(03-08-2016, 02:00 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Is that loyalty or stupidity. You don't have to be stupid to be loyal. How about being loyal to the team and putting the best guys out there?

It's like he's loyal to the cheap ones, as for the more talented ones, well, let someone else pay those guys. That's sorta the mantra this year so far.

I forgot to include "cheap". It should have read "cheap and loyal to a expletive fault" which is as you say "stupid". We on the same page homey. 

(03-07-2016, 10:17 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Not sure how you can pay one of the best young safties in the NFL. But okay.
And Nelson's time is coming to an end. He made some great ball hawking plays, but watch him using angles on offensive players and then come talk to me. He struggled in numerous plays. Great ball hawker, but you could see games where his age was showing.

Iloka > Nelson.

(03-07-2016, 10:22 PM)Alleyviper13 Wrote: ^^^^^ WOLF  

I understand you like youth right now, but Id take Nelson over Iloka any day. Hes a leader and his experience in the NFL is amazing especially since being traded from Jacksonville to us. Hes become phenomenal. Iloka is eating off the plate reggie served up. Iloka didnt come this far on his own.

Iloka has a ton of potential, but right now it's just mostly potential. He had a great 2014, but it was sandwiched by two okay/slightly above average seasons.

Right this second, Nelson is the vastly better safety and it's not even close. While Nelson doesn't have 5-6 years or whatever in him and Iloka does, the fact remains the Bengals need to start worrying about winning NOW. Their players are not getting any younger. So what if Nelson only has two more years left in him? Those two years are the most important two for the Bengals franchise.

Think about where the Bengals will be after two more seasons.

Carlos Dunlap will be 29 and in his contract year.
Geno Atkins will be 30 and in his contract year.
Michael Johnson will be 31 and in his contract year.
AJ Green will be 30.
Vontaze Burfict will be a free agent.
Andrew Whitworth will be retired.
Leon Hall will likely be retired.
Rey Maualuga will be 31 and a free agent.

Not counting all the other people who will be FA before then.

- - - - -
Youth and potential is good and all, but at some point the Bengals need to try to win it all NOW before they finish wasting the prime years of all their best talent. So between Nelson and Iloka, give me Nelson because he'll be better at helping you try to win now.

I also feel much better about Nelson and Williams than Iloka and Williams.

(03-08-2016, 02:16 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Iloka has a ton of potential, but right now it's just mostly potential. He had a great 2014, but it was sandwiched by two okay/slightly above average seasons.

Right this second, Nelson is the vastly better safety and it's not even close. While Nelson doesn't have 5-6 years or whatever in him and Iloka does, the fact remains the Bengals need to start worrying about winning NOW. Their players are not getting any younger. So what if Nelson only has two more years left in him? Those two years are the most important two for the Bengals franchise.

Think about where the Bengals will be after two more seasons.

Carlos Dunlap will be 29 and in his contract year.
Geno Atkins will be 30 and in his contract year.
Michael Johnson will be 31 and in his contract year.
AJ Green will be 30.
Vontaze Burfict will be a free agent.
Andrew Whitworth will be retired.
Leon Hall will likely be retired.
Rey Maualuga will be 31 and a free agent.

Not counting all the other people who will be FA before then.

- - - - -
Youth and potential is good and all, but at some point the Bengals need to try to win it all NOW before they finish wasting the prime years of all their best talent. So between Nelson and Iloka, give me Nelson because he'll be better at helping you try to win now.

I also feel much better about Nelson and Williams than Iloka and Williams.

But Iloka is already a better safety than Nelson, it's not about potential, it's about reality.

That's why he'll get more on the market and why we'll sign Nelson most likely unfortunately.

(03-08-2016, 03:34 AM)Stormborn Wrote: But Iloka is already a better safety than Nelson, it's not about potential, it's about reality.

That's why he'll get more on the market and why we'll sign Nelson most likely unfortunately.

Lol, there is no way that Iloka is a better safety than Nelson right this second. I think you hopped onto the 2014 Iloka hype train a little too unhesitatingly there.

2012-2015....

George Iloka: 51 games / 189 tackles / 0.0 sacks / 20 Pdef / 5 INT / 2 FF  / 0 Pro Bowl, 0 All-Pro
Reggie Nelson: 61 games / 322 tackles / 3.5 sacks / 43 Pdef / 17 INT / 3 FF / 1 Pro Bowl, 1 2nd Team All-Pro

2014-2015 (if you want to argue that Iloka didn't break out until 2014)...

