Jim, I think where much of the confusion lies for some of us is why a lot of things are brought up (By Geoff) when discussing the cap. I'm not sure what the practice squad has to do with our cap space.

Practice squad: Technically, a team doesn’t have to have one. Technically, they don’t need to have the maximum 10 players on it. All teams do, though. They make just over $100K a year individually = about a million. They have to paid somehow. And it does count against the salary cap.

Per the official language of the CBA: Practice Squad contract Salaries shall be included in Team Salary.

And while I don't doubt each team, depending on where they draft, has 6-7 million budgeted for rookies, I don't understand what that figure has to do with our remaining cap dollars.

Say we draft 7 rookies. Only 3-5 of them are going to count against the cap (Top 51). So while the total for all of their respective 2016 salaries is in that range (6-7 mil) it's not what will count against us. And the biggest thing I take issue with him writing it in the way he does is he never accounts for who these rookies will replace. Some incoming players will mean existing players will come off the books. Veterans gets cut, all of who usually make more than the 2nd and 3rd round guys. So I mean, really, how much are we adding (if anything at all)?
It just seems a tad dishonest. If he were writing about the total payroll of the 2016 rookie class, then yeah, sure, it's right on the money. Setting that amount to the side makes zero sense though.

The rookie pool is fixed, so that never will change. But it’s not just a one-for-one. Like, Josh Shaw coming in at $558K and T. Newman off the books at $2 million = Bengals were +$1.4 million. Technically, yes, but Leon Hall’s salary went up $900K, Dalton’s went up $500K … so there’s that difference. Money moves around.

I can’t really go through all the rosters and salaries from year to year, but that matters. And honestly, it does affect roll over room. Like, the Bengals rolled over $8,697,310 from 2014 into 2015 to sign A.J. Green. Perhaps some of that was left over from when they cut Westbrooks and because Geathers walked. Who knows?

Fwiw, I thought many of these teams had those bonuses already accounted for in the "likely to be earned" category?

They do – but you also have to have the money available for the bonuses no one expects to be earned. Honestly. Let’s say Eric Winston had a bonus for a % of snaps played. Well going into 2015 no one would think he would meet that. But say Whit got hurt and he played 15 games. He earned it. Well, you need the money to pay it. Likely? No. But still have prepare that you have to. It’s in the contract.

All I'm saying is plenty of teams are up against the cap every year. Say within 5 mil. I can't think of any team that just sets aside the money we do for these expenses. And why the team's writer (again, Geoff) references practice squad salaries I don't know. It seems as relevant to the cap conversation as toiletries and things like a Cincinnati Water Works bill.

Say what you want about how they do their math – in 2015 the NFLPA recorded that the Bengals spent $136,954,631 on 58 contracts by the time the league year ended, leaving the $7,587,902 left over to apply to the extensions they want to work out this summer.

In reality, the Bengals paid 83 men to wear their uniform in 2014 at some point. Some were just practice squad. Some were just practice squad for just three weeks. But that’s 83 guys whose money counted, at some point, against the operating cash that year. It had to be accounted for.

By contrast, in 2015, the Bengals paid 72 guys to participate because it was a much healthier year. You can’t predict that, but you have to have the money to handle a boat load of injuries. Banner, who ran the Browns and Eagles, say he set aside that money. And he's plugged in. When he says the average is $1-5 million set aside, I believe it.

Just a final point….
No team other than the Packers has to open its books. Unless ownership does that for a writer, you’re not going to hear about it or see it, really.

Honestly, the fact that Hobson, or myself in this case, has some of this information is … very, very rare. No other fan base, really, can complain about this knowledge because they don’t have it. Is it better to not know what they’re working with? Look at what Miami did today with all those restructures. Pretty much every NFL expert worth his salt said this was a disaster for the Dolphins in a year or two. But, they had to do it to get some space. The Bengals never have to do that stuff.


Now if MLJ and Iloka walk, I would want the Bengals to make a serious effort to replace at least one of them via FA. Preferably MLJ because Shawn Williams looks good and rookie WRs often take time to develop. Trevathan would be nice too, but that's a pipe dream. Btw...isn't it a little sad that a mid-tier FA like Trevathan is just a pipe dream for Bengals fans? Ugh.

