(01-21-2016, 12:38 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Cherry picking.  Why just the last four years?  Couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that if you went back 6 years we would have FIVE more Pro bowl players.

Why the last four years? Because I am not saying the Bengals haven't ever drafted well, my whole point was the Bengals haven't drafted great for the last four years. So why would I use 6 years to prove my point of 4 years?

My point was the Bengals DID draft well then, which has led to people automatically saying they're still drafting well now, even though for the last four years it hasn't been true.

It's not cherry picking, it's the only pertinent information to the conversation.
- - - - -

"Who is the best QB of the 21st century? Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Aaron Rodgers?" - Me

"WHY DON'T YOU MENTION JOE MONTANA, CHERRY PICKER!" - You

"Maybe because Joe Montana didn't play in the 21st Century." - Me

^^^ This is pretty much the conversation you're trying to force if it was on a different topic.

(01-21-2016, 12:47 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Why the last four years? Because I am not saying the Bengals haven't ever drafted well, my whole point was the Bengals haven't drafted great for the last four years. So why would I use 6 years to prove my point of 4 years?

My point was the Bengals DID draft well then, which has led to people automatically saying they're still drafting well now, even though for the last four years it hasn't been true.

It's not cherry picking, it's the only pertinent information to the conversation.
- - - - -

"Who is the best QB of the 21st century? Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Aaron Rodgers?" - Me

"WHY DON'T YOU MENTION JOE MONTANA, CHERRY PICKER!" - You

^^^ This is pretty much what you're doing right now.

But it is ridiculous to judge a draft class after just one or two years.

Why do you choose tpo frame the conversation tyo make the Bengal lok as bad as possible.........Nevermind, I am familiar with your post.   You live to ***** and cry.  You are consistently one of the most negative posters here.   You bend over backwards to make the bengals look bad.  

Want to have an open conversation about the Bengals draft record regarding ALL players in the league right now instead of just choosing the one small sample size that makes the Bengals look as bad as possible?

(01-21-2016, 12:55 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But it is ridiculous to judge a draft class after just one or two years.

Why do you choose tpo frame the conversation tyo make the Bengal lok as bad as possible.........Nevermind, I am familiar with your post.   You live to ***** and cry.  You are consistently one of the most negative posters here.   You bend over backwards to make the bengals look bad.  

Want to have an open conversation about the Bengals draft record regarding ALL players in the league right now instead of just choosing the one small sample size that makes the Bengals look as bad as possible?

I'm starting to think you jumped into this conversation without actually ever reading the beginning. You just saw something you could argue without actually making any legitimate points and jumped right on in. I straight up said in my post detailing how I judged all the picks that I did not judge the 2015 draft class because I don't judge draft classes after only one year.

How is four years a small sample size? The players from 2012 a freaking hitting free agency. Their contracts are done. That's too soon, though?

This thread is freaking called "LAST 2 DRAFTS". Not "Lets talk about all players drafted ever". So by default we're dealing with a shorter window.

Here's how the conversation started. I said Dennard is probably going to be another miss. Someone said Another? What misses? So I said that they have actually missed a lot in the last four years. That's the conversation.

There was no disagreement about the fact they drafted really well in 2011. There was no disagreement they drafted amazing in 2010, and got a lot of solid starters in 2009. Nobody has ever to my knowledge tried to disagree with that. What you're doing now is interjecting yourself into a conversation and instantly derailing it by trying to make it into something it's not. You do it a lot, but it's honestly not contributing or helping at all, which I am fairly certain you're aware of.

Congrats though, now that Blake2Pickens is gone, you're back to the least productive member on this site when it comes to fostering or maintaining meaningful discourse.

(01-19-2016, 11:03 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I will use Gio as an example. I love Gio, but he's not what you want from the 37th overall pick. A miss doesn't really mean a bust, but it does mean you didn't get what you'd like.

