(03-04-2016, 06:28 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: All you can do is laugh it off at this point. The funniest part is that there's a lot of folks who actually believe this stuff. Mainly because the Bengals are winning, so people start believing that avoiding FA's and being frugal are keys to success. The truth is that the Bengals have always been like that, even during the 90's. They just got better at drafting.

It's just sad though, we are so close. This is our window to go far in the playoffs, but nah as long as we go 8-8 and sell enough tickets we are okay in the eyes of Mike Brown.

This shit just pisses me off as a Bengals fan. At least make a damn attempt to improve our team front office! 

(03-05-2016, 01:16 AM)magikod Wrote:  as long as we go 8-8 and sell enough tickets we are okay in the eyes of Mike Brown.

This is a complete lie.

(03-04-2016, 01:20 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Every year it basically comes down to "who are you going to believe... your own eyes, those independent sources, or your trusty front office staff"?  It is insulting because they act like no one else knows how to do math.  And that is what it is... it's not rocket science, it is math.

Then why not just look at how much the Bengals are actually playing their players>

The Bengals are no where hear the bottom of the league in what they actually pay players.  Last year they were 12th, and since the 4 year window started in 2013 the Bengals are no where near the bott0m.

But unforunatelty the TRUTH does not fit the narrative for all the crybabies around here who don't want to do anything but ***** and moan.

Orlando Bengal is correct.  It is simple math.  Bengals are spending more money on player salary than most other teams in the league.  To bad the haters refuse to acknowledge this.

(03-04-2016, 01:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote:   

Lastly, I agree that Mrs Blackburn is good at staying well under the cap. That's part of the problem. The Bengals have publicly admitted to mimicking the Steelers FO. When it comes to drafting well and avoiding FA's like the plague, that's true. That said, the Steelers often hug the cap and they restructure contracts more often than most in order to stay close to the cap ceiling.

The restructuring contracts thing always has be confused re: the Bengals. Why do other teams restructure contracts and why don't we ever seem to do it?

(03-04-2016, 01:32 PM)Gamma Ray Tan Wrote: Because no one can ever Draft Well AND Pick up a few difference making free agents BOTH! That never happens!!! (Cough....Denver Broncos.....Cough.....Super Bowl) The joke is on you Denver! Now you have to lug that pesky Lombardi Trophy around! That's what you get for Drafting well and Signing some top free agents to upgrade your team! SUCKERS!

......Come on, you have to be smarter than that. 

You have one example in the past 20 years where that truly worked and that team is now in cap purgatory.  Hardly anyone gave them a chance?  Say they had lost to New England, and been out in round 2, everyone would have said "what a waste of money they gave all those free agents to try and win while their window was open".

Denver had a MUCH older team, and a QB clearly on his last legs.  That is not the Bengals, and the Bengals are in place to contend for years to come.  

If the Bengals do as I think they will, and sign a couple veterans that are not FAs (i.e- they have been released) like a LB and a WR, or maybe a safety, they will get a tremendous windfall of compensatory draft picks for the 2017 draft.  Those will be able to be traded at that time, and only increases their value.  

No one will want to admit to this because it just hurts too damn much, but if Dalton doesn't injure his thumb, I don't think it is Denver that hoists that trophy.  

(03-04-2016, 06:28 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: All you can do is laugh it off at this point. The funniest part is that there's a lot of folks who actually believe this stuff. Mainly because the Bengals are winning, so people start believing that avoiding FA's and being frugal are keys to success. The truth is that the Bengals have always been like that, even during the 90's. They just got better at drafting.

Agreed. And the Bengals have never been all that good at judging free agent talent either. They do sometimes find someone decent, but since they don't seem to scout other team's players very well, they tend to shy away from those players for the most part. Too many mistakes in that department and they always blame the player, not their own scouting of that player.

Denver, on the other hand, knows exactly how to scout free agent talent.

(03-05-2016, 05:33 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: You have one example in the past 20 years where that truly worked and that team is now in cap purgatory.  Hardly anyone gave them a chance?  Say they had lost to New England, and been out in round 2, everyone would have said "what a waste of money they gave all those free agents to try and win while their window was open".

