(03-04-2016, 01:34 AM)Gamma Ray Tan Wrote: How can the Bengals say they "build through the draft" rather than go after top free agents, but when those guys they draft (Iloka) to build a team are free agents.....they let them go. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of "building through the draft"?

yup. now mike brown is just being cheap...why do all this good drafting/scouting if we are just going to let them go?

Hobspin does have a rose at the bottom of this manure pile, even though Thornton planted it. Bringing up his situation and Leon Hall is something we should really be optimistic about. You may be skeptical that Brown and Co. will capitalize on a medium sized fish for cheap bait, but the potential is there. As time goes on, Cincy stands as one of the few teams that play out almost all their vet contracts for better or worse. I have to think that this combined with their debated success and roster to "win now" has to put them in discussion for a solid aging cut vet or an edge for an average FA to plug a hole. You can laugh and think I'm hoping for another AJ Hawk, but I'm saying when they do throw only 6 million at a few FA's after resigning half their own, look for the names they talk to as being better than you expected. They're going to get more actual attention (not just to be stepping stones), its up to management to capitalize on this.

In effect, they're changing the game...intentionally or not. We all talk about how a 50 million dollar deal is really only a 15 million dollar deal because of the guaranteed money. After guaranteed money, you have this variable of how close to a guarantee is the non-guaranteed money. If you're stock is in Cincy, you have a better chance of keeping your investment if nothing else that Mike Brown hates dead money with a passion. That's why I chuckled a bit when I heard it lumped into part of that 3.5M figure, I'm like who's the last significant dead money number? Like almost a mil to Lawfirm or the center that shall not be named?

I want to see the team do some major front loading this year and spend like...99% up to the cap when all is said and done. They have an emergency need to sign some dudes off the street? OK...restructure and move some of that money to next year. I thought that I was wrong about how this works, but if they really let the bulk of their dudes leave and don't make an aggressive play on another dude who is really good I'm going to have to just see it for what it is. A team that has had some hits on drafts but has absolutely no idea how to work the cap. Iloka and at least one of the corners should have been signed already. A tag for Iloka would have been very reasonable this year. I have a bad feeling about this FA period rather suddenly.

^"I have a bad feeling about this FA period rather suddenly." - Bilbo

No doubt things just got really chilly up in here.

(03-04-2016, 02:27 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: I want to see the team do some major front loading this year and spend like...99% up to the cap when all is said and done.  They have an emergency need to sign some dudes off the street?  OK...restructure and move some of that money to next year.  I thought that I was wrong about how this works, but if they really let the bulk of their dudes leave and don't make an aggressive play on another dude who is really good I'm going to have to just see it for what it is.  A team that has had some hits on drafts but has absolutely no idea how to work the cap.  Iloka and at least one of the corners should have been signed already.  A tag for Iloka would have been very reasonable this year.  I have a bad feeling about this FA period rather suddenly.

I wouldn't say they don't know how to work the cap, they're one of the few teams that have bad contracts and typically keep the right guys.  I can't be mad at them for losing MJ or Collins and look they kept Dunlap and Whit instead (both Pro Bowlers).  They have AJ, Geno and Andy all signed long term and nothing close to a messy holdout or player holding the team hostage.  I wish Iloka or Jones were signed, but FA works both ways.  Maybe Iloka wants to hit the open market and see if there really is a team desperate enough to offer him a 8.5-9M/yr offer, especially if some see FA and the draft thin at safety.  If they transitioned him like I wanted, they at least get the chance to match, but they're calling his bluff I guess and hoping for an 11th hour agreement.  Going back to your orignial point, I'm all for spending more this offseason, but the right way.  Hobspin's numbers are off, I should have saw more specific numbers they'd set aside for signing their own and I would have actually made it through without the annual eye-roll.  You and me both would rather have Iloka signed, lets say he prices himself out.  You move on and retain Nelson even by front loading (as you mention) and lets pay some of these guys today.  I fear that Zeitler may see himself in a similar situation, and we know Cincy pays CBs and T's big money before S's and G's. I'm not saying they'll lose everyone though. Maybe Eifert sees his injury history and takes the money this offseason, maybe Gio sees his role and takes like 4M/yr, maybe Dre comes off his high horse and the team sees the lack of groomed corners and finds a match. There is potential to get needed deals done to know positions you'll need to focus on long term.