Honestly, yes. You would think the team would sign a upper-middle tier difference maker occasionally. But I also covered the Packers for three years and this is the same lament their fan base has – and they’ve landed Charles Woodson and Julius Peppers in the last 10 years. But that’s it. Seriously. We know the names, but that’s literally it. So I guess they’ve signed two more upper-middle tier difference makers at that point (but they were in their 30s, no one wanted to sign them – only Ted saw that they had something left.)

(03-06-2016, 01:25 AM)jowczarski Wrote: But I also covered the Packers for three years and this is the same lament their fan base has – and they’ve landed Charles Woodson and Julius Peppers in the last 10 years. But that’s it. Seriously. We know the names, but that’s literally it. So I guess they’ve signed two more upper-middle tier difference makers at that point (but they were in their 30s, no one wanted to sign them – only Ted saw that they had something left.)

First of all I want to say again how great it is to have a professional journalist covering our team to step into the mess that is a fan message board.  Pretty much everyone of us here are hard core Bengal fans burdened with years of bad experiences.  Although the Packers are the closest to the Bengals in their personnel decisions the Packers do not have stigma of losing and players complaining about how cheap the team was.  Their are some people here who can not discuss free agent decisions in 2015 without bringing up Bengal players complaining about small towels in the locker room thirty years ago.  In 2011 Johnathan Joseph left us when we were projected to be the absolute worst team in the league to join the Texans who were at that time considered serious Super Bowl contenders (same off season that Palmer walked away) and many people around here act like it was because Joseph was not allowed to take home unlimited amounts of gatrorade from the Bengal facilities.  I think it is good for all of us to hear the opinion of a person who is detached from the decades of frustration (and sometimes embarrassment) that have passed since our last playoff victory. 

Now for my question.  The packers are the only publicly held NFL team ran like a business.  The Bengals are about the only team in the league where the team is the sole family business.  Most teams are owned by men who made fortunes in other businesses and just bought a team for entertainment purposes.  Do you think the unique ownership situation of the Bengal and Packers have an effect on their conservative personnel strategy?

Hey, Jim.

Now that the "real" cap number is down to 15K, my view of retaining key guys has dimmed a bit.

Do you think that the Bengals are willing to let all of the key guys (Reggie, Adam, Iloka, Sanu, and MLJ) walk if the offers they get elsewhere are inlayed beyond what they see as reasonable. I have a bad feeling that they just may for some reason. 15 mil would probably get spent on guys like Vinny Rey if they give him the rumored 5 mil AAV, Wallace at 3 mil AAV, Leon at 3 AAV, Tate's mil or so, and Pat Sims at a mil. Signing all of the lesser guys would be about 3mil short, but they could inflate the deals to meet the 15.

Is it insane to see this as a thing that might come to be?

Jim.....wtf is up with the league rescinding the fine on Munchak? Any grumblings from the Bengals on the matter besides Burfict? I'm about done with this crap.....bush league.

Joey Porter is going to get his fine rescinded next. WTF Jim?

And I take it the Bengals are rolling out with unproven rookies and aren't signing a seasoned veteren WR?

Do you any have post free agency insight into the Bengals thinking for the upcoming draft? Obviously Wide Receiver has become an even bigger need than before, but will this likely be a position targeted in the first round? I feel like the best value for Wide Receiver's will be in the 2nd and 3rd rounds with guys like Tyler Boyd, Michael Thomas, Sterling Shephard, and possibly someone slipping like Doctson, Coleman, or Fuller. Thoughts?

(03-15-2016, 09:21 AM)JungleRock85 Wrote: Do you any have post free agency insight into the Bengals thinking for the upcoming draft? Obviously Wide Receiver has become an even bigger need than before, but will this likely be a position targeted in the first round? I feel like the best value for Wide Receiver's will be in the 2nd and 3rd rounds with guys like Tyler Boyd, Michael Thomas, Sterling Shephard, and possibly someone slipping like Doctson, Coleman, or Fuller. Thoughts?

