(02-05-2016, 03:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: They don't need him. They have Amari Cooper and Michael Crabtree.

As for $7 million, the following receivers are set to make $7 million in 2016:

Torrey Smith
Andre Johnson
Kendall Wright
Michael Floyd
Golden Tate

Every one of those guys had a better track record than Marvin Jones when they signed their contract. Jones is overvaluing himself.

I can see it. Jones put up similar numbers outside of TDs, but Crabtree had a third more targets. He's an upgrade and they don't have anything beyond Crabtree and Cooper. They want Carr to be the franchise — and they're doing good pairing him early with Cooper — but they've got to give him some other receivers. Especially since their running game is hit and miss, you need a consistent passing game to have something to rely on.

(02-05-2016, 04:03 PM)Benton Wrote: I can see it. Jones put up similar numbers outside of TDs, but Crabtree had a third more targets. He's an upgrade and they don't have anything beyond Crabtree and Cooper. They want Carr to be the franchise — and they're doing good pairing him early with Cooper — but they've got to give him some other receivers. Especially since their running game is hit and miss, you need a consistent passing game to have something to rely on.

Crabtree might have had more targets because he was open more often. That's an often understated fact when people talk about WR. Some WR have less targets because they are simply inconsistent at getting open.

Michael Crabtree had 3 times more 100 yard games in 2015 than Marvin Jones has in his career. Marvin Jones' only 100 yard game in his career is still that 4 TD game where he abused the crap out of that awful CB.

Crabtree has proven he can be a #1 (85/1,105/9 in '12).  Marvin Jones has actually never played in a game that AJ Green hasn't played in.

Sorry Benton, I don't see it. If someone pays him $7m+/yr, I am fairly certain they will regret it. He simply doesn't have the health/production to be compared to that category.. and I don't think the Raiders need him. If the Raiders go after a pass catcher in FA, I would expect a TE instead. (Though it's mostly underachievers and old folk in this year's TE FA.)

Look for the Lions to be in on Marvin Jones after Calvin Johnson retired. Not sure if the Patriots would get in on that action at that price.

(02-05-2016, 04:22 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Crabtree might have had more targets because he was open more often. That's an often understated fact when people talk about WR. Some WR have less targets because they are simply inconsistent at getting open.

Michael Crabtree had 3 times more 100 yard games in 2015 than Marvin Jones has in his career. Marvin Jones' only 100 yard game in his career is still that 4 TD game where he abused the crap out of that awful CB.

I disagree about the targets big time. In 2013 Marvin Jones was the 4th best rated receiver by PFF because he could get open and caught anything in his direction. (Didn't subscribe this year PFF went to hell but he did catch 70% of his passes.) Yes he had a 4 TD game but if you watch it he scored those TDs every way a WR can do it deep fade screen. He proved to be a redzone threat the entire year.

Marvin Jones has the size speed athleticism and route running skills to be a dangerous definitely worth 6+ mil.

Edit: He's not really worth the 6+ mil to cincy though because he's the 4TH target behind AJ Eifert and Gio.

(02-05-2016, 04:36 PM)Synric Wrote: I disagree about the targets big time. In 2013 Marvin Jones was the 4th best rated receiver by PFF because he could get open and caught anything in his direction. (Didn't subscribe this year PFF went to hell but he did catch 70% of his passes.) Yes he had a 4 TD game but if you watch it he scored those TDs every way a WR can do it deep fade screen. He proved to be a redzone threat the entire year.

Marvin Jones has the size speed athleticism and route running skills to be a dangerous definitely worth 6+ mil.

Edit: He's not really worth the 6+ mil to cincy though because he's the 4TH target behind AJ Eifert and Gio.

Ah, your edit makes me agree with you more (wasn't there when I read it, but appeared when I hit quote, lol), but I still think he's going to find it an awfully tough NFL when he no longer had AJ Green pulling double coverage nearly every single play. If he actually does become a #1 somewhere and has to start going against #1 CBs (with safety help occasionally)? I think it'll be ugly.

(02-05-2016, 03:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: They don't need him. They have Amari Cooper and Michael Crabtree.

As for $7 million, the following receivers are set to make $7 million in 2016:

Torrey Smith
Andre Johnson
Kendall Wright
Michael Floyd
Golden Tate

Every one of those guys had a better track record than Marvin Jones when they signed their contract. Jones is overvaluing himself.

Torrey Smith  5 year $40 million.  Average of $8 million a year.

Andre Johnson 3 year $21 million, but he was 34 years old.