He was the first running back taken in the entire draft. The Bengals had every single one to choose from and they went with Gio. So when Le'Veon Bell, Eddie Lacy, Latavius Murray, and CJ Anderson are all taken after him and are all better, how can he be a hit?

Who specifically are you arguing against being a miss? Please also use statistical backup as to why you believe they are not a miss (to avoid looking at all these players with orange tinted glasses).

Gio has similar numbers to all the guys you mentioned were better than him. How can you consider a guy a miss when he puts up similar numbers to guy you consider hits? The only guy you can say his much better than him is Bell the rest of those guys have put up similar yardage marks to Bernard.

(01-21-2016, 01:15 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Here's how the conversation started. I said Dennard is probably going to be another miss. Someone said Another? What misses? So I said that they have actually missed a lot in the last four years. That's the conversation.

So I guess I'll have to ask you the same question again since you have not answered it yet.


You claim that you assume Dennard will be a miss because you base your entire opinion on just the last four years.

So, again, why frame the conversation based on just the last four years.  it makes a lot more sense to me to judge the chances of success on a full record instead of just looking at only the last four years.

When just looking at the last 4 years Tom Brady is only 7th in the league in passer rating.  So do you consider him then 7th ranked QB in the league, or do you look back and consider the rest of his career?

Like I said before, you always look at the Bengals in the most negative possible way.  You try hard to find ways to make them look bad.

(01-21-2016, 01:30 AM)J24 Wrote:  How can you consider a guy a miss when he puts up similar numbers to guy you consider hits? 

I'll tell you how.  By trying hard to find some reason to cry about how bad the Bengal are.

Or maybe he just chose a random number of games out of their careers like he did when ripping on Sanu.

I'm excited to see what Dennard can do. I thought he was a solid value pick, based on where we got him. I'm hoping he can live up to expectations, and then exceed them. Have to be weary of that injury, however.

I'm also looking forward to watching Fisher. He's looked solid overall, and versatile to boot.

Ogbuehi is obviously a question mark, but he was regarded as a top tier lineman before the injury.

Even Tyler Kroft has shown some potential. I like him as a backup.

Overall, I think we have some exciting young players. Hopefully they develop well.


I think our future is bright. As long as we can draft some quality talent to replace our aging veterans, I think we will be in a good position. I just don't want to become that middling team.

(01-21-2016, 01:30 AM)J24 Wrote: Gio has similar numbers to all the guys you mentioned were better than him. How can you consider a guy a miss when he puts up similar numbers to guy you consider hits? The only guy you can say his much better than him is Bell the rest of those guys have put up similar yardage marks to Bernard.

Especially since Eddie Lacy has serious motivation/weight concerns. 
CJ Anderson gets more volume but isn't better. 

(01-21-2016, 01:30 AM)J24 Wrote: Gio has similar numbers to all the guys you mentioned were better than him. How can you consider a guy a miss when he puts up similar numbers to guy you consider hits? The only guy you can say his much better than him is Bell the rest of those guys have put up similar yardage marks to Bernard.

They don't have similar numbers, though. Three of the four are Pro Bowlers, three of them have 1,000 yard rushing seasons, neither of which Bernard has.

Lets say you have three guys, all have similar-ish numbers. One was the 37th overall pick, one was the 181st overall pick, and one was undrafted. How can you not say the 37th overall pick wasn't as good as the 181st or the undrafted?

Or you can imagine it like this... you and I both go out to buy a hamburger.

You buy a hamburger from a place for $20.
I buy a hamburger from a place for $1.

They're both the same quality of hamburger give or take a little. Maybe you got a few more sesame seeds on your bun, or three pickle slices instead of two, but same quality of beef, roughly the same taste. So wouldn't I have obviously done a lot better than you?

I'm not just weighing stats in my determination of if I considered it a miss or not, I am also judging the value of the pick. I really like Gio, he's a good role player. He's just not what I would want from the 37th overall pick/first RB taken in the draft. He was the closest on my list of misses to not being a miss.