I think we have to remove ourselves from who the player was and understand they're now a free agent.  I trust their system but inside I feel like they're losing ground when the two big late round finds could very well be moving on as the best player at their position on the market.  If the price is right, it will happen.  In comparing late round gems, I'm not willing to pay Marvin Jones Houshmandzadeh money and be Seattle's one and done (hate that phrase anymore) version of Houshmandzadeh.  I agree that they draft well, but there have been some whiffs lately, specifically on the DL and we're still hopeful yet undecided in terms of consistency of some of the young DBs.  One thing that might make Iloka look so great is he's the best long term DB in terms of actually proving himself vs potential.  So of coarse draft well, but keep the standard high because the trust is missing on high picks sets you back some even if you hit some later, and you combine that with the quantity they have hitting the market this year and we get a bit uneasy.  The window is fine, the core is intact but a lot of us understand we were VERY healthy (besides the QB late) and want to be even more loaded to actually win a ring but not at the cost of mortgaging the future (not that they'd actually do that).  So if they have issues with losing solid FA's and not being able to wrap up needed players like Eifert, then we really need to be optimistic they get a few ring chasers looking for a two year deal as an actual two year deal with actual money and believe in an actual shot at a ring.  It's even more important they get the right couple vets when you consider how many rookies they end up redshirting anyway. The "model" does work, we're just hitting a lul that's going to make things look worse than they actually are even a week from now.
   

(03-04-2016, 02:35 AM)Atomic Orange Wrote: ^"I have a bad feeling about this FA period rather suddenly." - Bilbo

No doubt things just got really chilly up in here.

it always get cold around here when FA comes around.  

(03-03-2016, 10:55 PM)J24 Wrote: We have nearly 40 million in cap  room we could have close to 50 million if we cut Hawk,  Rey M, Nugent, and Peko. There is no way we only have 15 million to spend. If that's the case then Mike Brown should be forced to sell the team because he obviously doesn't care about winning or lacks the ability to win.

The funniest part is your angry like its new for us not to spend lol

I'm ready for the yearly lay out of our expenses. And the ever so interesting explaination of how we have 50 mil in cap space but actually only have 40 dollars. May be my favorite part of the offseason

Guys. This is a tough year for our own FA's leaving. History says that the Bengals have been able to "hit" in the draft more often than not and replace guys where needed. It has been this way for at least 5 years, where the team has been near the top of the league in-terms of depth and talent. There's no reason to believe it won't continue, even if the names are different.

My biggest gripe, as others have said, is the lack of a killer instinct. They seem content with rolling with this model and just taking chances with the playoffs each year. I'd like to see them employ this strategy and go all out for a year or two, with the understanding that if it blows up, it might mean a few lean years. I could live with that knowing we took an all out shot to win a ring.

(03-04-2016, 09:57 AM)Housh Wrote: I'm ready for the yearly lay out of our expenses. And the ever so interesting explaination of how we have 50 mil in cap space but actually only have 40 dollars. May be my favorite part of the offseason

That is why I started this thread. I read the article from Bengals.com yesterday with the annual layout and found it quite amusing again. Some of my favorite portions of that article.

"That patience is going to be tested next week when 11 of their starters and regulars go on the market in free agency with what is believed to be about $15 million to spend of the NFL’s $155 million salary cap."

“I don’t think they are (panicking) now. Because they draft well. I’m pretty sure they’ve got a plan for everything. They don’t have major holes if you have coming back your quarterback, your top tight end, top wide receiver, and young guys on the offensive line waiting to play. They have a good defense coming back.”

"The gears have started to grind on the way to $155 M when the NFL’s new financial year opens next week. Backup center T.J. Johnson is expected to be tendered a $600,000 exclusive rights contract. Their allotments for injury protection, incentives, and draft choices add up to about $12 million. Another $3.5 million or so is earmarked for potential dead money; players cut, the off-season workout program, and practice squad salaries."

Full article is at: http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/View-from-both-sides/3223b9ba-3afd-45c8-9145-9c709fa7c0ca

I think we've heard it all before with this salary cap bs. The front office and Hobs aren't fooling anyone. This is the same front office that paid Leon 9 million last year but cried broke when it came to tagging Iloka for 10 million this year. Iloka would have played 99% of the snaps for that 10 million compared to Halls 35%. And they try to sell the fans that their model is "good business".