Kendall Wright was limited to $7.3 million because it was the fifth year option on his rookie contract.  That is the Max he could have gotten even if he was worth more.

Michael Floyd was in same situation as Wright.  That was the max he could get even if he was worth more.

Golden Tate signed for 5 years $31 million, but that was three years ago.  The cap has gone way up since then, so a guyb with the same production would get a lot more this year.

As I have already said I expect Marvin to get 6 to 7 million a year in free agency, and I think we should pay that much to keep him.

(02-05-2016, 04:22 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote:  Crabtree has proven he can be a #1 (85/1,105/9 in '12).  Marvin Jones has actually never played in a game that AJ Green hasn't played in.

Sorry Benton, I don't see it. If someone pays him $7m+/yr, I am fairly certain they will regret it.

I'm not disagreeing overall, but one year putting up numbers like a #1 while being a #1 doesn't mean as much four years later. Crabtree isn't a bad receiver, but he's not going to put up numbers like that again. Jones, while he may not either, has a better chance.

And to clarify, I don't see the Raiders paying him $7 million (but I could see them offering more than us, I think he'll go for around $6 and we'll offer around $5). I was commenting that I can see them being interested in Jones as he's got more potential than Crabtree. Honestly, if you were building around a young QB, would you sign Crabtree or Jones?

(02-05-2016, 04:36 PM)Synric Wrote: I disagree about the targets big time. In 2013 Marvin Jones was the 4th best rated receiver by PFF because he could get open and caught anything in his direction. (Didn't subscribe this year PFF went to hell but he did catch 70% of his passes.) Yes he had a 4 TD game but if you watch it he scored those TDs every way a WR can do it deep fade screen. He proved to be a redzone threat the entire year.

Marvin Jones has the size speed athleticism and route running skills to be a dangerous definitely worth 6+ mil.

Edit: He's not really worth the 6+ mil to cincy though because he's the 4TH target behind AJ Eifert and Gio.

Then why does he disappear for long stretches? I am a MLJ fan, but can the BEngals get something similar in the draft? To play devil's advocate, if they do.... where do they spend their money? Keep in mind that Andre Smith ($6m) and Leon Hall ($10M) are up so that's $16M coming off the books + the cap is going UP.

Just because a guy is a #2 WR that does not automatically mean he is not good.

Julio Jones was the #2 WR when he got to Atlanta. Tory Holt and John Stallworth were #2 WRs.

Hoping Michael Johnson had a sit down with him to explain that the grass isn't always greener on the other side.  Just because you get paid, you might not like the new scenery.

(02-05-2016, 04:44 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Then why does he disappear for long stretches? I am a MLJ fan, but can the BEngals get something similar in the draft? To play devil's advocate, if they do.... where do they spend their money? Keep in mind that Andre Smith ($6m) and Leon Hall ($10M) are up so that's $16M coming off the books + the cap is going UP.

I'd say he disappears do to who they are playing and plays called. Cincy uses Marvin Jones as a deep threat. If a team is blitzing alot or just flat out beating your OL then you use quick passes to AJ Eifert and RBs maybe they throw a weakside wr screen his way but if your the Bengals throwing quick passes its mostly to those 3.

(02-05-2016, 04:36 PM)Synric Wrote: I disagree about the targets big time. In 2013 Marvin Jones was the 4th best rated receiver by PFF because he could get open and caught anything in his direction. (Didn't subscribe this year PFF went to hell but he did catch 70% of his passes.) Yes he had a 4 TD game but if you watch it he scored those TDs every way a WR can do it deep fade screen. He proved to be a redzone threat the entire year.

Marvin Jones has the size speed athleticism and route running skills to be a dangerous definitely worth 6+ mil.

Edit: He's not really worth the 6+ mil to cincy though because he's the 4TH target behind AJ Eifert and Gio.

Your edit sentence says it all. Are they willing to pay that 7mil for what amounts to be the 4th or 3rd target on most downs. We will see.

People claim Marvin benefited from playing opposite Green, but Green also benefits from having a legit deep threatr playing opposite of him. Remember what happened after Chris Henry got injured in '09 and the guys playing opposit from Chad (Coles, Caldwell) were no threat at all to beat single coverage deep? Although Henry had not caught a lot of passes that year the respect that defenses had to give to Henry opened up our passing game. Of course our TEs that year were Coats and Foschi, so it would not be as bad with Eifert, but it would still have some effect.

Wasn't losing Jones for 2014 one of the excuses for Dalton's drop off? Are we really sure Mike Brown saving a million bucks is worth risking that again? Ida know...