No idea what his thoughts are, but I would tend to think you are onto something with the 2nd round. My guess is they'd like a corner to drop in the first, and receiver of value in the 2nd... It just seems to be their modus operandi.

Hey Jim. I wanted to ask for a breakdown of next years projected comp picks. I realize its not set in stone yet, Cincinnati's front office is killing it with extra draft picks ( this year excluded - what happened ).
Thanks!

(03-19-2016, 02:41 PM)orangeandblackblood Wrote: Hey Jim. I wanted to ask for a breakdown of next years projected comp picks. I realize its not set in stone yet, Cincinnati's front office is killing it with extra draft picks ( this year excluded - what happened ).
Thanks!

Just saw this article on CJ that's worth a look. Since the exact formula isn't publicly known and there are still FA's left to sign this is probably as accurate as you'll get this early in the process.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/3/19/11246906/examining-bengals-anticipated-2017-compensatory-draft-picks

If we were to trade Vontaz( I no we won't just curious) what would be fair value for him?

Hey all! No problem. I enjoy coming on to these things and the sub-reddit. Twitter is a bit crazier, but I still like enjoying people there. You can, of course, get at me on the Facebook in my profile as well. No matter what fans or players/coaches/owners think of us, we’re the direct conduit between those two parties – so I feel it’s important to be accessible. You all come up with questions sometimes I don’t think of, and I can write in a way here that I can’t always under my banner at Cincinnati.com


Now for my question. The packers are the only publicly held NFL team ran like a business. The Bengals are about the only team in the league where the team is the sole family business. Most teams are owned by men who made fortunes in other businesses and just bought a team for entertainment purposes. Do you think the unique ownership situation of the Bengal and Packers have an effect on their conservative personnel strategy?


I do think that matters. As far as I know, the Chicago Bears (McCaskeys), New York Giants (Maras), Oakland Raiders (Davises) and the Pittsbugh Steelers (Rooneys) are the only legacy, family ownerships whose business is football (forgive me if I missed another one or two) but when that’s your main source of income, it does matter.

Now, because of that, the Bears and Bengals (two teams I know a bit about) have long been accused of being “cheap” but in reality, they spend more than enough on a consistent basis.

Now, unlike all of those other families – and even the Packers - I do think the Bengals lag far behind in monetizing their brand within Cincinnati. I’m not as well versed in the details of the lease but all of those other institutions have done a great job of creating revenue that they get to keep and then in turn, put out. The NFL is not a true “revenue sharing” league in some ways. Yes they split TV, but each team can generate their own revenue streams that stay in their pocket. I don’t want to go down the rabbit hole of PBS, but to your question, yes, such ownership structures do directly impact how they operate and how much they spend.

Do you think that the Bengals are willing to let all of the key guys (Reggie, Adam, Iloka, Sanu, and MLJ) walk if the offers they get elsewhere are inlayed beyond what they see as reasonable. I have a bad feeling that they just may for some reason. 15 mil would probably get spent on guys like Vinny Rey if they give him the rumored 5 mil AAV, Wallace at 3 mil AAV, Leon at 3 AAV, Tate's mil or so, and Pat Sims at a mil. Signing all of the lesser guys would be about 3mil short, but they could inflate the deals to meet the 15.

Is it insane to see this as a thing that might come to be?

I wanted to wait a bit on this and obviously now we see how free agency played out and the team probably spent close to $19. They told me they pulled from their allotted injury pool – which is on the high end of the league average. I think I said someone here (or maybe it was on Twitter or whatever) that the $15 was a conservative number. Maybe it was the number they wanted to hit, but they clearly were ready to go higher especially my offering Marvin Jones $40.


wtf is up with the league rescinding the fine on Munchak? Any grumblings from the Bengals on the matter besides Burfict?

Honestly, no idea. No one would answer it in Boca Raton. I had one guy insinuate some racial elements could have been at play – i.e. if Paul Alexander grabbed the hair of Clay Matthews, would his fine have been as low, or rescinded? Now, I think that’s too easy a path to travel – but when something like this happens, considering Reggie isn’t a “star” and all that, the NFL continually allows itself to be questioned in such ways.

And I take it the Bengals are rolling out with unproven rookies and aren't signing a seasoned veteren WR?