Denver had a MUCH older team, and a QB clearly on his last legs.  That is not the Bengals, and the Bengals are in place to contend for years to come.  

If the Bengals do as I think they will, and sign a couple veterans that are not FAs (i.e- they have been released) like a LB and a WR, or maybe a safety, they will get a tremendous windfall of compensatory draft picks for the 2017 draft.  Those will be able to be traded at that time, and only increases their value.  

No one will want to admit to this because it just hurts too damn much, but if Dalton doesn't injure his thumb, I don't think it is Denver that hoists that trophy.  

The problem is that many teams that hoist the trophy employ just that strategy.  

2015:  Broncos
2014:  Pats (Revis, Browner, LaFell, Blount)
2013:  Seahawks (Mike Bennett, Cliff Avril, Percy Harvin)


You can find key players on most Super Bowl winning teams teams that were brought in that season or in the preceding season that helped the team win it all.  The point has never been to win the FA period and sign a bunch of  Suhs or Haynesworths.  Rather, add talent in a few deficient areas and try to actually win a Super Bowl.

(03-05-2016, 11:04 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This is a complete lie.

Well we haven't been 8-8 for awhile, but I don't think that's a complete lie. I've seen Mike Brown defend a losing record over an 8 year span. He used terms like "we've been competitive". Any other owner would've said something along the lines of "this is unacceptable". Instead, Mike Brown was very defensive.

I'd have to do some digging but I may be able to find the article. It was on bengals.com I believe, sometime after the 2010 season.

(03-05-2016, 10:06 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Agreed. And the Bengals have never been all that good at judging free agent talent either. They do sometimes find someone decent, but since they don't seem to scout other team's players very well, they tend to shy away from those players for the most part. Too many mistakes in that department and they always blame the player, not their own scouting of that player.

Denver, on the other hand, knows exactly how to scout free agent talent.

Agree 100%. It really has seemed like the Bengals - at least in part - avoid FA because of their own mistakes. If you really think about it, guys like Antonio Bryant, Antwan Odom and Jason Allen didn't exactly have great track records even before we signed them. Bryant was injured and inconsistent. Odom had 1 good season playing next to Haynesworth. Allen was considered a bust. Coles turned 32 the year we signed him.

There are free agents with really good track records, but we never have gone after those types. I wanted to trade for Boldin in 2010 because he had easily the best track record of all the good WR's who were available. Instead, we signed Bryant and Boldin was then traded to Baltimore. Obviously we know how that worked out.

(03-05-2016, 05:33 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: You have one example in the past 20 years where that truly worked and that team is now in cap purgatory.  Hardly anyone gave them a chance?  Say they had lost to New England, and been out in round 2, everyone would have said "what a waste of money they gave all those free agents to try and win while their window was open".

Denver had a MUCH older team, and a QB clearly on his last legs.  That is not the Bengals, and the Bengals are in place to contend for years to come.  

If the Bengals do as I think they will, and sign a couple veterans that are not FAs (i.e- they have been released) like a LB and a WR, or maybe a safety, they will get a tremendous windfall of compensatory draft picks for the 2017 draft.  Those will be able to be traded at that time, and only increases their value.  

No one will want to admit to this because it just hurts too damn much, but if Dalton doesn't injure his thumb, I don't think it is Denver that hoists that trophy.  

I also believe the Bengals are playing free agency for compensatory picks. That's the only thing that makes sense when looking at what they are doing, or not doing as the case is.

However, the highest such pick comes between the 3rd and 4th rounds and your chances of an instant starter at one of those picks isn't very high. The two such picks we had in the 2015 draft contributed very, very little. That first year is likely minimal impact from such players.

The fact that compensatory picks will be tradable in next year's draft is a bonus though.

(03-05-2016, 10:06 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Agreed. And the Bengals have never been all that good at judging free agent talent either.

