(06-19-2015, 03:08 PM)Wyche Wrote: I dunno......he had a pretty shitty year.....he was cut after one year.....I think he's good opposite Dunlap and in this rotation, but I'm not sold he's a top FA after last season's performance.

So you are of the belief that a single season is a better indicator of performance than multiple seasons are?

(06-19-2015, 08:27 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: J24 the talent, for the most part hasn't been our problem.

You see the talent of the players can override poor/average coaching in the early and middle parts of the season. But as the weather grows cold and the stakes get higher near the end and in the post season that's where coaching has to show up ! That's where the game plan and knowing how to counteract/ out coach the opposition comes into the forefront.

If it was one, hell even two losses you could say it's just dumb luck or whatever. We're 0-6 and it's just like watching the same game over and over again ! 13 second half points J, think about that. Thirteen in 6 second halves ! Like Wyche says we've either drafted the 50 biggest choke artists players over the last decade or we have a coaching problem. It's either one or the other isn't it ? You choose

We generally do better in the 2nd half of the season then the start of the season (other than the playoffs obviously). We are 17-7 in the 2nd half of the season the last 3 years. In the playoffs we have been missing the talent IMO. The years we had the talent a lot of key players were hurt. In 2013 our OL was in shambles, and on defense Atkins, Newman, Hall, Mays, and Lamur were all hurt. The 2014 season was even worse. In 2011, and 2012 we didn't have the talent imo.

(06-19-2015, 08:27 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: J24 the talent, for the most part hasn't been our problem.

You see the talent of the players can override poor/average coaching in the early and middle parts of the season. But as the weather grows cold and the stakes get higher near the end and in the post season that's where coaching has to show up ! That's where the game plan and knowing how to counteract/ out coach the opposition comes into the forefront.

If it was one, hell even two losses you could say it's just dumb luck or whatever. We're 0-6 and it's just like watching the same game over and over again ! 13 second half points J, think about that. Thirteen in 6 second halves ! Like Wyche says we've either drafted the 50 biggest choke artists players over the last decade or we have a coaching problem. It's either one or the other isn't it ? You choose

Ummm.....I'll go with the coaching.

(06-19-2015, 01:10 AM)J24 Wrote: Honestly I think the whole Marvin doesn't have enough fire in his belly is severely overrated. Look at Bill Walsh he seamed laid back it didn't bother him in the playoffs, Bill Belicheck sounds like a zombie half of the time  he also has 4 rings as a head  coach, and Mike Tomlin is a pretty chilled guy but he has two rings. Hell look at Jim Mora he is probably he is one of the more intense guys in NFL history and he was 0-6 in the playoffs as well.

I knew someone would bring up Belichick. Ol' cheats-a-lot is a master strategist. So was Bill Walsh. Tomlin would be on Marv's level if not for the elite QB and (til recently) elite defense that carried that team to Super Bowls. Point is, these guys could get away without passionate leadership. Until Marv becomes a "genius" like Belichick or Walsh, he needs more leadership and fire. Either that or he needs to stumble upon an elite QB. Good luck on that.

(06-19-2015, 08:53 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Completely agree.  And I, too, thought Burfict was going to be the team's Ray Lewis (without the murders) and force the team to get better and have the mental toughness so they don't fall in to that "here we go again" mentality. 

Although I am not certain the extent of his playing time will be this year, but I think the signing of a veteran like Hawk can only help in this aspect.  Guys like Hill also have a toughness that can spread throughout the team.  When I look at how he pounded the Browns in the second meeting after the absolute drubbing they took on the Thursday Night Primetime game, I think he is one that walks the walk. 

I really think one wildcard here is Dennard.  He is a guy that his coaches raved about his leadership at MSU.  If he can earn a starting role, I think he could start to be a more vocal leader on the defense. 

These guys all have that potential. I'd also throw Pacman and maybe Dawson in there. Still, I wish the faces of the franchise were more natural as leaders (Marv, Dalton, AJ, etc). I would say Hue shows that fire, but I didn't like how he tee'd off on Hill last year. I liked when Hill stood up for his team after the first Browns game. 

(06-19-2015, 09:42 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: We generally do better in the 2nd half of the season then the start of the season (other than the playoffs obviously). We are 17-7 in the 2nd half of the season the last 3 years. In the playoffs we have been missing the talent IMO. The years we had the talent a lot of key players were hurt. In 2013 our OL was in shambles, and on defense Atkins, Newman, Hall, Mays, and Lamur were all hurt. The 2014 season was even worse. In 2011, and 2012 we didn't have the talent imo.

