"If the Bengals are going to continue to waste high value picks on project players, I'd rather them trade the picks away. The return they would get would probably fair much better than their next Hunt pick."-muskiesfan

Yup, trade out of the 1st at this point.

(03-06-2016, 12:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is assuming we do not re-sign a single one of our potential free agents, right?

I don't think that is going to happen.

If we don't re-sign Iloka. 
None of our other FA on defense are that good or proven to be that good

(03-06-2016, 02:27 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: If we don't re-sign Iloka. 
None of our other FA on defense are that good or proven to be that good

Reggie Nelson and Leon Hall?

(03-06-2016, 01:56 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: I don't know if it's the small scouting department, being cheap, or just plain ignorance, but shouldn't you save the projects for the late rounds (5-7)? You first 3-4 rounds you should be focusing on talent that could potentially come in and play Day 1. You shouldn't be wasting those picks on guys you hope to turn into a starter by the end of their rookie deal. I'm sure someone can throw out a list of project players taken in the first 4 rounds that became something. I honestly don't care how long the list is because the list of talent based picks that became something will be considerably longer.

Every legitimate draft projection had him going in the 2nd-3rd round.

(03-06-2016, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Every legitimate draft projection had him going in the 2nd-3rd round.

But he was a project. Everyone knew he was a project. Let someone else waste a 2nd round pick on a project. Especially when considering the Bengals track record of having their projects pan out, go after someone who may be able to help Day 1.

(03-06-2016, 02:26 PM)Atomic Orange Wrote: "If the Bengals are going to continue to waste high value picks on project players, I'd rather them trade the picks away. The return they would get would probably fair much better than their next Hunt pick."-muskiesfan

Yup, trade out of the 1st at this point.

Yes, that was exactly what I said. I said they should trade their 1st round pick. I only mentioned the first round when saying 1-4 tend to be your more valuable picks. I was also talking about a 2nd rust project bust. When do the Bengals tend to take their project players? Around the 3rd. They just went a round early on Hunt. But you're right, I want them to trade out of the first. That's word for word what I said.

(03-06-2016, 05:30 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: But he was a project. Everyone knew he was a project. Let someone else waste a 2nd round pick on a project. Especially when considering the Bengals track record of having their projects pan out, go after someone who may be able to help Day 1.

Teams that value immediate contribution over long tern value lose in the long run.

Smart teams draft for the future, not just one year.

(03-06-2016, 05:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Teams that value immediate contribution over long tern value lose in the long run.

Smart teams draft for the future, not just one year.

How's that working out for the Bengals? Margus Hunt has done well, right? How about Dontay Moch? Chase Coffman paid huge dividends. I'm super happy they took Jerome Simpson instead of DeSean Jackson.

There's no reason to really go any further. Hunt is a bust. Moch was a bust. Taking a pass catching tight end and keeping him off of the field because of his blocking was a bust. Jerome Simpson took 3 years to learn the playbook. My point is that in the 2nd-3rd rounds, the Bengals shouldn't be looking for their projects.

(03-06-2016, 03:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Reggie Nelson and Leon Hall?

30+ year old safety who MIGHT be an exception to the rule. He won't factor in to the 2-3 years from now anyways.

Leon is not as good as he once was. Two torn Achilles's tendons and he just can't hang with guys anymore. 
Again, not likely to factor in the 2-3 year window I was talking about. 

(03-06-2016, 05:42 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: How's that working out for the Bengals? Margus Hunt has done well, right? How about Dontay Moch? Chase Coffman paid huge dividends. I'm super happy they took Jerome Simpson instead of DeSean Jackson.

There's no reason to really go any further. Hunt is a bust. Moch was a bust. Taking a pass catching tight end and keeping him off of the field because of his blocking was a bust. Jerome Simpson took 3 years to learn the playbook. My point is that in the 2nd-3rd rounds, the Bengals shouldn't be looking for their projects.

The same Eagles who took Jackson after Simpson passed on Chad Johnson to waste a first round pick on Freddie Mitchell.  Plus Simpson ended up with more receptions than 2 of the 5 WRs taken before him in the draft and 5 of the other nine WRs taken in the first two rounds that year.  

And I could go through every team and find second and third round busts who were NOT projects.

Some projects are worth second round picks.  Some are not.  If you absolutely refuase to draft any projects early you will miss out on some really good players.

(03-06-2016, 05:45 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: 30+ year old safety who MIGHT be an exception to the rule. He won't factor in to the 2-3 years from now anyways.

Leon is not as good as he once was. Two torn Achilles's tendons and he just can't hang with guys anymore. 
Again, not likely to factor in the 2-3 year window I was talking about. 

Sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about a 2-3 year period.  when you said we had to hit a "hail Mary in the '16 draft" I assumed you were talking about a guy having to start as a rookie.

