(03-06-2016, 10:01 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You guys really think Dhani was "very good"? Decent maybe. Very good would be a stretch.

And what about the 31 other players I mentioned?

I'm not defending the Bengals/arguing your point, just saying Dhani was a great pick up and clearly meant more to this team than many fans give him credit for.

(03-06-2016, 10:09 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: I'm not defending the Bengals/arguing your point, just saying Dhani was a great pick up and clearly meant more to this team than many fans give him credit for.

I respect that. He stabilized the position when we were really hurting. I think that causes some to think he was better than he really was though.

Dhani was pondering retirement due to lack of interest when the Bengals came calling. Smart and classy? Sure. "Very good" NFL MLB? I'd say no.

(03-06-2016, 10:19 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I respect that. He stabilized the position when we were really hurting. I think that causes some to think he was better than he really was though.

Dhani was pondering retirement due to lack of interest when the Bengals came calling. Smart and classy? Sure. "Very good" NFL MLB? I'd say no.

Teams not being interested in a player does not mean he can't be very good. How many players get cut from a team and go on to have great careers, how many players go undrafted (passed on by every team multiple times) but go on to great careers. Teams don't know it all, and at one point having a lack of suitors doesn't mean anything the player does afterward counts less. 

Dhani played here 4 years, didn't miss a game and averaged 110 tackles per year. All while making sure our defense knew their assignments and were on the same page, which is a vastly underrated skill. He made the entire defense better, and everyone was all for moving on from him because Maualuga was gonna be better and we all know how that turned out.

That said we're arguing about the difference between a player being "decent" and "very good" for a guy who retired 5 years ago

(03-06-2016, 12:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have got to be kidding.  Just look at how we rebuilt our defense through free agents in 2011...Thomas Howard, Manny Lawson, and Nate Clements.  The year before we had obtained Reggie Nelson in a trade when he was considered a bust in Jacksonville, and signed Adam Jones as a free agent.

These players were a big part of the reason our defense went from 24th in points allowed in 2010 to 9th in 2011.

The next year we added Wallace Gilberry and Terrance Newman in free agency.

The Bengals don't spend a ton of money, but they have had plenty of success in signing free agents.  especially on the defensive side of the ball.

The Bengals are good at finding guys who have lost their way or were heading over the hill and getting them in on the cheap. I believe all the guys you mentioned would fit in that category. Gilberry was sign a few weeks into the season after he was on the unemployment line.

But you can see from the list below, there were many, many more who didn't contribute much and some who contributed nothing at all. I do agree that Dhani Jones did at least bring something the team needed. Taylor Mays was a trade, if I remember correctly.

For every Adam Jones we sign we seem to get a couple of Greg Littles as well.

(03-06-2016, 01:01 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Antonio Bryant
Lavernues Coles
Jason Allen
Sam Adams
Gibril Wilson
Antwan Odom
James Harrison
AJ Hawk
Travelle Wharton
Law Firm
Denarius Moore
Greg Little
Taylor Mays
Jamaal Anderson
Edgerton Hartwell
Antonio Chatman
Ben Utecht
Nate Lawrie
Jamar Fletcher
Darryl Blackstock
Ifeanyi Ohalete
Anthony Mitchell
Duane Clemons
Bryan Robinson
Nate Webster
Mike Myers
Tank Johnson
Roy Williams

...and that's not even a complete list from Marvin's tenure alone.

I'll add that even though guys like Dhani, Nugent, Tate, and Lawson were able to get on the field, were they really any good? 

(03-06-2016, 01:01 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Antonio Bryant
Lavernues Coles
Jason Allen
Sam Adams
Gibril Wilson
Antwan Odom
James Harrison
AJ Hawk
Travelle Wharton
Law Firm
Denarius Moore
Greg Little
Taylor Mays
Jamaal Anderson
Edgerton Hartwell
Antonio Chatman
Ben Utecht
Nate Lawrie
Jamar Fletcher
Darryl Blackstock
Ifeanyi Ohalete
Anthony Mitchell
Duane Clemons
Bryan Robinson
Nate Webster
Mike Myers
Tank Johnson
Roy Williams

...and that's not even a complete list from Marvin's tenure alone.