They will sign a veteran. I can’t say if it’ll be LaFell but they are working towards that. I think they want some protections if they need to cut the dude, like D. Moore – they don’t want to pay a guy to not be on their roster.

Do you any have post free agency insight into the Bengals thinking for the upcoming draft? Obviously Wide Receiver has become an even bigger need than before, but will this likely be a position targeted in the first round?

Great question and Paul Dehner Jr. and I will really dive into this at Cincinnati.com over the next month. Honestly, it makes so much sense that they HAVE to draft a receiver in the first round that I see them picking a corner. ☺

Hey Jim. I wanted to ask for a breakdown of next years projected comp picks. I realize its not set in stone yet, Cincinnati's front office is killing it with extra draft picks ( this year excluded - what happened ).

I think right now they will get the maximum allotment of four, from rounds 4-7. This is mainly due to the fact that there was SO MUCH MONEY spent elsewhere around the league. Marvin Jones got the biggest contract and it was “just” for $40 million. I guess if he plays every single snap on offense and catches 100 passes in Detroit, he could somehow sneak into the third round but honestly, that formula is so secretive and based more on salary than play time, it could be difficult.


If we were to trade Vontaz( I no we won't just curious) what would be fair value for him?

These are always hard because aside from in-your-prime QBs, NFL players have very little trade value. Seriously. You see a couple here or there, but so much goes into – guaranteed money, contracts being restructured, guys being put into new schemes, new divisions, and really, the new players around them. For instance, Burfict is a really good linebacker – but having an All-Pro DT and a Pro Bowl DE in front of him kind of helps.

So, let’s strip it down. Tez makes basically no money. So that increases his value. He’s proven he’s healthy, and he was a monster at the end of the year. That helps. But, he’s clearly got some on-field issues. Honestly, teams around the league won’t care. He’s not getting arrested. Any coach will think they can coach personal fouls out of a guy.

His value would be “high” – but in that case you’re looking at only say, a mid-round draft pick. Why? Because he plays a position that many teams feel can be easily found in the draft. He’s a good all around ‘backer, makes tackles, but he’s not going to give you 13 sacks. He’s not Brian Urlacher in terms of how he can affect the passing game with his speed and lateral coverage ability. So, there’s value, but really if you’re thinking of guys that could fetch the Bengals a high end first round pick, it’s Dalton and maybe A.J. Green. Geno could get you a first rounder too, IMO. That’s it.

(03-06-2016, 01:25 AM)jowczarski Wrote: Jim, I think where much of the confusion lies for some of us is why a lot of things are brought up (By Geoff) when discussing the cap.  I'm not sure what the practice squad has to do with our cap space.  

Practice squad: Technically, a team doesn’t have to have one. Technically, they don’t need to have the maximum 10 players on it. All teams do, though. They make just over $100K a year individually = about a million. They have to paid somehow. And it does count against the salary cap.

Per the official language of the CBA: Practice Squad contract Salaries shall be included in Team Salary.

And while I don't doubt each team, depending on where they draft, has 6-7 million budgeted for rookies, I don't understand what that figure has to do with our remaining cap dollars.

Say we draft 7 rookies.  Only 3-5 of them are going to count against the cap (Top 51).  So while the total for all of their respective 2016 salaries is in that range (6-7 mil) it's not what will count against us.  And the biggest thing I take issue with him writing it in the way he does is he never accounts for who these rookies will replace.  Some incoming players will mean existing players will come off the books.  Veterans gets cut, all of who usually make more than the 2nd and 3rd round guys. So I mean, really, how much are we adding (if anything at all)?
It just seems a tad dishonest. If he were writing about the total payroll of the 2016 rookie class, then yeah, sure, it's right on the money.  Setting that amount to the side makes zero sense though.

The rookie pool is fixed, so that never will change. But it’s not just a one-for-one. Like, Josh Shaw coming in at $558K and T. Newman off the books at $2 million = Bengals were +$1.4 million. Technically, yes, but Leon Hall’s salary went up $900K, Dalton’s went up $500K … so there’s that difference. Money moves around.

