(03-14-2016, 10:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Where are you getting your stats?  Why won't you post them all?

The stats you posted asre not meaningless, but no one looks at them first when trying to see who the best CB in the league is.

PFF does a decent job of compiling objective stats, but their ranking system is suspect.

I'm getting my stats from PFF. I won't post them all because I can't post what I don't have. I picked up what I did post from like 3-4 different free articles on there that anyone can read since I don't have a subscription.

There's no massive conspiracy to hide some of the stats from you or anything, Fred. I do agree that their ranking system is suspect, I have always taken them with a grain of salt, but they're a decent comparison tool so long as you don't treat them as gospel. That said, the difference between a 80 and a 38 is greater than can be explained by "suspect rankings". It doesn't change the missed tackles, penalties, yards after the catch, zero INTs, and the fact he was indeed picked on as the vastly weakest link in the secondary and yet he's eating up $7.5m of cap in 2016.

(03-13-2016, 02:52 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Because no one cares. 
Just like no one cared when Andre was a top 10 OT in the NFL for a 2 year run. 

We are in mob-mentality territory now. 
There's no changing it. 

Myself I though in the second half of the season he took better angles to the ball carriers and cleaned up his tackling alot. He still needs to work on his eye discipline but all in all he looked like a starting corner.

(03-13-2016, 10:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: None of this is true at all.

if dre was garbage then opposing QBs woiuld have targeted him all the time and gotten a lot of long completions and tds.  Or else they would have just marched down the field with a string of completions to the guy Dre wascovering.  This just did not happen.

Pitt, Game 1.....Pig Pen abuses Dre on the opening drive, targeting Dre with Antonio Brown, cram it down our throat for an opening drive TD.  Next series, Pacman Jones is moved on Brown, and AB disappears.....I guess the Stoolers and Pig Pen know something the rest of the league doesn't.   

He's "meh".....and not worth 7.5/per.

(03-14-2016, 01:41 PM)Synric Wrote: Myself I though in the second half of the season he took better angles to the ball carriers and cleaned up his tackling alot. He still needs to work on his eye discipline but all in all he looked like a starting corner.

He was a risky pick because he never had to back peddle at Bama. 
It's taken time but there's a foundation there. It's enough that you don't have to feel rushed into drafting a CB. They should offer a 2-3 year deal at about half the yearly rate. 

(03-14-2016, 01:47 PM)Wyche Wrote: Pitt, Game 1.....Pig Pen abuses Dre on the opening drive, targeting Dre with Antonio Brown, cram it down our throat for an opening drive TD.  Next series, Pacman Jones is moved on Brown, and AB disappears.....I guess the Stoolers and Pig Pen know something the rest of the league doesn't.   

He's "meh".....and not worth 7.5/per.

If you want the list of DBs Brown has abused....that's a long list.

Using a top 5 WR in the NFL to explain why a DB is bad, is not sound practice. 

Just saying, pick a different WR. 

(03-14-2016, 03:23 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: If you want the list of DBs Brown has abused....that's a long list.

Using a top 5 WR in the NFL to explain why a DB is bad, is not sound practice. 

Just saying, pick a different WR. 

He didn't bring it up because it was Brown, it brought it up because it was an instance where they specifically targeted Kirkpatrick until the Bengals had to specifically scheme to keep him away from the action.

(03-14-2016, 04:45 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: He didn't bring it up because it was Brown, it brought it up because it was an instance where they specifically targeted Kirkpatrick until the Bengals had to specifically scheme to keep him away from the action.

Teams do this all the time with Antonio Brown. It's a shitty situation to use. Brown can make a good CB look bad any given game or snap. 
He put up 16 receptions, 189 yards and 2 TD on Denver. 

It happens. 

There are games where good CBs get pulled from a WR match up. 

This is not the hill to die on in regards to Dre. 

(03-14-2016, 04:45 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: He didn't bring it up because it was Brown, it brought it up because it was an instance where they specifically targeted Kirkpatrick until the Bengals had to specifically scheme to keep him away from the action.