I'm not talking about the 2nd half of the season, any season Shoe. I'm talking about winning when it counts ! I'm talking about beating Pittsburgh when we need to ! I'm talking about winning in the spotlight (primtime), I'm talking about getting homefield advantage when one more win would get it done. When it counts we fold !

Look up Marvin's record in primetime, look up his record against teams with winning records, don't forget to discount the games in which a team that was already a lock tanked it late in the season. Let's look up the playoffs.

When it's all on the line we fold up like a pup tent again and again !

(06-19-2015, 08:27 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: J24 the talent, for the most part hasn't been our problem.

You see the talent of the players can override poor/average coaching in the early and middle parts of the season. But as the weather grows cold and the stakes get higher near the end and in the post season that's where coaching has to show up ! That's where the game plan and knowing how to counteract/ out coach the opposition comes into the forefront.

If it was one, hell even two losses you could say it's just dumb luck or whatever. We're 0-6 and it's just like watching the same game over and over again ! 13 second half points J, think about that. Thirteen in 6 second halves ! Like Wyche says we've either drafted the 50 biggest choke artists players over the last decade or we have a coaching problem. It's either one or the other isn't it ? You choose

I'll take a long shot and say we have a coaching problem.  We've had the talent, especially lately, and still, deer in the headlights syndrome.  Who's fault is that?

(06-19-2015, 09:37 PM)OSUfan Wrote: So you are of the belief that a single season is a better indicator of performance than multiple seasons are?

When people were upset the team let him go, he would be "easily replaced", he wasn't "worth the money"......now that he's back, he's a "top DE free agent", go figure......but I digress......

No, I look at it as a whole, in this rotation of players here, he was a good player, without them, he wasn't.  I hope he returns to 2013 form, and starting to think he wasn't as good as I originally thought when I was clamoring to keephim back then.

(06-19-2015, 05:13 PM)Wyche Wrote: Either we don't have the talent to win in the postseason, or we are being outcoached.....it really doesn't get much simpler than that.  Judging by how flat and unprepared this team consistently looks in the postseason and primetime games, my opinion is it's the latter.

 Jim Mora was the best thing to EVER happen to the Saints ......until they moved on and won a Super Bowl that is......

Yeah they won a championship 14 years after he left it wasn't a quick turnaround in New Orleans. Play here an play there this team has a different record in the playoffs. If Crocker doesn't drop a pick 6 in 11 its a tied game going into the 4th instead of going down by 14, if Andy hits AJ for a touchdown in 12 we win  the game by 1, if Gio doesn't fumble the ball at the 1 yard line in 13 you we lead @ halftime by 7 instead of 4, and if AJ doesn't drop a pass at the chargers 10 then we probably score a touchdown on that drive as well. The players were in position to make plays and they didn't if they did we could possibly be talking about a different outcome in those games.
In 05 palmer tore his ACL on the second play , in 09 our team was depleted, and this past season our entire WR core was out besides  Sanu. If your going to blame those 3 losses on Marvin then your full of crap because nobody in there right mind thought we had a chance in those games.

Let's be honest, we are all fed up by the failure to get over the playoff win hump.

Only winning playoff games will get us respect by other teams or other fans or the media.

I am glad AD and AJ has played 4 playoff games in 4 years as contrary to what some believe, it is hard to make the playoffs 4 years in a row. I am a die hard fan, but it takes it toll losing in the playoffs.

But, I remain optimistic as I also believe our lone embarrassing playoff loss was in 2013 at home to the Chargers. As I look back on 2014, most teams with our injury situation to key players would have not sniffed the playoffs.

It is interesting reading the different thoughts on our talent. I see most experts saying we are not a top 10 talented NFL team so maybe we are over evaluating our talent (not just QB as our defense was ranked 22nd in 2014).

(06-19-2015, 11:59 PM)J24 Wrote: Yeah they won a championship 14 years after he left it wasn't a quick turnaround in New Orleans. Play here an play there this team has a different record in the playoffs. If Crocker doesn't drop a pick 6 in 11 its a tied game going into the 4th instead of going down by 14, if Andy hits AJ for a touchdown in 12 we win  the game by 1, if Gio doesn't fumble the ball at the 1 yard line in 13 you we lead @ halftime by 7 instead of 4, and if AJ doesn't drop a pass at the chargers 10 then we probably score a touchdown on that drive as well. The players were in position to make plays and they didn't if they did we could possibly be talking about a different outcome in those games.
In 05 palmer tore his ACL on the second play , in 09 our team was depleted, and this past season our entire WR core was out besides  Sanu. If your going to blame those 3 losses on Marvin then your full of crap because nobody in there right mind thought we had a chance in those games.