You have got to be kidding.  Just look at how we rebuilt our defense through free agents in 2011...Thomas Howard, Manny Lawson, and Nate Clements.  The year before we had obtained Reggie Nelson in a trade when he was considered a bust in Jacksonville, and signed Adam Jones as a free agent.

These players were a big part of the reason our defense went from 24th in points allowed in 2010 to 9th in 2011.

The next year we added Wallace Gilberry and Terrance Newman in free agency.

The Bengals don't spend a ton of money, but they have had plenty of success in signing free agents.  especially on the defensive side of the ball.

(03-06-2016, 12:03 AM)BengalChris Wrote: I also believe the Bengals are playing free agency for compensatory picks. That's the only thing that makes sense when looking at what they are doing, or not doing as the case is.

Yeah, just look at all the free agents that the other NFL teams have been signing these last few days.


Uh,.  .  .  never mind.

(03-06-2016, 12:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have got to be kidding.  Just look at how we rebuilt our defense through free agents in 2011...Thomas Howard, Manny Lawson, and Nate Clements.  The year before we had obtained Reggie Nelson in a trade when he was considered a bust in Jacksonville, and signed Adam Jones as a free agent.

These players were a big part of the reason our defense went from 24th in points allowed in 2010 to 9th in 2011.

The next year we added Wallace Gilberry and Terrance Newman in free agency.

The Bengals don't spend a ton of money, but they have had plenty of success in signing free agents.  especially on the defensive side of the ball.

Antonio Bryant
Lavernues Coles
Jason Allen
Sam Adams
Gibril Wilson
Antwan Odom
James Harrison
AJ Hawk
Travelle Wharton
Law Firm
Denarius Moore
Greg Little
Taylor Mays
Jamaal Anderson
Edgerton Hartwell
Antonio Chatman
Ben Utecht
Nate Lawrie
Jamar Fletcher
Darryl Blackstock
Ifeanyi Ohalete
Anthony Mitchell
Duane Clemons
Bryan Robinson
Nate Webster
Mike Myers
Tank Johnson
Roy Williams

...and that's not even a complete list from Marvin's tenure alone.

I'll add that even though guys like Dhani, Nugent, Tate, and Lawson were able to get on the field, were they really any good? 

I give the Bengals tons of credit for never putting themselves in Salary Cap Hell. It's nice not wondering who has to be cut to get them under the mark. The Bengals are also fantastic at making sure their cash spent numbers are where they need to be. They frontload deals and get that cash spent number high.

Where they need work is learning how to use the actual cap properly. Constantly leaving $8-10 million unspent is not helping the team at all. That's a solid FA or a couple of role players that could potentially push them over the hump. Instead, we keep hearing about future deals that get signed but they continue to save for more future deals. Every team in the NFL deals with the future. Every team deals with the same issues the Bengals face. Most teams, the overwhelming majority of teams, spend their available cap space (or as close as possible). Meanwhile, the Bengals kick another $8-10 million down the road to sign their 2020 draft class.

Before anyone tries to flip the script, the Bengals could spend that excess cap money and still not put themselves in cap hell. Spending closer to the cap while also frontloading deals would be the best of both worlds.

(03-06-2016, 01:01 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Antonio Bryant
Lavernues Coles
Jason Allen
Sam Adams
Gibril Wilson
Antwan Odom
James Harrison
AJ Hawk
Travelle Wharton
Law Firm
Denarius Moore
Greg Little
Taylor Mays
Jamaal Anderson
Edgerton Hartwell
Antonio Chatman
Ben Utecht
Nate Lawrie
Jamar Fletcher
Darryl Blackstock
Ifeanyi Ohalete
Anthony Mitchell
Duane Clemons
Bryan Robinson
Nate Webster
Mike Myers
Tank Johnson
Roy Williams

...and that's not even a complete list from Marvin's tenure alone.

I'll add that even though guys like Dhani, Nugent, Tate, and Lawson were able to get on the field, were they really any good? 