I'll add that even though guys like Dhani, Nugent, Tate, and Lawson were able to get on the field, were they really any good? 

I've always thought Marvin's 1st free agent class was by far his best (Kelly, Hardy, James, Clemons, Thornton). But, that free agent class was required out of necessity. The Bengals desperately needed new blood to begin a new era. Since then, it's been a very mixed bag. Green-Ellis was a decent player, but pretty average. Other guys like Dhani, Benson and Crocker (all initially added during the season), became productive, steady players for the majority of their time here. Others like Adams, Coles, Bryant and Utecht turned out to be terrible signings for different reasons. The signings of Allen, Anderson and Wharton in the same offseason ended up to be a complete disaster (including Wharton playing well for Carolina after we cut him).

For whatever reason, many of the Bengals most 'productive' signings have come from other teams cast offs, reclamation projects, low risk or inexpensive deals, etc (like Crocker, Benson, Pacman, Newman and Gilberry). I'm starting to think that they are much more competent with those types of moves than they are with anything requiring a real financial risk/investment in free agency. 

I get as frustrated as anyone at their free agent approach at times, but we have to be realistic in terms of what they actually do well. While I would love to land a big name/impact type player...I'm not sure I trust this front office to make that decision. I'm much more confident in their ability to find another team's reject, a former high round bust, or a vet minimum sort of guy...and turn them into productive players. 

I guess I'm criticizing and praising the front office at the same time, but it's just how I see things right now when it comes to their abilities in the (outside) free agent market. 

(03-06-2016, 10:40 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Teams not being interested in a player does not mean he can't be very good. How many players get cut from a team and go on to have great careers, how many players go undrafted (passed on by every team multiple times) but go on to great careers. Teams don't know it all, and at one point having a lack of suitors doesn't mean anything the player does afterward counts less. 

Dhani played here 4 years, didn't miss a game and averaged 110 tackles per year. All while making sure our defense knew their assignments and were on the same page, which is a vastly underrated skill. He made the entire defense better, and everyone was all for moving on from him because Maualuga was gonna be better and we all know how that turned out.

That said we're arguing about the difference between a player being "decent" and "very good" for a guy who retired 5 years ago

It's the offseason. 

Unless I'm misrembering (is that a word?) I think we signed Dhani Jones off the street during the season. We had a rash of injuries and plucked him off his couch in like week 2 or something.

So it's not as if we combed through the entire free agent market and identified him as the perfect fit. It more, "Holy shit, we don't have any linebackers. Hey, let's call this guy, I've actually heard of him."

Regardless, Dhani Jones was average at best. If pointing to an old vet, signed off his couch for the the vet minimum, like Dhani freaking Jones, comes up in a free agency conversation then it only further illustrates just how bad we are at bringing in outside help. Dhani Jones shouldn't be on your "great signing" list. Nor should Thomas Howard or Nate Clements or Manny Lawson. None of them were that good.

March is awesome - thanks to college basketball

March sucks - seeing the same 10 posters go on their annual rants about the FO, how the salary cap and system works (they're always wrong) and why the Bengals are a failure of a franchise.

The Bengals are almost too cautious with the salary cap. Granted they don't get themselves in trouble and have to release a bunch of guys, but they also don't get a big name FA that could put them over the top. The Bengals are loyal to a contract to a fault... Players and agents just want the big dollar amount to scroll across the bottom of the screen even if they won't see all of it. It would be nice to see a big signing once in a while.

(03-07-2016, 02:43 PM)Paul from Dayton Wrote: The Bengals are almost too cautious with the salary cap. Granted they don't get themselves in trouble and have to release a bunch of guys, but they also don't get a big name FA that could put them over the top. The Bengals are loyal to a contract to a fault...  Players and agents just want the big dollar amount to scroll across the bottom of the screen even if they won't see all of it.  It would be nice to see a big signing once in a while.

The thing is, they don't need a big name. If they lose Jones or Iloka, they need to add someone at another position of need to lessen the loss. 
They don't need Mario Williams. But an Antwan Odom level signing (He was playing well pre-injury) would go a long way in helping this team take the next step with such an already established team. 