I'm hoping to see a big push from Derron Smith if we loose one of our safeties.
He made big plays during his college years and we got a steal where we drafted him.

C. J. Anderson (2114 career yards) and Latavius Murray (1865 yards) COMBINED barely have more yards than Gio (3435).

And just because someone else gets a better deal that does not make a good deal for us bad.  Say I go find a used car and get it for a good price.  Then say you get lucky and find the same model car owned by someone who doesn't know what it is worth and you get a better deal.  That does not mean i got a bad deal.  Like I pointed out before when the Rams got a two time Pro Bowl QB on the sixth round that was a fantastic pick even though Tom Brady went later in the same draft.

Finally, as I have also pointed out before you are comparing the Bengals to 31 other teams.  No team in the league is going to be better than the best picks of all the other 31 teams combined.  While you claim the Raiders did better than us by taking Murray in the sixt you fail to mention that their first five picks of that draft were D.J. Hayden, Menelik Watson, Sio Moore, Tyler Wilson, and Nick Kasa.  and while you praise the Broncos fror signing C. J. Anderson you fail to mention that that same year they used a 2nd round pick on Montee Ball.

(01-21-2016, 12:38 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: First off, your defense number is downright wrong. If you're not including Burfict, it'd be 7, not 9. Adam Jones, Reggie Nelson, AJ Hawk, and Burfict... all not drafted by the Bengals. Of course, then if you are not counting Burfict, then we can't count Ryan Hewitt either, who was undrafted. So that'd put your number at 10 on offense. So 17/22.

Either way, it's a mood point, because we're not talking about drafting all time, or drafting in the last decade. I'm talking the last four years haven't been that great.

Plus, starters? That is a crazy bad measurement of being a good drafter. The Jags drafted and started Blaine Gabbert, the Jets drafted and started Geno Smith, the Bengals drafted and started Akili Smith. That doesn't mean that those were good draft picks. The last time the Broncos drafted a Pro Bowl player was in 2011, but they were the #1 seed. That doesn't make them great drafters.

That's why I included the Bengals' record over the past 5 years.  Of course you can draft starters on a bad team and it looks good, but when you are a good team and are consistently making the playoffs, then drafting that many starters is a great feat.

(01-21-2016, 12:47 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Why the last four years? Because I am not saying the Bengals haven't ever drafted well, my whole point was the Bengals haven't drafted great for the last four years. So why would I use 6 years to prove my point of 4 years?

My point was the Bengals DID draft well then, which has led to people automatically saying they're still drafting well now, even though for the last four years it hasn't been true.

It's not cherry picking, it's the only pertinent information to the conversation.
- - - - -

"Who is the best QB of the 21st century? Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Aaron Rodgers?" - Me

"WHY DON'T YOU MENTION JOE MONTANA, CHERRY PICKER!" - You

"Maybe because Joe Montana didn't play in the 21st Century." - Me

^^^ This is pretty much the conversation you're trying to force if it was on a different topic.

Haven't drafted well the last 4 years? You're trolling surely.

Since 2012-Kirkpatrick, Zeitler, Sanu, Marvin Jones, Iloka, Eifert, Bernard, Shawn Williams, Burkhead, Dennard, Hill, Bodine, McCarron, James Wright. 

That's a whole lot of quality starters/backups and roles players there.

          

(01-20-2016, 03:42 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I don't think Dawson was given much playing time to impress. He looked good on special teams to me. I think he will get more of an opportunity next year.

I agree with this and with his very limited play in the preseason.  One disturbing trend with PJ, however, is that after nearly every play I saw him make on special teams toward the end of the season, he would stand over the individual he tackled and taunt him.  He could have been flagged on several occasions.  Teammates would direct him away from the player on the ground.

It made me question his attitude (and the coaching he receives) if this happens in the very limited action he saw.  This crap is not necessary and needs to be eliminated from his play.  