Martavis Bryant averaged 69.5 receiving yards per game (765 in 11 games) and Markus Wheaton averaged 46.8 (749 in 16).  And combined they averaged 16.1 yards per catch (94 for 1514) and scored 11 tds.

That game against the Bengals they combined to catch only 5 passes on 11 targets (45.4%) for 54 yards (10.8 avg) and zero tds.

I think he is a OK to good CB. Not sure he has earned an extension but depending on how he plays this season should determine if we are to bring him back.

(03-14-2016, 07:02 PM)J24 Wrote: I think he is a OK to good CB. Not sure he has earned an extension but depending on how he plays this season should determine if we are to bring him back.

In the modern era, you can't afford to have a slew of great CBs if they aren't all on rookie deals. You need your OK players matter. If they can extend him for less money than he gets now, they should. 

if you let him go, now you create a new hole at CB in 2017. Assuming Pacman's fountain of youth keeps up you still need another CB now given Dennard's lack of playing time. 
It's a viscious cycle that keeps us drafting CBs and letting the well run dry at other spots. 

A generally mediocre CB got 12.5 million per year this offseason....yeah...

(03-14-2016, 03:17 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: He was a risky pick because he never had to back peddle at Bama. 
It's taken time but there's a foundation there. It's enough that you don't have to feel rushed into drafting a CB. They should offer a 2-3 year deal at about half the yearly rate. 

He never really played the QB at Alabama either.

(03-14-2016, 03:23 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: If you want the list of DBs Brown has abused....that's a long list.

Using a top 5 WR in the NFL to explain why a DB is bad, is not sound practice. 

Just saying, pick a different WR. 

Yeah.....but he made it look like they were playing catch in the backyard.  I mean....it was a CLINIC.  Not your run of the mill burn.....what'd they score in....less than 2 minutes?  He looked worse than Rey Hockaloogie on Owen Daniel.

Now, which other receiver would you like?

(03-14-2016, 04:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Martavis Bryant averaged 69.5 receiving yards per game (765 in 11 games) and Markus Wheaton averaged 46.8 (749 in 16).  And combined they averaged 16.1 yards per catch (94 for 1514) and scored 11 tds.

That game against the Bengals they combined to catch only 5 passes on 11 targets (45.4%) for 54 yards (10.8 avg) and zero tds.

Yep, arguably the best tandem on the back end in the league (including the league leader in picks), an All Pro caliber CB opposite him, and a serviceable one time All Pro caliber CB in the slot.....and a few decent youngsters in reserve.  Dre is THE weakness in the secondary.  Is he God awful?  Almost, but not quite.....he sure as shit isn't worth 7.5 mil.....No. Way.  

And yes Leonard....I used that example to show the switch off that someone said the Bengals never do....and the targeting that "doesn't happen".

(03-14-2016, 11:00 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yeah.....but he made it look like they were playing catch in the backyard.  I mean....it was a CLINIC.  Not your run of the mill burn.....what'd they score in....less than 2 minutes?  He looked worse than Rey Hockaloogie on Owen Daniel.

Now, which other receiver would you like?

It wasn't that bad. When Ben is healthy and AB is, it's almost always a clinic. Only bad football people think that doesn't ever happen but that's just a bad example. AB does that to a lot of people. 

It's about matchups. A tall lanky CB like Dre is naturally going to struggle with a guy like Brown. 
A shorter quicker CB like Pacman won't. 
Dre does a damn fine job on the other 2 WR. Bryant ain't no slouch. 

(03-14-2016, 11:06 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yep, arguably the best tandem on the back end in the league (including the league leader in picks), an All Pro caliber CB opposite him, and a serviceable one time All Pro caliber CB in the slot.....and a few decent youngsters in reserve.  Dre is THE weakness in the secondary.  Is he God awful?  Almost, but not quite.....he sure as shit isn't worth 7.5 mil.....No. Way.  

