(03-21-2016, 12:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Penalties are a stupid way to judge CBs.  Dre only had one more penalty than Aqib Talib who is considered one of the better CBs in the league.  This is a classic case of cherry picking esoteric stats to support an opinion.

And his 16 PDs rank 11th in the league.  So i don't know how that is a negative.

- Read the link I posted for you a page back. this is now the 2nd freaking time I have had to correct you on it. Talib had 9 penalties for 80 yards to Dre's 13 for 118. 

- Penalties on a CB are incredibly relevant. Not only can it show them getting beat (thus the penalty) but virtually every penalty a CB gets =  a first down.

- You brushing aside a guy having a penalty problem and being a league leader in a negative stat is amazing.

- I'm not cherry picking any stat, Fred. I have lots of Dre K stats to post and have repeatedly. You know how many Dre K stats you have come up with in your research on the subject (clearly you've done none or you wouldn't be defending him)? You have originated ZERO and just repeated my 16 pass breakups.

And 16 pass breakups is good! But, Dre K was also one of the most targeted CBs in the league (because he sucks and the league knows it) so I would expect him to make some plays with so many chances. Just NO INTs, though, right?

(03-21-2016, 12:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: PFF has some good individual stats but thier ranking systemis a joke

There are 2 CBs on a team.  Starter "A" plays most of the time because he does not mess up as often as his back up "B".  A messes up once every 10 plays while B messes up once every 6 plays.  Player A plays 70 snaps and messes up 7 times.  In the same game player B plays 30 snaps and messes up 5 times.  You know which player PFF says is the best CB?  Player B who played fewer snaps and messed up more often.


PLus a CB who covers his receiver so well that the CB does not throw at him gets a "zero" for that play.

Again, an excuse, and a silly one. Is Dre K the ONLY CB negatively impacted by this? NOOOOOOOOOOO.

(03-21-2016, 01:14 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Again, an excuse, and a silly one. Is Dre K the ONLY CB negatively impacted by this? NOOOOOOOOOOO.

I don't think you understood what you just read.

The ranking system is garbage no mattre how many CBs are effected by it.  But clearly since Dre played almost 100% of the snaps for the Bengals that is a lot more than many of the guys infront of him.  It is possible that the guys in front of him actually screw up more often than Dre, but are still ranked ahead of him because of the flaw in the ranking system.

(03-21-2016, 01:13 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - Read the link I posted for you a page back. this is now the 2nd freaking time I have had to correct you on it. Talib had 9 penalties for 80 yards to Dre's 13 for 118. 

No he didn't

http://www.nflpenalties.com/position/defensive-back/cornerback?year=2015

Kirkpatrick had 13 for 118 and Talib had 12 for 101.

What is your source?

(03-21-2016, 01:04 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I'm just helping troll it along so it doesn't die.

And you are clearly doing the same thing here.

(03-21-2016, 01:13 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - Penalties on a CB are incredibly relevant. Not only can it show them getting beat (thus the penalty) but virtually every penalty a CB gets =  a first down.

Interesting theory.

How do you explain the fact that 5 of the top 8 CBs in penalties were Pro Bowl picks, and 2 of them were First Team All Pro.  Seems to me that a high number of penalties indicates that a CB is among the very best at his position in the leagu.
 
http://www.nflpenalties.com/position/defensive-back/cornerback?year=2015


2nd Aquib Talib....Pro Bowl last 3 straight years
5th Richard Sherman...First Team All Pro 3 times.  Pro Bowl last 4 straight years.
5th Marcus Peters....Pro Bowl this year.
7th Josh Norman.... First Team All Pro this year
7th Vontae Davis... Pro Bowl last two years

(03-21-2016, 02:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Interesting theory.

How do you explain the fact that 5 of the top 8 CBs in penalties were Pro Bowl picks, and 2 of them were First Team All Pro.  Seems to me that a high number of penalties indicates that a CB is among the very best at his position in the leagu.
 
http://www.nflpenalties.com/position/defensive-back/cornerback?year=2015


2nd Aquib Talib....Pro Bowl last 3 straight years
5th Richard Sherman...First Team All Pro 3 times.  Pro Bowl last 4 straight years.
5th Marcus Peters....Pro Bowl this year.
7th Josh Norman.... First Team All Pro this year
7th Vontae Davis... Pro Bowl last two years

The link you are going to is showing their PLAYOFF games as well. The link I provided showed regular season. Not really fair to go into the playoffs because different guys have a different amount of games.


http://www.footballdb.com/stats/penalties-player.html

Fred,

I know I bust your balls hard on here sometimes, but whether I agree or disagree I always respect what you say and respect the links or stats you bring up enough to investigate them myself thoroughly and thoughtfully rather than combatively. I'm interested in getting right rather than just being right.

(03-21-2016, 10:03 PM)PDub80 Wrote: The link you are going to is showing their PLAYOFF games as well. The link I provided showed regular season. Not really fair to go into the playoffs because different guys have a different amount of games.


http://www.footballdb.com/stats/penalties-player.html

Fred,

I know I bust your balls hard on here sometimes, but whether I agree or disagree I always respect what you say and respect the links or stats you bring up enough to investigate them myself thoroughly and thoughtfully rather than combatively. I'm interested in getting right rather than just being right.

Doesn't really change anything.  The best CBs in the league like Talib, Sherman, Peters, Davis, and Norman are all still among the most penalized CBs in the league.

So I don't see how you can use penalties to show that Dre is a bad CB.

3/22 and Talib has still not been suspended. smh

carry on

I am in the minority here, but I think you keep him for a couple more years. I think at least we are seeing( myself anyways) progress. That combined with the fact that the price wouldn't be steep, I say get it done.

Don't know how people are evaluating dennard. Hasn't been on the field enough, but with watching a lot of him in college, and the very limited play last year, I think he's at least has the potential to be a #1 corner for us. If he lives up to it, all depends on Dennard himself