If ifs were candy and nuts......speaking of ifs....if they hadn't ignored AJ Green for an entire half......if they hadn't left Maualuga exposed on Owen Daniel.....if they hadn't abandoned BJGE and his 5.3 ypc......if, if, if......


The saints won their first playoff game in 2000.....do you remember Mora's last season in NO?  Hint, it wasn't 1988.

Didn't take Indy long to win it all after they parted ways either.....

(06-20-2015, 12:09 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Let's be honest, we are all fed up by the failure to get over the playoff win hump.

Only winning playoff games will get us respect by other teams or other fans or the media.

I am glad AD and AJ has played 4 playoff games in 4 years as contrary to what some believe, it is hard to make the playoffs 4 years in a row. I am a die hard fan, but it takes it toll losing in the playoffs.

But, I remain optimistic as I also believe our lone embarrassing playoff loss was in 2013 at home to the Chargers. As I look back on 2014, most teams with our injury situation to key players would have not sniffed the playoffs.

It is interesting reading the different thoughts on our talent. I see most experts saying we are not a top 10 talented NFL team so maybe we are over evaluating our talent (not just QB as our defense was ranked 22nd in 2014).

Couldn't resist could ya?  


Glad you made it this way......welcome aboard.

(06-19-2015, 10:12 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I knew someone would bring up Belichick. Ol' cheats-a-lot is a master strategist. So was Bill Walsh. Tomlin would be on Marv's level if not for the elite QB and (til recently) elite defense that carried that team to Super Bowls. Point is, these guys could get away without passionate leadership. Until Marv becomes a "genius" like Belichick or Walsh, he needs more leadership and fire. Either that or he needs to stumble upon an elite QB. Good luck on that.


These guys all have that potential. I'd also throw Pacman and maybe Dawson in there. Still, I wish the faces of the franchise were more natural as leaders (Marv, Dalton, AJ, etc). I would say Hue shows that fire, but I didn't like how he tee'd off on Hill last year. I liked when Hill stood up for his team after the first Browns game. 

1st off Ben wasn't an elite QB in 08 dude had only thrown 17 TDs to 15 interceptions if you thinks  that's elite then we need to have a serious talk. Secondly I   would rather have a coach that can think rather than one that just yells. I'll give you another guy who wasn't a fiery guy Chuck Noll he won 4 championships with the Steelers or how about Tony Dungy he has a ring. Oh before your say well he had Peyton that's why he won I would like to point out to you that Peyton threw 3 TDs to 7 ints in that postseason run. My point being Marvin personality has very little to do with our playoff woes instead it has to do with the fact that when plays needed to be made they weren't.

(06-20-2015, 12:14 AM)Wyche Wrote: Couldn't resist could ya?  


Glad you made it this way......welcome aboard.

Don't tell anyone, I missed a few of you guys.

(06-20-2015, 12:16 AM)J24 Wrote: 1st off Ben wasn't an elite QB in 08 dude had only thrown 17 TDs to 15 interceptions if you thinks  that's elite then we need to have a serious talk. Secondly I   would rather have a coach that can think rather than one that just yells. I'll give you another guy who wasn't a fiery guy Chuck Noll he won 4 championships with the Steelers or how about Tony Dungy he has a ring. Oh before your say well he had Peyton that's why he won I would like to point out to you that Peyton threw 3 TDs to 7 ints in that postseason run. My point being Marvin personality has very little to do with our playoff woes instead it has to do with the fact that when plays needed to be made they weren't.

Ultimately, who's responsible for ensuring the players are put into position to make said plays, or that the proper personnel is being utilized to its full potential?  

Just curious, are you saying we have the misfortune of continuously drafting players who choke?  We just have bad luck?

(06-19-2015, 11:02 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote:  I'm talking about beating Pittsburgh when we need to ! 

You mean like in 2012 when we were 8-6 and faced a must win game on the road against the Steelers?