I can’t really go through all the rosters and salaries from year to year, but that matters. And honestly, it does affect roll over room. Like, the Bengals rolled over $8,697,310 from 2014 into 2015 to sign A.J. Green. Perhaps some of that was left over from when they cut Westbrooks and because Geathers walked. Who knows?

Fwiw, I thought many of these teams had those bonuses already accounted for in the "likely to be earned" category?

They do – but you also have to have the money available for the bonuses no one expects to be earned. Honestly. Let’s say Eric Winston had a bonus for a % of snaps played. Well going into 2015 no one would think he would meet that. But say Whit got hurt and he played 15 games. He earned it. Well, you need the money to pay it. Likely? No. But still have prepare that you have to. It’s in the contract.

All I'm saying is plenty of teams are up against the cap every year.  Say within 5 mil.  I can't think of any team that just sets aside the money we do for these expenses.  And why the team's writer (again, Geoff) references practice squad salaries I don't know.  It seems as relevant to the cap conversation as toiletries and things like a Cincinnati Water Works bill.

Say what you want about how they do their math – in 2015 the NFLPA recorded that the Bengals spent $136,954,631 on 58 contracts by the time the league year ended, leaving the $7,587,902 left over to apply to the extensions they want to work out this summer.

In reality, the Bengals paid 83 men to wear their uniform in 2014 at some point. Some were just practice squad. Some were just practice squad for just three weeks. But that’s 83 guys whose money counted, at some point, against the operating cash that year. It had to be accounted for.

By contrast, in 2015, the Bengals paid 72 guys to participate because it was a much healthier year. You can’t predict that, but you have to have the money to handle a boat load of injuries. Banner, who ran the Browns and Eagles, say he set aside that money. And he's plugged in. When he says the average is $1-5 million set aside, I believe it.

Just a final point….
No team other than the Packers has to open its books. Unless ownership does that for a writer, you’re not going to hear about it or see it, really.

Honestly, the fact that Hobson, or myself in this case, has some of this information is … very, very rare. No other fan base, really, can complain about this knowledge because they don’t have it. Is it better to not know what they’re working with? Look at what Miami did today with all those restructures. Pretty much every NFL expert worth his salt said this was a disaster for the Dolphins in a year or two. But, they had to do it to get some space. The Bengals never have to do that stuff.


Now if MLJ and Iloka walk, I would want the Bengals to make a serious effort to replace at least one of them via FA. Preferably MLJ because Shawn Williams looks good and rookie WRs often take time to develop. Trevathan would be nice too, but that's a pipe dream. Btw...isn't it a little sad that a mid-tier FA like Trevathan is just a pipe dream for Bengals fans? Ugh.

Honestly, yes. You would think the team would sign a upper-middle tier difference maker occasionally. But I also covered the Packers for three years and this is the same lament their fan base has – and they’ve landed Charles Woodson and Julius Peppers in the last 10 years. But that’s it. Seriously. We know the names, but that’s literally it. So I guess they’ve signed two more upper-middle tier difference makers at that point (but they were in their 30s, no one wanted to sign them – only Ted saw that they had something left.)

I agree, it is awesome to have you on this board. My question is where you alluded to the practice squad counting towards the team salary. I understand the cap is based on a revolving 51 players only so these low paid guys would never count against the cap.
However, they would count against the cash spend of a team. Teams are required to spend a certain amount of money per the CBA and this includes all dollars spent.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but the top 51 salaries are used  to determine cap spend and all inclusive (all salaries, bonuses in any given year) for the team cash spend to insure each team spends their fair share.

Have you heard any word on who the coaches really like in the draft? Any positions?

And I saw on twitter that Dalton was endorsing Docston at his Pro Day, do you think that has any indication/influence on the Bengals draft room?

Finally, the Bengals are known to want to try and lock up their star players before their final season, any word about them talking to Zeitler, Eifert, or Gio?

Any word on what Hardison is doing this off season? Is he bulking up to be a full time DT or developing edge skills to be a DT/DE hybrid to replace Gilberry?

I know he is much bigger than Gilberry but I am petty sure there was talk of using him in that role last year.

Thanks, as always!

