(03-04-2016, 12:59 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: The offseason workout program?  What the hell does that mean?  Aren't we talking about cap space?

Same goes for practice squad salaries.  Since when do those count against the cap?  Last I checked, only your top 51 guys count against the cap.  Not even your full active 53 count.  And your practice squad sure as hell doesn't.

That's what always so hilarious about the money they earmark for the draft.  Inevitably, 3-5 of them aren't in your top 51 salaries, so they have nothing to do with the cap.  Nothing.  The remaining players, well you have to look at how much they make vs the spot they're taking.  Say, to make room for 1st Round Pick A, and his 1.9 mil cap hit, you release Veteran Turd B, and his 1.20 mil cap hit.  You need to have a total of .7 mil to make room for that player.  And after that, the 2nd and 3rd rounders make dick.

This idea that they need 12 million dollars IN CAP SPACE for the draft and incentives, and injury protection is such a blatant lie it's actually insulting.

What do the teams that only have like 15 mil in space actually have, when you figure in their drafts and offseason programs?  -27 million dollars.  Man, we're going to see some big cuts here soon.  

Every year it basically comes down to "who are you going to believe... your own eyes, those independent sources, or your trusty front office staff"?  It is insulting because they act like no one else knows how to do math.  And that is what it is... it's not rocket science, it is math.

(03-04-2016, 10:30 AM)JungleRock85 Wrote: "That patience is going to be tested next week when 11 of their starters and regulars go on the market in free agency with what is believed to be about $15 million to spend of the NFL’s $155 million salary cap."

“I don’t think they are (panicking) now. Because they draft well. I’m pretty sure they’ve got a plan for everything. They don’t have major holes if you have coming back your quarterback, your top tight end, top wide receiver, and young guys on the offensive line waiting to play. They have a good defense coming back.”

"The gears have started to grind on the way to $155 M when the NFL’s new financial year opens next week. Backup center T.J. Johnson is expected to be tendered a $600,000 exclusive rights contract. Their allotments for injury protection, incentives, and draft choices add up to about $12 million. Another $3.5 million or so is earmarked for potential dead money; players cut, the off-season workout program, and practice squad salaries."

Lol. He's making up a new ones. I don't remember him ever using these. I guess he really had to stretch to explain money away. These are so ridiculous it's almost trolling on Hobs' part. Btw, he seems to be prepping us for losing our own players in addition to the status quo when it comes to external FA's. And why even bring up a 600k contract for TJ Johnson? 

(03-04-2016, 12:51 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Ah I see this is the thread for those who are stomping their feet to win the offseason.  

Yes it would be nice to keep all the guys.   Either way you have to trust their drafting.    

And we will need money to resign Eifert, Gio, and Zeitler.   those are must signs.

Katie has shown time and again to handle the cap and structure the contracts to be cap friendly.

You always seem like you're competing for the OSUfan/Denny trophy for biggest homer. 

Seriously though, who said anything about "winning the offseason" or signing Von Miller? People tend to get frustrated when they read the same tired lies every offseason. Especially when these same offseason lies have been followed by weak FA periods, which are then followed by yet another playoff loss.

People are sick of the pattern and the status quo, and it's perfectly understandable. They see what an owner looks like when he wants to win championships, and Mike Brown doesn't fit that profile. He's quiet, his few comments reek of arrogance and contentment, and lastly - he doesn't show he wants to win titles with his wallet. Ever.

I like how you say "it would be nice to keep all the guys" but "we will need money to sign Eifert, Gio, and Zeitler". What??

So are you saying Iloka, Nelson, Pacman and MLJ aren't "must signs" but Eifert, Gio and Zeitler are?

Lastly, I agree that Mrs Blackburn is good at staying well under the cap. That's part of the problem. The Bengals have publicly admitted to mimicking the Steelers FO. When it comes to drafting well and avoiding FA's like the plague, that's true. That said, the Steelers often hug the cap and they restructure contracts more often than most in order to stay close to the cap ceiling.

The Bengals approach - in comparison - looks lazy and cheap. They're very rarely right up against the cap ceiling and they often keep 10+ million in cap space "for future signings". Not restructuring players like Leon Hall ($9 million last year) gives the appearance that the Bengals have more loyalty and commitment to individuals than they do to winning championships.

(03-04-2016, 01:01 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Let them go?

They signed the following drafted players to second contracts:

Leon Hall
Rey M.
Andrew Whitworth
Andre Smith
Andy Dalton
AJ Green
Carlos Dunlap
Geno Atkins
Domata Peko
Clint Boling

And gave second contracts to the following acquisitions from FA or trade:

Reggie Nelson
Vontaze Burfict
Michael Johnson

This is the core of your team.  They can't sign all of them, but they have done an excellent job drafting and developing talent to replace them should they not be able to sign them.

If you would rather see more splashy moves and moronic drafting, there is a team a few hundred miles up north that would love to have you.  I will gladly sit back and watch this team have a legitimate shot at a title year after year. 