(06-19-2015, 11:02 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote:  I'm talking about winning in the spotlight (primtime), 

You mean like in week 15 last year against the 11-3 Broncos?  Or Monday night against the Steelers the year before that (when it counted to win against the Steelers).

bengalfan74
I'm talking about getting homefield advantage when one more win would get it done.

You mean like beating the Ravens in the last game of the '13 season


bengalfan74
look up his record against teams with winning records, 

Over the last two seasons Marvin is 8-6 versus winning teams including victories over the Patriots, Broncos, Colts, Packers, and Ravens.

(06-20-2015, 12:09 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Let's be honest, we are all fed up by the failure to get over the playoff win hump.

Only winning playoff games will get us respect by other teams or other fans or the media.

I am glad AD and AJ has played 4 playoff games in 4 years as contrary to what some believe, it is hard to make the playoffs 4 years in a row. I am a die hard fan, but it takes it toll losing in the playoffs.

But, I remain optimistic as I also believe our lone embarrassing playoff loss was in 2013 at home to the Chargers. As I look back on 2014, most teams with our injury situation to key players would have not sniffed the playoffs.

It is interesting reading the different thoughts on our talent. I see most experts saying we are not a top 10 talented NFL team so maybe we are over evaluating our talent (not just QB as our defense was ranked 22nd in 2014).

Yeah, last year gets a pass.....is this the year? We'll see soon enough.  If not, I expect swift changes if the FO is interested in any credibility whatsoever.

(06-20-2015, 12:13 AM)Wyche Wrote: If ifs were candy and nuts......


The saints won their first playoff game in 2000.....do you remember Mora's last season in NO?  Hint, it wasn't 1988.

Didn't take Indy long to win it all after they parted ways either.....

Yeah 4 years after he left what an immediate turn around!
Let me ask you a couple of questions about the 88 team if I may . IF Billups intercepts that pass in 88 what would that team be remembered as? He'll what would Wyche be remembered as if Krumie didn't get hurt or Stanley Wilson didn't like Crack? Is it fair to say we would have won a super bowl title in 88 if those things were to have happened right? So why are those examples ok to use but not the example I just made? The dirty little secret about professional sports is this coaching is vastly overrated because it is a players game. If you want to win games in any pro league your players better make plays unfortunately our guys haven't. You can blame Marvin all you want but the fact remains he didn't drop a pick six, he didn't fumble  the ball at the one yard line, he didn't drop a ball inside the 10 yard line, and he didn't  overthrow a guy for an easy touchdown.

(06-20-2015, 12:38 AM)J24 Wrote: Yeah 4 years after he left what an immediate turn around!
Let me ask you a couple of questions about the 88 team if I may . IF Billups intercepts that pass in 88 what would that team be remembered as? He'll what would Wyche be remembered as if Krumie didn't get hurt or Stanley Wilson didn't like Crack? Is it fair to say we would have won a super bowl title in 88 if those things were to have happened right? So why are those examples ok to use but not the example I just made? The dirty little secret about professional sports is this coaching is vastly overrated because it is a players game. If you want to win games in any pro league your players better make plays unfortunately our guys haven't. You can blame Marvin all you want but the fact remains he didn't drop a pick six, he didn't fumble  the ball at the one yard line, he didn't drop a ball inside the 10 yard line, and he didn't  overthrow a guy for an easy touchdown.

If coaching is overrated and it's a "player's game", then why do you keep calling Marvin a good coach for all of these accomplishments?

Marvin is good because of wins and playoff appearances.

Marvin isn't bad because of losses and playoff blunders.

Try not talking out of both sides of your mouth sometimes, it won't hurt ya buddy. I've never seen a guy post so much contradicting bullshit in my life until I started actually reading your posts.

News flash, we haven't won a playoff game in a quarter of a century. Either the talent isn't there or the coaching isn't there. You seem to always think we're super talented and have a good coach. How is it possible that we can never be better than the 12th best team in the league if we're always stacked with talent and great coaching? I'm so tired of dorky homers thinking we've just been full of bad luck for 25 years.

(06-19-2015, 01:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Another common strawman.

Claiming we did nothing to improve when we signed one of the top free agent DEs.

Oh, ya.  I forgot.  That will surely make the difference.  Tampa must have a different approach.  Perhaps they're trying to get worse by letting him go?  They should've consulted Fred (who has personally given him a top ranking!) before they released him to get a better analysis of the situation.  It's not like they watched him play or practice last year.