Now watch the teams who are over the cap, or have like 4 million in cap space sign big time free agents to big time contracts........ And do it every year! We all know free agency splashes isn't the way to go to win a championship, but for the model sake, teams that "win free agency" tend to be able to win it every offseason. Doesn't seem to hurt their "future". In fact, if you look at the teams with the most salary cap, you have to scratch your head as to how. Some of those teams are big spenders each offseason.

(03-03-2016, 10:02 PM)JungleRock85 Wrote: Every year Hobson gets his orders from the front office to temper expectations for free agency and remind everyone the team refuses to believe they can sign impact free agents and that the rest of the league envies our "model". This year he is at it again. His article states after draft picks and injury insurance and blah blah blah that the team will have 15 million to spend this year for free agency...what a joke!!!!

Gosh! Just imagine how sweet life would be if Hobson didn't come to your door every morning with a gun in hand to force you to read his stuff.. 
News Flash! He's paid by the Bengals. Would you prefer that he only write how badly the team is run and how your own agenda is the ONLY agenda worth reading?  

(03-04-2016, 11:58 AM)grampahol Wrote: Gosh! Just imagine how sweet life would be if Hobson didn't come to your door every morning with a gun in hand to force you to read his stuff.. 
News Flash! He's paid by the Bengals. Would you prefer that he only write how badly the team is run and how your own agenda is the ONLY agenda worth reading?  

 good post grampahol 

(03-04-2016, 10:30 AM)JungleRock85 Wrote: That is why I started this thread. I read the article from Bengals.com yesterday with the annual layout and found it quite amusing again. Some of my favorite portions of that article.

"That patience is going to be tested next week when 11 of their starters and regulars go on the market in free agency with what is believed to be about $15 million to spend of the NFL’s $155 million salary cap."

“I don’t think they are (panicking) now. Because they draft well. I’m pretty sure they’ve got a plan for everything. They don’t have major holes if you have coming back your quarterback, your top tight end, top wide receiver, and young guys on the offensive line waiting to play. They have a good defense coming back.”

"The gears have started to grind on the way to $155 M when the NFL’s new financial year opens next week. Backup center T.J. Johnson is expected to be tendered a $600,000 exclusive rights contract. Their allotments for injury protection, incentives, and draft choices add up to about $12 million. Another $3.5 million or so is earmarked for potential dead money; players cut, the off-season workout program, and practice squad salaries."

Full article is at: http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/View-from-both-sides/3223b9ba-3afd-45c8-9145-9c709fa7c0ca

Literally, Hobson could print the same article year after year, just change the salary cap number.  I can't tell you the last time I logged onto that site because it is basically not worth reading.  Saying you "don't have major holes" when you are possibly losing two starting cornerbacks, both safeties, and two of your top three wide receivers is absolutely laughable...

As others have said, my major complaint about this organization is that they never go "all in".  It's always about the future. Unfortunately, that future never seems to arrive...

(03-03-2016, 10:02 PM)JungleRock85 Wrote: Every year Hobson gets his orders from the front office to temper expectations for free agency and remind everyone the team refuses to believe they can sign impact free agents and that the rest of the league envies our "model". This year he is at it again. His article states after draft picks and injury insurance and blah blah blah that the team will have 15 million to spend this year for free agency...what a joke!!!!

I will never understand the venom spewed at this guy, and I am similarly confused by questioning the Bengal's Upper Management.  

First, Hobson is at the stadium and he is only writing what he is provided.  If he gave you pie in the sky ideas like "the Bengals are interested in Von Miller and are prepared to make a big move", the fan base would be devastated when nothing like that would happen.  The team has been very transparent on their plans to the fan base, and their players for that matter.

The Bengals want the likes of Reggie Nelson and Adam Jones back, but not at a long-term ridiculous salary.  They want Iloka and Marvin Jones back, but they can't overpay for them and weaken the team in other areas.  

Yes, they will have money freed up by not re-signing Andre Smith and Leon Hall's 9million are also off the books, but that doesn't mean you immediately give that money to MLJ, Iloka, Adam Jones, and Reggie.  There will be contracts for Eifert, Dre Kirk, and Zeitler just around the corner.  

I am as frustrated as anyone by the lack of a Super Bowl win as anyone, but the team is in place to accomplish that now and had a real shot last year, despite losing their starting QB.  Not many teams could say that.