One last point:  Last year's squad is probably the most talented Bengals team I have ever seen and I have been around for all of them.  I understand that they didn't win a playoff game, but my point is that each year under Dalton, this team has improved.  I couldn't be more excited about where this team is and where they are headed.  I certainly don't need a huge splash in FA to appease my need for national attention to our team.  Just keep improving and good things will happen.  

Because no one can ever Draft Well AND Pick up a few difference making free agents BOTH! That never happens!!! (Cough....Denver Broncos.....Cough.....Super Bowl) The joke is on you Denver! Now you have to lug that pesky Lombardi Trophy around! That's what you get for Drafting well and Signing some top free agents to upgrade your team! SUCKERS!

......Come on, you have to be smarter than that. 

(03-04-2016, 01:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The Bengals have publicly admitted to mimicking the Steelers FO. When it comes to drafting well and avoiding FA's like the plague, that's true. That said, the Steelers often hug the cap and they restructure contracts more often than most in order to stay close to the cap ceiling.

The Bengals approach - in comparison - looks lazy and cheap. They're very rarely right up against the cap ceiling and they often keep 10+ million in cap space "for future signings". Not restructuring players like Leon Hall ($9 million last year) gives the appearance that the Bengals have more loyalty and commitment to individuals than they do to winning championships.

But this is just "perception" and not the "truth".


Over the last three years the Bengals have spent much more on player payroll then the Steelers.

People around here are too impressed with big "play money" contracts that are handed out in free agency but never paid.  When it comes to the actual amount of "cash spent" the Bengals have not been close to the bottom over the last few years.

(03-04-2016, 01:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You always seem like you're competing for the OSUfan/Denny trophy for biggest homer. 

Ahh yes... Denny is what we are missing from this annual conversation.  He would jump in with some story about how great of a guy Mike Brown is because he rode on the golf cart with him at training camp last year.  And then the "THIS IS THE YEAR THE BENGALS WIN IT ALL, MARK IT DOWN".  And of course it would be true, because he typed it in all caps 

Coaches: .........We have money to spend to help us get over the hump this season.

MB: ...........and Jimmy Cracked Corn too !

(03-04-2016, 12:51 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Ah I see this is the thread for those who are stomping their feet to win the offseason.  

Yes it would be nice to keep all the guys.   Either way you have to trust their drafting.    

And we will need money to resign Eifert, Gio, and Zeitler.   those are must signs.

Katie has shown time and again to handle the cap and structure the contracts to be cap friendly.

I beg to differ. Only Eifert will be considered a must sign by the Bengals. I'm willing to bet that Gio and Zeitler will be treated like Marvin Jones and George Iloka were last year and the team will offer them semi-competitive offers in 2017. They may sign those offers or they may test the free agent market like the players are this year.

The team could have sign Iloka to a long term deal last year and he reportedly wanted one. But the team opted to not offer one and here we are this year with him more than likely gone to a team willing to pay more.

The only chance I see for Gio being signed this year is if Eifert refuses to do a long term deal, in which case the team will exercise his 5th team option.

(03-04-2016, 01:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Lol. He's making up a new ones. I don't remember him ever using these. I guess he really had to stretch to explain money away. These are so ridiculous it's almost trolling on Hobs' part. Btw, he seems to be prepping us for losing our own players in addition to the status quo when it comes to external FA's. And why even bring up a 600k contract for TJ Johnson? 

Lmao I thought the same thing when reading it! Used to be just injury pool, then draft picks got added in (at way more than they actually add to the cap) just when I got used to those two that add in this new made up number for dead money (what dead money it's the bengals who never cut anyone lol) along with PS players (really?! What other team makes excuses for not having enough money because those damn practice squad guys are so expensive? And seriously throwing out a salary that's slightly more than half a mil as an excuse why they won't sign most of our guys is a huge slap in the face...but I'm not even that mad because it's just so damn funny at this point. I keep expecting Ashton kutcher to jump out and tell me I've been punked

(03-04-2016, 10:30 AM)JungleRock85 Wrote: Another $3.5 million or so is earmarked for potential dead money; players cut, the off-season workout program, and practice squad salaries."

Full article is at: http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/View-from-both-sides/3223b9ba-3afd-45c8-9145-9c709fa7c0ca

"Potential" dead money?  

Dead money is money that has already been paid out in cash in the form of a bonus earlier during the life of the contract.  They don't have to set aside money for potential dead money.  The dead money is money they put aside for money they already spent. They don't need to put aside more money to cover the money they already put aside. Unbelievable.  Many times the salary savings is greater than the dead money giving them extra salary cap room.

