything as an excuse.  Think of it like crying wolf.  This team and some on here have been crying wolf for far too long.  It gets to the point that you run out of any credibility.

In year 1 of reboot 2.0 (?) many cried that the team was just too young.  And they had no offseason.  Ok, fair enough.  But no teams had an offseason, and young teams have won before.  But ok, we're too young.

Year 2.  Still too young.  Um, ok?  While we're crying about youth equally young teams are going to the Superbowl. (Sea)

Year 3.  I guess we're still too young.  No one even knows at this point.  Blame Gio for one fumble even though we lost for 17 points and use that as an excuse to explain everything. 

Year 4.  Too many injuries.  I just watched a Steelers team play with their HOF QB banged up to shit, and without arguably the best WR and the best RB in football.  They still managed to compete, as a 6 seed playing the 1 seed, on the road  Us?  We had no chance Indy.  None.  What did you expect with all those injuries?

Year 5.  Refs, injuries.  It just goes on and on and on.  And that's not even bringing up all the excuses we heard in '05-10.

"Boss, I can't come in car won't start."  "I have a nasty cold."  "I have to take my dog to the vet."  "My car won't start again."  "My cousin died."  Guess what that last excuse is meant with?  A cousin could have very well died, but at this point no one wants to hear this shit.  Other people manage to show up to work 99% of time.  If someone is calling in every ***** day at some point people are going to call bullshit.

No one should want to hear anymore bullshit excuses.  Enough already.  Either show up or not.  End of story.

(01-18-2016, 02:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is my position on all of this.  I don't blame Carson palmer for wanting out of here.  If he was the first bgfuy ever to do that then I might think he was to blame.  buut there have been a long list of Bengal star players who wanted to get away from this team while they were still under contract.

But I don't agree that his winning one playoff game proves that Marvin can never win a playoff game or that Palmer has always been a great QB who was held back buy his coaches.

Tom Brady has lost playoff games to Jake Plumber, Joe Flacco (who completed just 4 passes for 34 yards), and Mark Sanchez.  So I don't get too carried away with just the results of one postseason game.

What you are saying makes a lot of sense, but the main thing I take from this is that we've only had the chance to see 1 single QB that went winless in the post-season with Marvin play 1 playoff game and he came away with a W.  It's a sample size of 1 and there is a lot more going on in the NFL than the QBs, even though they are the most important (face it, Rex Grossman and Mark Sanchez have more post-season wins than the Bengals do in 48 years), so it's not some slam-dunk conclusion.

The knocks on Marvin often focus on the post-season and prime-time, and Palmer has done a lot better in each since he left.  It's nothing I'd bet my life on, but real life doesn't offer many opportunities for data collection.

(01-18-2016, 02:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But I don't agree that his winning one playoff game proves that Marvin can never win a playoff game or that Palmer has always been a great QB who was held back buy his coaches.

Perhaps not.  But Marvin's resume does.  Who needs Palmer to prove what is easily proven by just pointing at 13 years of results.

But I'm sure this 14th year is going to be the year.  Some guys just need a good decade and a half to fully implement their system.  

(01-18-2016, 02:15 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: But I'm sure this 14th year is going to be the year.  Some guys just need a good decade and a half to fully implement their system.  

That was the same reason that Elway never won a Super Bowl, right?

I mean it was absolutely impossible for him to win a Super Bowl at age 38 because he had never done it before.  .  .  .  never happened.

(01-18-2016, 02:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That was the same reason that Elway never won a Super Bowl, right?

I mean it was absolutely impossible for him to win a Super Bowl at age 38 because he had never done it before.  .  .  .  never happened.

Interestingly, I recall using the "Elway won it all at 38" as a jokingly simple response to people saying that we "know" what we have in Carson Palmer and that he's never going to make a playoff run.  

(01-18-2016, 02:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That was the same reason that Elway never won a Super Bowl, right?

I mean it was absolutely impossible for him to win a Super Bowl at age 38 because he had never done it before.  .  .  .  never happened.

I mean, he went to the Superbowl in 1986, 1987, and 1989.  At the ages of 25, 26, and 28.  He also was usually a top 5 QB in each and every season.  Made the playoffs at a 80% clip. If Marvin was going 13-3 every single year (record equivalent of Elway's passing numbers) then it might be an easier argurement.

So it's a little different to say that someone can't win ever win a Superbowl that has already made there 3 times prior than saying someone who can't even when one single playoff game can't win a Superbowl.