I was very hopeful that by season's end we would see him playing nickel alongside Burfict, but Vinny Rey was still holding that spot and even Maualuga in some instances.  

(01-21-2016, 12:04 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The Bengals have NOT been among the best drafters the last four years. You can't even say "They win, so their guys can't get starting jobs." Other winning teams still have found Pro Bowl players to help them in the draft.
- - - - - - - - - - -

You are missing one key ingredient out of these drafts:  depth.
If you even look at a team like the Patriots, they tout that they have no first round picks on their offensive group.  But what they do have is very solid depth up and down the roster (as do the Bengals) that prevents massive decline in play in the event of injury.  
It also prevents a team having to overpay for a player because they have nothing else prepared to step in should that player not be able to be resigned to another contract.  
The Bengals have also been outstanding at signing key UDFA such as Ryan Hewitt, Vontaze Burfict, and Vinny Rey.
The trade they made for Reggie Nelson was pure genius.  
The bottom line is:  The Bengals have been outstanding at putting together a roster capable of winning a championship.  As disappointing as this past year was in terms of the playoff game, I still love this roster and expect them to be right there again next year with a shot at a title run.  

(01-22-2016, 09:34 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: The bottom line is:  The Bengals have been outstanding at putting together a roster capable of winning a championship.  As disappointing as this past year was in terms of the playoff game, I still love this roster and expect them to be right there again next year with a shot at a title run.  

And I agree more or less (sans a HC who can take them there). They've been able to find good undrafted/later round guys or guys who are capable of contributing to the past good picks. They've just not done amazingly in the early rounds the last four years is all my point was. While a bunch of decent/supporting guys are good and needed to make a good team, eventually you have to start replenishing your pool of elite/game changing guys as those guys start getting older/hitting FA. I think they hopefully will in the next couple of drafts, they just haven't so far.

You use the example of the Patriots, but that's kind of a poor example since they have possibly the best QB of all time on their team. They use Tom Brady and superior coaching to get over the fact, the Bengals sadly don't have either of those. (Completely unrelated note because it is outside the four year window we're talking about, but they also got Gronk after the Bengals picked Gresham. )

(01-18-2016, 10:06 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Really don't know why people are so sure Ogbuehi is the future LT. He was pretty bad there at TAMU and his good tape is all at RT.
It's really not as easy as "switching sides"

Simple, most players struggle for a year when they move from RT to LT, and Ogbuehi was no exception. Towards the end of the college season, he started showing flashes of dominance, then because of an injury, he was forced to move back to the RT side for the final few games.
On the Flip side, Fisher played his last year as a LT as well. So we have options, but I would think that Ogbuehi would end up as our LT with Fisher at RT.

(01-22-2016, 02:35 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Simple, most players struggle for a year when they move from RT to LT, and Ogbuehi was no exception. Towards the end of the college season, he started showing flashes of dominance, then because of an injury, he was forced to move back to the RT side for the final few games.
On the Flip side, Fisher played his last year as a LT as well. So we have options, but I would think that Ogbuehi would end up as our LT with Fisher at RT.

It's not that simple. It never has been. 
The narrative that a guy can just switch sides and it's no big deal because they're an athlete or whatever is false.

There's a lot more to it than that. It's about comfort and a lot of it is muscle memory.
What makes Joe Thomas, Andrew Whitworth and Tyron Smith so good is that every set they take in pass pro looks exactly the same. 
They hit their sets in their sleep. They are technically sound from the snap. 
Being comfortable with that from both sides isn't that easy. 

It's entirely possible he's just not comfortable at LT.

Does it really matter which side either plays? If Ogbuehi is more comfortable on the right, leave him there.

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/09/16/left-tackle-value

(01-22-2016, 03:43 PM)RiverRat13 Wrote: Does it really matter which side either plays?

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/09/16/left-tackle-value

Why is Sports Illustrated putting out a football article? I thought they only did swimsuits.