George Iloka: 28 games / 121 tackles / 0.0 sacks / 14 Pdef / 4 INT / 0 FF / 0 Pro Bowl, 0 All-Pro
Reggie Nelson: 32 games / 172 tackles / 1.5 sacks / 27 Pdef / 12 INT / 0 FF / 1 Pro Bowl, 1 2nd Team All-Pro


Yeah, sorry to break it to you Storm, but Nelson is a far better safety right now. The only reason Iloka will get more on the market is because he's much younger and has potential, not because of what he's actually proven.

(03-08-2016, 03:34 AM)Stormborn Wrote: But Iloka is already a better safety than Nelson, it's not about potential, it's about reality.

That's why he'll get more on the market and why we'll sign Nelson most likely unfortunately.

That might be the most ridiculous statement I have read here yet....

(03-07-2016, 10:13 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Didn't the Vikings make the playoffs?  Why the hell would they be trying to bring in FA's?

The Bengals are all a bunch of losers.  Why would anyone want any of our players?

I remember last year the Vikes wanted Michael Johnson badly; however, he chose us over them. Maybe players see things differently than fans.

It's not like Zim is going on a spending spree like the Buc, Browns or Dolphins do. He's targeting players he's familiar with. It just so happens that the guys he's familiar with our top tier free agents. It's a smart approach.

Zimmer will land one of those guys.

(03-08-2016, 04:05 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Lol, there is no way that Iloka is a better safety than Nelson right this second. I think you hopped onto the 2014 Iloka hype train a little too unhesitatingly there.

2012-2015....

George Iloka: 51 games / 189 tackles / 0.0 sacks / 20 Pdef / 5 INT / 2 FF  / 0 Pro Bowl, 0 All-Pro
Reggie Nelson: 61 games / 322 tackles / 3.5 sacks / 43 Pdef / 17 INT / 3 FF / 1 Pro Bowl, 1 2nd Team All-Pro

2014-2015 (if you want to argue that Iloka didn't break out until 2014)...

George Iloka: 28 games / 121 tackles / 0.0 sacks / 14 Pdef / 4 INT / 0 FF / 0 Pro Bowl, 0 All-Pro
Reggie Nelson: 32 games / 172 tackles / 1.5 sacks / 27 Pdef / 12 INT / 0 FF / 1 Pro Bowl, 1 2nd Team All-Pro


Yeah, sorry to break it to you Storm, but Nelson is a far better safety right now. The only reason Iloka will get more on the market is because he's much younger and has potential, not because of what he's actually proven.

(03-08-2016, 10:14 AM)Sled21 Wrote: That might be the most ridiculous statement I have read here yet....

I ask both of you to watch both players specifically if you decide to rewatch 2015. Evaluating safeties is difficult is stats are your primary argument. 

If a player is way more consistent in coverage will he get more errand passes thrown at him? Of course not. Allow more catches and then make the sequential tackles? No. This is common sense. There's nothing Reggie can do that Iloka can't, but you ask both to switch roles, then you will see an even bigger decrease in Nelson's quality of play.  

I like Reggie, I always have, but Iloka is worth more because he does his job better, don't let the stats mislead you completely. 

(03-08-2016, 10:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The Bengals are all a bunch of losers.  Why would anyone want any of our players?

I honestly don't expect you to keep every particular gripe in line with each individual poster, but I am certainly of the mindset that we have had a lot of talent in the past decade or so and our lack of success comes from the accountability-free owner and head coach.

We had talented players, some were very good, some are still playing very well for other teams, we STILL have talented players, we had/have(?) a number of coordinators who are HC-caliber.  This franchise has possibly seen MORE that its share of talent since the early 2000's, and to get nothing out of it past the regular season is almost baffling.

And I realize this is somewhat unrelated, but the only reason we aren't looking to replace Kapernick or Mallett right now is Jay Gruden. An arena-league OC had to talk our GM with 20+ years of experience out of drafting at least one gigantic bust. This franchise has been pretty fortunate, if you ask me.

(03-08-2016, 12:53 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: It's not like Zim is going on a spending spree like the Buc, Browns or Dolphins do. He's targeting players he's familiar with. It just so happens that the guys he's familiar with our top tier free agents. It's a smart approach.