But to answer your question, yeah Elway had that label, of not winning the big one.  Same as Jim Kelly and the Bills.  And he earned it.  Although I don't recall anyone saying it would be "impossible" for him to win one.  And I don't know that it's impossible for Marvin to win one either.  It's just really ***** unlikely, given his resume.

Saying something is unlikely to happen is entirely different than saying something is impossible. No one ever said it was impossible for Elway to win a Superbowl. I mean, getting there is the hardest part. Which he had done numerous times.

(01-18-2016, 02:34 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Saying something is unlikely to happen is entirely different than saying something is impossible. 

And that is why I pointed out that you said it was "impossible".

(01-18-2016, 02:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But I don't agree that his winning one playoff game proves that Marvin can never win a playoff game

(01-18-2016, 02:15 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Perhaps not.  But Marvin's resume does.  Who needs Palmer to prove what is easily proven by just pointing at 13 years of results.

(01-18-2016, 02:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And that is why I pointed out that you said it was "impossible".

Why is impossible in quotes? 

And isn't it true that Marvin has never won a playoff game?

(01-18-2016, 02:52 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Why is impossible in quotes? 

And isn't it true that Marvin has never won a playoff game?

It is true that you clearly claimed his resume proves he will never win a playoff game.



Who cares if "impossible" is in quotes?  "Never" means the same thing.

(01-18-2016, 11:50 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But you don't realize how this works.  You can't look at injuries as an excuse.  That is not allowed.

And Marvin has just as many Super Bowl rings as Arians.

I don't know about that. That's all I hear around here.

When Marv goes 0-7 it's all explained away by no starting starting QB this year, which was the same reason given for 2005. And there were multiple injuries for the 2014 playoff game. Of course, doesn't explain what the hell he was doing in 2009, 2011, 2012 or 2013. But hey, what the hell do I know?

(01-18-2016, 07:18 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I don't know about that. That's all I hear around here.

When Marv goes 0-7 it's all explained away by no starting starting QB this year, which was the same reason given for 2005. And there were multiple injuries for the 2014 playoff game. Of course, doesn't explain what the hell he was doing in 2009, 2011, 2012 or 2013. But hey, what the hell do I know?

If you are claiming that you never hear people say "Injuries are no excuse."  then you are either lying or you you have alzheimers.

(01-18-2016, 07:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If you are claiming that you never hear people say "Injuries are no excuse."  then you are either lying or you you have alzheimers.

Dude, wake up. What I'm saying is that I hear injuries being given as excuses all the time.

(01-19-2016, 02:03 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Dude, wake up. What I'm saying is that I hear injuries being given as excuses all the time.

And from the other side I hear this all the time..."Injuries are no excuse"

I'll be rooting for the Panthers to beat him next week. And yes, I do hold a grudge.

(01-19-2016, 11:06 AM)BonnieBengal Wrote: I'll be rooting for the Panthers to beat him next week.  And yes, I do hold a grudge.

Holding a grudge is nearly always more damaging to the holder than the holdee, especially if the holdee doesn't even know about it.

I find total apathy to be a much better response.

(01-19-2016, 12:29 PM)McC Wrote: Holding a grudge is nearly always more damaging to the holder than the holdee, especially if the holdee doesn't even know about it.

Holding a grudge is like taking poison yourself because you are mad at someone else.

I will be rooting for the Panthers because they're the better team. And, Carson quit on the Bengals.

Not much we can do about Palmer getting hurt in '05 that took him out of the game. Dirty play, that no one did anything about (until this season) by the opposition.

This season, who do you want to blame? Jeremy Hill? I've seen recent video and heard talk that his knee was down before the fumble. Not much Carson could do about that if he was still here. Vontaze and Jones playing aggressively? Carson would have had no input on that. Maybe you could say Carson would not have thrown the interception that Dalton broke his thumb on, or that AJ threw in the playoff game. But, Carson threw a terrible interception in the red zone his last game. So, not sure that argument holds water.

Coaching? I don't know. Hue and Marvin had no choice but to play Hill, given Shazier's helment crown hit on Gio.

I guess I don't get what Carson has anything to do with the Bengals successes and/or failures the last few years. I'd still take Dalton over him right now. Hell, I'd take AJ over him right now. Carson has what? One more season? Maybe two?

(01-19-2016, 01:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Holding a grudge is like taking poison yourself because you are mad at someone else.

Yep.