I love that this team is in the running every year now.  It is not time to abandon what has worked.

One other point:  If Andre Smith, Reggie Nelson, Mo Sanu, and MLJ aren't able to be re-signed, they would yield the Bengals a tremendous value of several potentially high (3rd round is the highest) compensatory selections.  Those selections are able to be traded next year.  

Ah I see this is the thread for those who are stomping their feet to win the offseason.  

Yes it would be nice to keep all the guys.   Either way you have to trust their drafting.    

And we will need money to resign Eifert, Gio, and Zeitler.   those are must signs.

Katie has shown time and again to handle the cap and structure the contracts to be cap friendly.

(03-04-2016, 10:30 AM)JungleRock85 Wrote: Their allotments for injury protection, incentives, and draft choices add up to about $12 million. Another $3.5 million or so is earmarked for potential dead money; players cut, the off-season workout program, and practice squad salaries."

The offseason workout program?  What the hell does that mean?  Aren't we talking about cap space?

Same goes for practice squad salaries.  Since when do those count against the cap?  Last I checked, only your top 51 guys count against the cap.  Not even your full active 53 count.  And your practice squad sure as hell doesn't.

That's what always so hilarious about the money they earmark for the draft.  Inevitably, 3-5 of them aren't in your top 51 salaries, so they have nothing to do with the cap.  Nothing.  The remaining players, well you have to look at how much they make vs the spot they're taking.  Say, to make room for 1st Round Pick A, and his 1.9 mil cap hit, you release Veteran Turd B, and his 1.20 mil cap hit.  You need to have a total of .7 mil to make room for that player.  And after that, the 2nd and 3rd rounders make dick.

This idea that they need 12 million dollars IN CAP SPACE for the draft and incentives, and injury protection is such a blatant lie it's actually insulting.

What do the teams that only have like 15 mil in space actually have, when you figure in their drafts and offseason programs?  -27 million dollars.  Man, we're going to see some big cuts here soon.  

(03-04-2016, 01:34 AM)Gamma Ray Tan Wrote: How can the Bengals say they "build through the draft" rather than go after top free agents, but when those guys they draft (Iloka) to build a team are free agents.....they let them go. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of "building through the draft"?

Let them go?

They signed the following drafted players to second contracts:

Leon Hall
Rey M.
Andrew Whitworth
Andre Smith
Andy Dalton
AJ Green
Carlos Dunlap
Geno Atkins
Domata Peko
Clint Boling

And gave second contracts to the following acquisitions from FA or trade:

Reggie Nelson
Vontaze Burfict
Michael Johnson

This is the core of your team.  They can't sign all of them, but they have done an excellent job drafting and developing talent to replace them should they not be able to sign them.

If you would rather see more splashy moves and moronic drafting, there is a team a few hundred miles up north that would love to have you.  I will gladly sit back and watch this team have a legitimate shot at a title year after year. 

One last point:  Last year's squad is probably the most talented Bengals team I have ever seen and I have been around for all of them.  I understand that they didn't win a playoff game, but my point is that each year under Dalton, this team has improved.  I couldn't be more excited about where this team is and where they are headed.  I certainly don't need a huge splash in FA to appease my need for national attention to our team.  Just keep improving and good things will happen.  

FA period almost here. Time to take a break for a couple weeks until all the madness ends.

Oh, and I'm just waiting for the day when these expenses that fall outside the actual cap reach epic levels of hilarity.  

"In addition to the workout program, the Bengals have $1700 earmaked for toiletries, $185 for Water Jugs, $2,650 for coaching accessories (Clipboards, whistles, motivational shirts, cones, etc).  Couple these misc expenses with their Duke Energy account, Christmas party, and Fioptics blazing fast 30 MPS internet, and you left with a decent chuck of change.  

All said and done, this organization is flat broke constantly on the verge of total collapse.  They're one clogged toilet needing to be snaked, or a roof leak away from financial ruin.  It's a testament to Mike and his loving family, that despite this, they field a full team.  All this after they picked up 1.7 mil of 20 million in stadium upgrades they forced upon the county.

While some say signed the next great FA, rational people say set aside money for Rumpke, Verizon, the offseason program, and the practice squad.  

Let other teams rob Peter to pay Paul, so that they can have their Gatorade.  We've got bills to pay, muthafuckers!"