Generic example to make the math easy: Player signs 4yr/$12M contract with $8M guaranteed signing bonus.  The $8M bonus is paid up front, but for cap purposes is evenly spread out over the life of the contract or $2M cap hit each year.  $12M contract - $8M bonus = $4M to be paid in salary over the life of the contract (again to make the math easy $4M/4yr = $1M salary/yr.  So player gets a $3M cap hit each year ($1M salary + $2M ammoritized bonus).  Last year of deal player has the same cap hit.  If you release him in the final year of his contract you have an additional $1M in salary cap space because you save on his salary.  You don't have to put aside money for the $2M in dead money for the signing bonus because you already paid the cash 4 years ago and the $2M is what you put aside 4 years ago.  You don't need to put aside more money for what you already put aside 4 years ago.  It is more complicated than that, but it is the basic idea.

(03-04-2016, 01:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Btw, he seems to be prepping us for losing our own players in addition to the status quo when it comes to external FA's.

If the Bengals lose Marvin Jones and Iloka to big contracts you can expect the Bengals to target players who have been released by other teams instead of UFA because they don't count against you in the compensatory draft pick formula.

You may have wrote that already and I missed it.

(03-04-2016, 02:26 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I beg to differ. Only Eifert will be considered a must sign by the Bengals. I'm willing to bet that Gio and Zeitler will be treated like Marvin Jones and George Iloka were last year and the team will offer them semi-competitive offers in 2017. They may sign those offers or they may test the free agent market like the players are this year.

The team could have sign Iloka to a long term deal last year and he reportedly wanted one. But the team opted to not offer one and here we are this year with him more than likely gone to a team willing to pay more.

The only chance I see for Gio being signed this year is if Eifert refuses to do a long term deal, in which case the team will exercise his 5th team option.

I thought when they drafted Fisher they intended for him to replace Zeitler.

(03-04-2016, 03:09 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I thought when they drafted Fisher they intended for him to replace Zeitler.

his skill set isn't maximized at G so that would be rather disappointing. 

(03-04-2016, 02:50 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: If the Bengals lose Marvin Jones and Iloka to big contracts you can expect the Bengals to target players who have been released by other teams instead of UFA because they don't count against you in the compensatory draft pick formula.

You may have wrote that already and I missed it.

Yep, that's how you play the compensatory pick game and the Bengals are getting good at it.

You can also count Adam Jones and Andre Smith in that mix as well. That would be 4 compensatory picks in 2017.

(03-04-2016, 03:10 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: his skill set isn't maximized at G so that would be rather disappointing. 

His skill set isn't maximized as a pass catching TE, either.  But, I understand your point.  It's just what I thought. Doesn't mean I'm correct.

(03-03-2016, 11:47 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Clinching a first round playoff loss in early March. Way to go guys!

Seriously, if you're not even going to get aggressive to keep the guys you draft and mold then you have no chance of winning it all.

Safe to say after reading that article Iloka and MJ are gone, we probably overpay Sanu by about twice his value, keep a couple lower guys like Vinny, Gilberry, Tate, Winston, and Sims then have maybe enough to add Adam or Reggie if they don't get fair offers from anyone but us.

IF you make it that far.....

(03-04-2016, 12:40 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Literally, Hobson could print the same article year after year, just change the salary cap number.  I can't tell you the last time I logged onto that site because it is basically not worth reading.  Saying you "don't have major holes" when you are possibly losing two starting cornerbacks, both safeties, and two of your top three wide receivers is absolutely laughable...

As others have said, my major complaint about this organization is that they never go "all in".  It's always about the future. Unfortunately, that future never seems to arrive...

I can tell you the last time I did, just look at the start date of this one.....

(03-03-2016, 10:09 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: our model has been doing pretty damn well of late.. so i dont think it is total BS as you want to make it out to be

for regular season maybe, but certainly not to get us over the hump to a SB!!
You are the epitome of "MEDIOCRITY"!!

$3.5 million for potential dead money? The team that prides itself on having very little dead money? The team that has around $200,000 in dead money right now? We suddenly need to add a $3.3 million cushion?

(03-04-2016, 04:11 PM)Wyche Wrote: I can tell you the last time I did, just look at the start date of this one.....

Same here man.

(03-04-2016, 02:38 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Lmao I thought the same thing when reading it! Used to be just injury pool, then draft picks got added in (at way more than they actually add to the cap) just when I got used to those two that add in this new made up number for dead money (what dead money it's the bengals who never cut anyone lol) along with PS players (really?! What other team makes excuses for not having enough money because those damn practice squad guys are so expensive? And seriously throwing out a salary that's slightly more than half a mil as an excuse why they won't sign most of our guys is a huge slap in the face...but I'm not even that mad because it's just so damn funny at this point. I keep expecting Ashton kutcher to jump out and tell me I've been punked

All you can do is laugh it off at this point. The funniest part is that there's a lot of folks who actually believe this stuff. Mainly because the Bengals are winning, so people start believing that avoiding FA's and being frugal are keys to success. The truth is that the Bengals have always been like that, even during the 90's. They just got better at drafting.