(03-06-2016, 06:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about a 2-3 year period.  when you said we had to hit a "hail Mary in the '16 draft" I assumed you were talking about a guy having to start as a rookie.

We'd need a transcendent player like a Geno, Burfict or Dunlap if most guys from 2015 don't work out at an above average level.
Geno and Dunlap will be on the end of their deals and historically, on the down swing of their careers. 
Need new young players who can impact. 

(03-06-2016, 06:12 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: We'd need a transcendent player like a Geno, Burfict or Dunlap if most guys from 2015 don't work out at an above average level.
Geno and Dunlap will be on the end of their deals and historically, on the down swing of their careers. 
Need new young players who can impact. 

Okay, man, I see exactly what you are saying now.  I just thought that if you were talking about the next 2-3 years then a hail mary in any of those drafts would help us out.

Instead of picking at nits I think we both agree that the Bengals really need to turn around the recent trend of drafting defensive players.

He was a horrible choice. I screamed and moaned about it the second the pick was made.

Not only was he a raw project, but he was an OLD project. What was he, 24-25 when he was drafted?

Terrible choice. Glad to see him go.

4 pages of a Margus Hunt thread? ill end it

Cut him

/thread

(03-06-2016, 12:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We tried Brooks at different positions, but even Mike Zimmer could get anything out of him.  He was a 3-4 OLB for the niners

Justin Smith had the exact same number of sacks (43.5) in the exact same number of years (7) with both the Bengals and Niners.

Steve Foley had one good season in his entire career.  He had 10 sacks for the Chargers when he was 29 and on his third team in three years.  His career was over a year later.  He didn't "flourish" anywhere.

And even if you want to nitpick about these guys the truth is that 4 examples over 2 decades is not exactly a huge trend.

Ahmad Brooks played rush end for the niners and did a pretty damn good job....much more productive than he was here.  I'm assuming you looked that up, but it didn't agree with your arguement or you would have posted them. The Bengals had to go so far as to draft Dontay Moch in Rd 3 to try and be a rush end for pass-rushing downs, and failed miserably.  Ditto the Chris Carter experiment.  

Justin Smith became a perennial Pro Bowler for the 49ers, and was touted by many as the best 3-4 end in the league....no one said that when he was in Cincy. 

Steve Foley was given a chance in SD that he never got here and had a breakout year.  He was shot by a police officer and was never the same after that.  

Just how many examples do you need?  It isn't like they draft from this position group every year.  Those were guys the Bengals had for some time that did better elsewhere after they left.

The OP said "several" and I gave several examples.  

(03-07-2016, 11:04 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Ahmad Brooks played rush end for the niners and did a pretty damn good job....much more productive than he was here.  I'm assuming you looked that up, but it didn't agree with your arguement or you would have posted them.

Justin Smith became a perennial Pro Bowler for the 49ers, and was touted by many as the best 3-4 end in the league....no one said that when he was in Cincy. 

Just how many examples do you need?  It isn't like they draft from this position group every year. 

1.  I looked up Brooks and everything I found said he played OLB

2.  The original comment was about coaching up players to rush the passer, so the fact that Smith had just as many sacks per year with the Bengals as he did with the Niners proves nothing.

3.. How many examples do I need?  More than 4 in 20 years.  In fact you mentioned Alfred Williams when in fact Williams had more 9+ sack season in four years with the Bengals than he did in five years with other teams. So don't know how you can consider that a strike against the Bengals.

And if just one 10 sack season by Foley is considered "thriving" to you. Then what about the fact that Dunlap had 13.5 in one season for the Bengals, and Michael Johnson had 11.5, and Geathers had 10.5, Justin Smith had his career high in sacks (8.5) with the Bengals,  Alfred Williams had seasons of 10 and 9.5, John Copeland had 9, Reinard Wilson had 9, Danny Stubbs had 9.  

Margus Hunt has next to zero football instincts. It doesn't matter how big, how strong, how whatever he is. He is not a good football player. Even when he beats the O-linemen he doesn't know what to do from there.

It was time to end it after the last camp. They've just got to admit they wasted a 2nd round pick !

(03-08-2016, 10:21 AM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  I looked up Brooks and everything I found said he played OLB

OLB in a 3-4 is a rush end. They spend most of their time rushing the QB or staying on or near the LOS. 

That's why a lot of people have taken to the designation of EDGE for 3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE

(03-08-2016, 12:20 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: It was time to end it after the last camp. They've just got to admit they wasted a 2nd round pick !

Here is what a lot of people miss.  There were just not a lot of great DEs on the street to replace Hunt.   He didn't look very good, but that does not mean there is an unemployed DE out there somewhere who is that much better.