I guess that means we could ask our new coaches (Haslett, Lazor, Coyle, Burney) about free agents they're familiar with?

For some reason, I don't see the Bengals ever using that "smart approach".

I bet Zimmer won't go after Hunt when he's available

(03-08-2016, 02:13 PM)GodFather Wrote: I bet Zimmer won't go after Hunt when he's available

Well, you'd have to think Zim was on board with drafting him to begin with.

(03-08-2016, 01:42 PM)Stormborn Wrote: I ask both of you to watch both players specifically if you decide to rewatch 2015. Evaluating safeties is difficult is stats are your primary argument. 

If a player is way more consistent in coverage will he get more errand passes thrown at him? Of course not. Allow more catches and then make the sequential tackles? No. This is common sense. There's nothing Reggie can do that Iloka can't, but you ask both to switch roles, then you will see an even bigger decrease in Nelson's quality of play.  

I like Reggie, I always have, but Iloka is worth more because he does his job better, don't let the stats mislead you completely. 

You do realize safeties aren't playing man coverage a ton right? 

(03-08-2016, 02:10 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I guess that means we could ask our new coaches (Haslett, Lazor, Coyle, Burney) about free agents they're familiar with?

For some reason, I don't see the Bengals ever using that "smart approach".

I was talking about coordinators making offers to players as head coaches they've coached from their previous teams.

They brought back Michael Johnson last season after the Bucs paid too much for him. That's someone they were familiar with. The only reason why Denarius Moore got a shot last season was because Hue coached him in Oakland. They also looked at Louis Murphy last season I believe because of Hue's connection with him.

You don't believe it's a smart approach to free agency to bring in players you've coached personally compared to someone you're unfamiliar with? You already have established chemistry with each other which is a big advantage. It seems like some free agents don't mesh with their new teams.

(03-07-2016, 10:20 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: True...4 years $16 mil for their starting strong safety from last year. Doesn't mean they couldn't sign another but would be a lot of money tied up in the safety spot

I think Zimmer would be ok with that. He liked defenses strong from the back forward (which paid off for us as the league has moved to making it more pass friendly so you need more than just an Ike Taylor-type running around the backfield falling on people or holding onto them for 10 yards).

I wouldn't be surprised at all for Zimmer to make a healthy offer. The guys know him, know what he expects and know what he wants to do defensively. I'm already resigned to the fact one is probably gone. Hoping this won't end up making it both.

(03-08-2016, 02:43 PM)Aquapod770 Wrote: You do realize safeties aren't playing man coverage a ton right? 

Be smart, we both know we ask our safeties to handle deep cover 2 shell zones. When did I even mention man? Just because George isn't playing bump and run a lot doesn't mean you can negate separation when someone enters your zone.

That's what makes him so special, his range is impeccable, he covers ground better than anyone we have and allows very few balls on his side.  

People favoring Nelson should really go watch the first half of the season again.

(03-08-2016, 04:05 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 2014-2015
George Iloka: 28 games / 121 tackles / 0.0 sacks / 14 Pdef / 4 INT / 0 FF / 0 Pro Bowl, 0 All-Pro
Reggie Nelson: 32 games / 172 tackles / 1.5 sacks / 27 Pdef / 12 INT / 0 FF / 1 Pro Bowl, 1 2nd Team All-Pro

2014-2015
Earl Thomas: 32 games / 161 tackles / 0.0 sacks / 15 Pdef / 6 INT / 4 FF / 2 Pro Bowl, 1 All-Pro

But wait. Thomas didn't have as great as states as Nelson. Yet still was named an All Pro. And Nelson led the league in INTs last year. It's alsmotas if you can't weigh a safety by their stats..... Then you can throw in Kam Chancellor too

2015-2015
Kam Chancellor: 25 games / 152 tackles / 0.0 sacks / 10 Pdef / 3 INT / 2 FF / 1 Pro Bowl, 1 2nd Team All-Pro

So even looking at those stats, that would lead you to believe that Nelson is better than both safeties. Throw out their awards, stats alone would show that Nelson has been better than both safties. Right?

Way more INTs. More passes defended. More tackles. More sacks.
But, stats don't always tell the whole story.

Not saying Nelson is a bad safety, he's not. He actually improved a lot as the season progressed. But to act like Iloka isn't good because of his stats is ludicrous. It's not potential, it's reality.

Iloka is one of the best safties in the NFL. He helps you win NOW. And helps you win in the future.