Also, isn't one of the benefits of "overpaying" Jones that we don't have to spend a draft pick on a replacement?

(02-05-2016, 05:59 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Wasn't losing Jones for 2014 one of the excuses for Dalton's drop off?  Are we really sure Mike Brown saving a million bucks is worth risking that again?  Ida know...

Good point.  Think we can all agree Sanu is not the answer if Jones leaves. 

(02-05-2016, 04:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Just because a guy is a #2 WR that does not automatically mean he is not good.

Julio Jones was the #2 WR when he got to Atlanta.  Tory Holt and John Stallworth were #2 WRs.

Julio Jones was the 6th overall pick and put up more yards in his rookie season than Marvin Jones has ever put up in a season and then put up 1,198 yards his second season. Torry Holt (also the 6th overall pick) put up 1,635 yards in his second season.

John Stallworth, along with all Steelers, is VASTLY overrated and like all Steelers during that time was juiced up more than the average WWE wrestler.

Dead on comparisons for Marvin Jones' situation.

(02-05-2016, 05:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: People claim Marvin benefited from playing opposite Green, but Green also benefits from having a legit deep threatr playing opposite of him.  Remember what happened after Chris Henry got injured in '09 and the guys playing opposit from Chad (Coles, Caldwell) were no threat at all to beat single coverage deep?  Although Henry had not caught a lot of passes that year the respect that defenses had to give to Henry opened up our passing game.  Of course our TEs that year were Coats and Foschi, so it would not be as bad with Eifert, but it would still have some effect.

AJ Green put up over 1,057 yards his rookie season with Jerome Simpson (who did nothing before or after) as his #2. In his second season when Jones put up 201 yards and his #2 WR was Tate/Binns, AJ put up 1,350 yards. The #2 receiving yardage that year? Jermaine Gresham. The #3? Andrew Hawkins.

AJ does what AJ does regardless of who you line up. He makes other people better by pulling double coverage, the Bengals have never had anyone at WR to make AJ Green better.

Nice attempt referencing a declining Chad Johnson/Ochocinco and comparing him to a prime aged AJ Green, though.

Per "report" - here's the ORIGINAL story I wrote that was aggregated and shared here.

And since I'm the reporter here and talked the people for the original story, I can offer you this, too - there is doubt as to whether he'll hit that number .... but the consensus so far is that he will leave Cincinnati.

This stuff won't really heat up until the combine.

(02-05-2016, 06:18 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Per "report" - here's the ORIGINAL story I wrote that was aggregated and shared here.

And since I'm the reporter here and talked the people for the original story, I can offer you this, too - there is doubt as to whether he'll hit that number .... but the consensus so far is that he will leave Cincinnati.

This stuff won't really heat up until the combine.

Is it more of a "7 mil is the number needed to leave" situation or just he wants a chance to shine and is probably leaving unless Cincy blows him away with an offer situation? 

And has TJ tried talking sense into the man?

The Bengals also have a very similar player to Marvin Jones in James Wright. Size speed athleticism explosion...really wish he hadnt been injured two years in a row. If Marvin Jones isn't back next year Wright really has a chance to show what he's got even over a more proven vet like Sanu ( if he's back) because of his measurables.

(02-05-2016, 06:18 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Per "report" - here's the ORIGINAL story I wrote that was aggregated and shared here.

And since I'm the reporter here and talked the people for the original story, I can offer you this, too - there is doubt as to whether he'll hit that number .... but the consensus so far is that he will leave Cincinnati.

This stuff won't really heat up until the combine.

What about Lap's contention that Iloka is as good as gone?  Not to change the subject or anything.

(02-05-2016, 06:18 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Per "report" - here's the ORIGINAL story I wrote that was aggregated and shared here.

And since I'm the reporter here and talked the people for the original story, I can offer you this, too - there is doubt as to whether he'll hit that number .... but the consensus so far is that he will leave Cincinnati.

This stuff won't really heat up until the combine.

Thanks Jim, the thing that sticks out to me about that article is the quote at the very end.

“It's been four years, and there was ups and downs and stuff like that. I've had a great career in Cincinnati. I've loved everyone. I loved the camaraderie from top to bottom; just a first-class organization. I tip my hat off to how they run the organization. But, you know, I'm a free agent. There's nothing but happiness that's coming out of this whether I go or stay."



Maybe I am reading too much into it, but wouldn't a guy who was intent on returning say how much he loves everyone and loves the camaraderie, not how much he loved it? There seemed to be a lot of past tense in his NFL Network interview.