However, they would count against the cash spend of a team. Teams are required to spend a certain amount of money per the CBA and this includes all dollars spent.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but the top 51 salaries are used to determine cap spend and all inclusive (all salaries, bonuses in any given year) for the team cash spend to insure each team spends their fair share.

I should have clarified that. Yes, before the season begins the league counts the top 51 against the cap (the Bengals always work with 53 though – they don’t wait until week 1). The practice squad guys is how they determine their “true” money available in that they factor that spending into available cash. So yes, they don’t count against the NFLPA / NFL salary cap, but they count against the cash flowing out. Hope that helps?


Have you heard any word on who the coaches really like in the draft? Any positions?

Not really. They keep that stuff close to the vest and honestly, the way they approach their board is they go in with 24 names for that first round selection (and 55 for the second round and so on..). So let’s just say Myles Jack falls all the way down (like Ogbuehi last year) they’re jumping on that even if they don’t feel they needed a LB at that spot. When I was at the combine other team’s writers and even other pro personnel people really marveled at the Bengals ability to stick to their board /conviction and go best player available, which makes them somewhat unpredictable.

And I saw on twitter that Dalton was endorsing Docston at his Pro Day, do you think that has any indication/influence on the Bengals draft room?

I don’t think he has any, to be honest. But Tobin/Lewis/Brown clearly have a good relationship with Patterson at TCU and the kind of guys coming out of there. I’m sure they’d ask Andy if the kid could handle some things in terms of terminology (if it's similar at all), or maybe how he ran some routes…but they can see all that in tape.

Finally, the Bengals are known to want to try and lock up their star players before their final season, any word about them talking to Zeitler, Eifert, or Gio?

Eifert’s option getting picked up was a formality, of course. It would behoove the Bengals to want to lock him up this summer because the tight end market is exploding – but it would probably behoove him to wait til 2017 like A.J. Green after he puts up (potentially) another Pro Bowl season. As far as the others – yes, they will entertain those conversations. I think Gio and Hewitt would be the priorities of the group of FAs coming up at the end of 16.

Any word on what Hardison is doing this off season? Is he bulking up to be a full time DT or developing edge skills to be a DT/DE hybrid to replace Gilberry?

I’m not sure how Hardison has done this offseason, but you are exactly right on his role and how they view him. He’s what made Gilberry expendable. The knee injury during the year really set him back in terms of competing for a rotation spot last year and then at that point, they weren’t about to mess things up. He definitely will be competing with DeShawn William and any draft picks with Pat Sims to fill in for Domata and give Geno a breather. As far as DE, that’s wide open too – figure this is now or never for Clarke and Hunt (especially since they could draft one). Not sure Hardison fits that well out there, but

I am excited about adding Jim Haslett to our staff. Any word on what he thinks of our LB corps or what our LBs think of him?

I'm curious about your personal thoughts (or any interesting things you've heard) about this years draft class.

Any players you think are underrated or overrated? Do you have a favorite prospect, or do you not follow it as much?

Haslett: A lot of the guys met him for the first time on Monday, so it'll be a bit before they can answer anything real honestly on that end.

Draft: Honestly, Paul Dehner Jr. is the draftnik of the two of us. I pay enough attention to know what the Bengals need and who could fill that need, but that's about it. And considering the team has picked No. 24 each of the last two years, it's truly BPA. From what I know, there are no real surprises out there in terms of who the team likes if you've been reading Paul's mock drafts or listening to Lap on local radio. I don't have favorites, if you will.

I will say L.A. and Philadelphia are out of their minds for these deals, though.

Hey all - we get some downtime after the rookie camp this weekend - nothing doing at PBS until the first OTAs on May 24. I'll get on here after this weekend -- so get at me with any questions!!

Excellent!

It`ll be my first time asking, so here goes:

1. From all you`ve seen and experienced, who has the longer leash, Hunt or Clarke?
2. What is the consensus on who will be backup DE #1 at the start of the year; Hunt or Clarke?
3. Isn't Skyline Chili just awesome?
4. In your opinion, who is ahead of whom for DT: DeSean Williams or Hardison? We know Hardison's the draft pick, but they were quite high (it seemed) on Williams all year last year.
5. Warsaw or Krakow?