(03-06-2016, 11:00 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I've always thought Marvin's 1st free agent class was by far his best (Kelly, Hardy, James, Clemons, Thornton). But, that free agent class was required out of necessity. The Bengals desperately needed new blood to begin a new era. Since then, it's been a very mixed bag. Green-Ellis was a decent player, but pretty average. Other guys like Dhani, Benson and Crocker (all initially added during the season), became productive, steady players for the majority of their time here. Others like Adams, Coles, Bryant and Utecht turned out to be terrible signings for different reasons. The signings of Allen, Anderson and Wharton in the same offseason ended up to be a complete disaster (including Wharton playing well for Carolina after we cut him).

For whatever reason, many of the Bengals most 'productive' signings have come from other teams cast offs, reclamation projects, low risk or inexpensive deals, etc (like Crocker, Benson, Pacman, Newman and Gilberry). I'm starting to think that they are much more competent with those types of moves than they are with anything requiring a real financial risk/investment in free agency. 

I get as frustrated as anyone at their free agent approach at times, but we have to be realistic in terms of what they actually do well. While I would love to land a big name/impact type player...I'm not sure I trust this front office to make that decision. I'm much more confident in their ability to find another team's reject, a former high round bust, or a vet minimum sort of guy...and turn them into productive players. 

I guess I'm criticizing and praising the front office at the same time, but it's just how I see things right now when it comes to their abilities in the (outside) free agent market. 

How could this  be.......what with our sure fire, first ballot, HOF o line coach here?  How did Carolina manage to outcoach the legend?

(03-07-2016, 02:59 PM)Wyche Wrote: How could this  be.......what with our sure fire, first ballot, HOF o line coach here?  How did Carolina manage to outcoach the legend?

You're right a dude who couldn't stay healthy here....went on to play one more year for Carolina. 
Meanwhile, we had a young up and comer play LG instead and who is now one of the brightest young guards in the NFL.

This is a case of the Bengals doing something they never do and should honestly do more of and you turn into a dig on PA? 
Quality effort this time. 

(03-07-2016, 03:07 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: You're right a dude who couldn't stay healthy here....went on to play one more year for Carolina. 
Meanwhile, we had a young up and comer play LG instead and who is now one of the brightest young guards in the NFL.

This is a case of the Bengals doing something they never do and should honestly do more of and you turn into a dig on PA? 
Quality effort this time. 

(03-07-2016, 03:26 PM)Wyche Wrote:

Nice meme. Care to discuss substance on the issue or.....

(03-07-2016, 03:46 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Nice meme. Care to discuss substance on the issue or.....

:hooked:


Lighten up son, it was a mood lightener..... (hence the )





(but it was sweet how swiftly you acted in defense of your hero....lol, you beat fred!)

Bengals keep Wharton, play him over Boling - OMG Bengals are letting a 30+ year old guard start over young talent. They never let young guys play.

Bengals let Wharton go, play Boling who has been the superior player since, LOL Wharton had one decent year before retiring after he left! We're idiots!

(03-07-2016, 03:49 PM)Wyche Wrote: :hooked:


Lighten up son, it was a mood lightener.....




(but it was sweet how swiftly you acted in defense of your hero....lol, you beat fred!)

There's plenty to criticize Paul on, no need to make stuff up. 

(03-07-2016, 03:50 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Bengals keep Wharton, play him over Boling - OMG Bengals are letting a 30+ year old guard start over young talent. They never let young guys play.

Bengals let Wharton go, play Boling who has been the superior player since, LOL Wharton had one decent year before retiring after he left! We're idiots!

Wharton should have never been brought in to begin with, imo, I even criticized the move on the old board.  I can't remember who wanted him, doubt it was PA, that wreaked of a typical, cheap ass MB move.

(03-07-2016, 03:53 PM)Wyche Wrote: Wharton should have never been brought in to begin with, imo, I even criticized the move on the old board.  I can't remember who wanted him, doubt it was PA, that wreaked of a typical, cheap ass MB move.

I wanted him as a backup to LG and RG since we had all of 3 starts between our starting guards going into 2012. 

(03-07-2016, 03:55 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I wanted him as a backup to LG and RG since we had all of 3 starts between our starting guards going into 2012. 

Wasn't that the year Grubbs and Nicks were on the market?