Dhani was, don't understand why he's getting all the disrespect recently (Seen a couple people say he wasn't any good in the last few weeks). He was a terrific pick up and very smart, there was a huge noticeable hole when he left and Rey moved over.

(03-06-2016, 03:56 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Dhani was, don't understand why he's getting all the disrespect recently (Seen a couple people say he wasn't any good in the last few weeks). He was a terrific pick up and very smart, there was a huge noticeable hole when he left and Rey moved over.

Thank you! Dhani was a coup in free agency, as he brought a very high football IQ and great instincts to the MLB position. He set the defense and when we had him and Crocker the defense rarely if ever got caught out of position (which before was a constant problem). 

(03-06-2016, 01:49 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Most teams, the overwhelming majority of teams, spend their available cap space (or as close as possible). Meanwhile, the Bengals kick another $8-10 million down the road to sign their 2020 draft class.

Very few teams spend the entire cap amount, and the Bengals are better at avoiding "dead money" than anyn other team in the league.

People that hate on the Bengals don't really look at what all the other teams do.  Eight teams rolled over more money than the Bengals this year.  While the Bengals only rolled over $7.5 million three other teams rolled over more than $20 million.

(03-06-2016, 05:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: the Bengals are better at avoiding "dead money" than anyn other team in the league.

There's something fans love to hang their hats on.  "We've got less dead money than almost everyone in the league!!!!!"  What a fantastic and exciting thing for this fanbase to celebrate, for this city to be proud of, for me and you to shove back in the collective faces of Steelers fans celebrating their Lombardi trophies.

By the way, can we hang a banner for that?  Cincinnati Bengals - Least Amount of Dead Money. 2016.

(03-06-2016, 05:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: People that hate on the Bengals don't really look at what all the other teams do.  Eight teams rolled over more money than the Bengals this year.  While the Bengals only rolled over $7.5 million three other teams rolled over more than $20 million.

I don't think people take issue with the act of rolling over money itself.  It's that we do it every single year.

(03-06-2016, 05:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Very few teams spend the entire cap amount, and the Bengals are better at avoiding "dead money" than anyn other team in the league.

People that hate on the Bengals don't really look at what all the other teams do.  Eight teams rolled over more money than the Bengals this year.  While the Bengals only rolled over $7.5 million three other teams rolled over more than $20 million.

You took a small part of my post and then try to make a point that I wasn't arguing. I gave the Bengals credit for doing well with not messing up their cap. At the end of my post, I said I would just like for them to spend more than constantly rolling over money.

That's great for 8 other teams. The problem is, I'm a Bengals fan. I don't care what those 8 other teams do. Also, I am far from hating on the Bengals. I gave them credit in my post. I said it would just be nice to spend more of their available cap. Why do the Bengals consistently keep more money for draft picks than most other teams? Why do they keep more for injury contingency than most other teams? Why do 23 other teams rollover less cap money than the Bengals tend to do?

Asking the team to finally spend a little more is not the same as hating on them, bashing them, or anything of the sort. This team is close. Spending that extra $7.5 million could bring in a player that could help push them over the top. I don't understand why that's so horrible for me to ask because I want them to try and finally take that next step.

I'm not asking them to create dead money, I'm not wanting them to shell out bonuses and then have to pay those players when they're not even around, I'm not asking the team to sacrifice their cap management. I'm asking them to try and make the moves to win. That status quo is 1 and done. I want them to go out and try to get what it takes to win in the postseason.

(03-06-2016, 03:56 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Dhani was, don't understand why he's getting all the disrespect recently (Seen a couple people say he wasn't any good in the last few weeks). He was a terrific pick up and very smart, there was a huge noticeable hole when he left and Rey moved over.

(03-06-2016, 04:39 PM)Joelist Wrote: Thank you! Dhani was a coup in free agency, as he brought a very high football IQ and great instincts to the MLB position. He set the defense and when we had him and Crocker the defense rarely if ever got caught out of position (which before was a constant problem). 

You guys really think Dhani was "very good"? Decent maybe. Very good would be a stretch.

And what about the 31 other players I mentioned?