And yes Leonard....I used that example to show the switch off that someone said the Bengals never do....and the targeting that "doesn't happen".

If Dre is the weak spot but Leon is servicable...IDK man...Leon got roasted bad against Pittsburgh the last two years. Luckily he gets hidden in the slot or allowed to cover a TE. He got abused on the fatal drive you brought up by Brown out of the slot. At this stage both qualify as serviceable. 

Leon played 61% of snaps.
Dre played 95% of snaps. 

I haven't actually seen anyone (sane) say he is. 

(03-14-2016, 11:47 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: It wasn't that bad. When Ben is healthy and AB is, it's almost always a clinic. Only bad football people think that doesn't ever happen but that's just a bad example. AB does that to a lot of people. 

It's about matchups. A tall lanky CB like Dre is naturally going to struggle with a guy like Brown. 
A shorter quicker CB like Pacman won't. 
Dre does a damn fine job on the other 2 WR. Bryant ain't no slouch. 


If Dre is the weak spot but Leon is servicable...IDK man...Leon got roasted bad against Pittsburgh the last two years. Luckily he gets hidden in the slot or allowed to cover a TE. He got abused on the fatal drive you brought up by Brown out of the slot. At this stage both qualify as serviceable. 

Leon played 61% of snaps.
Dre played 95% of snaps. 

I haven't actually seen anyone (sane) say he is. 

Apparently the FO isn't sane......Leon is serviceable, and he's been injured and old.  He's got an excuse.

(03-15-2016, 12:13 AM)Wyche Wrote: Apparently the FO isn't sane......Leon is serviceable, and he's been injured and old.  He's got an excuse.

Dre was largely injured during the time he should have developed....but that doesn't count...

They really didn't have a choice. It was the 5th year option.
It was that or lose him to FA. 
Lose him to FA and you instantly create a new need on this team. 



Keep in mind JANORIS JENKINS got 12.5 million from the Giants....
at 7.5, that isn't TERRIBLE anymore apparently. 

(03-15-2016, 01:10 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Dre was largely injured during the time he should have developed....but that doesn't count...

They really didn't have a choice. It was the 5th year option.
It was that or lose him to FA. 
Lose him to FA and you instantly create a new need on this team. 



Keep in mind JANORIS JENKINS got 12.5 million from the Giants....
at 7.5, that isn't TERRIBLE anymore apparently. 

A medley of minor injuries doesn't really equate to two torn achilles (that nobody else in NFL history has come back from, with Suggs attempting it this offseason). It's an unquestionable fact that those major injuries are the reason Hall has lost two steps. The same can't be said for Kirkpatrick. He's only missed 2 games out of the last 3 years. He's still not developed. This argument might have more merit if he was coming off his second year, but he's coming off his fourth year, man.

(03-15-2016, 01:10 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Dre was largely injured during the time he should have developed....but that doesn't count...

They really didn't have a choice. It was the 5th year option.
It was that or lose him to FA. 
Lose him to FA and you instantly create a new need on this team. 



Keep in mind JANORIS JENKINS got 12.5 million from the Giants....
at 7.5, that isn't TERRIBLE anymore apparently. 

This is true.....just hate to tie up that kind of money in him.  Oh well, is what it is.

(03-15-2016, 11:45 AM)Wyche Wrote: This is true.....just hate to tie up that kind of money in him.  Oh well, is what it is.

Honestly, he is a serviceable corner.  Is he, or will he probably ever be, a superstar?  No.  That said, he does fill a need.  Why not get an extension done now and save some cap space that could be used for other purposes this year?  $7.5 million is much to high for Dre Kirkpatrick, it just is... between he and Zeitler, they could free up a decent amount of money that could be used towards other needs.

(03-15-2016, 11:45 AM)Wyche Wrote: This is true.....just hate to tie up that kind of money in him.  Oh well, is what it is.

That kind of money is generally what you are going to accept with a DB now apparently.