(04-03-2016, 12:18 AM)bfine32 Wrote: There was this one guy that wore 85

I'm not talking about players who were successful and went to NE, I am talking about players who were successful in NE and then went somewhere else and were still successful. Even Fred understood what I was talking about Bfine, so you have no excuse! Lol 

It just seems like not very many productive pass catchers leave NE and are still productive. Like you look at Denver, and they had Marshall and Decker. San Diego had Vincent Jackson. Minnesota had Randy Moss. The 49ers had Owens and Rice. Panthers had Steve Smith. Those are just a couple off the top of my head.

I can't really put my finger on one for the Patriots. Maybe because I haven't followed them super closely or cared about their roster a ton, but yeah.

(04-02-2016, 07:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: One thing I forgot to mention in the OP: He was asked about the RT job and he answered  like it was not even a question; Ced will be our starting RT next year.

I think they knew that when they drafted him. 

(04-03-2016, 12:40 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I'm not talking about players who were successful and went to NE, I am talking about players who were successful in NE and then went somewhere else and were still successful. Even Fred understood what I was talking about Bfine, so you have no excuse! Lol 

It just seems like not very many productive pass catchers leave NE and are still productive. Like you look at Denver, and they had Marshall and Decker. San Diego had Vincent Jackson. Minnesota had Randy Moss. The 49ers had Owens and Rice. Panthers had Steve Smith. Those are just a couple off the top of my head.

I can't really put my finger on one for the Patriots. Maybe because I haven't followed them super closely or cared about their roster a ton, but yeah.

Welker was decent for Denver when he wasn't getting his head knocked off.

(04-03-2016, 12:40 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It just seems like not very many productive pass catchers leave NE and are still productive.

I think you are really stretching on this one.

You honestly think Randy Moss was only good when Brady was throwing to him?

Brandon Lloyd was much better in Denver than he was in New England.

David Patten was as good in New Orleasn as he was with the Patriots.

Amendola was better with the Rams than he has been with the Patriots.

(04-02-2016, 11:06 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote:  Sure he had bigger numbers, but that was because he was forcefed the ball. He also was among league lead in drops. So I would argue he didn't actually get better.

No.  You are wrong.  he was more effective with the Redskins and Broncos.  All you have to do is look at yards per target.  That eliminates the issue of them throwing to him more often

With the Patriots he averaged 7.8 yards per target.

With the Broncos it was 8.1 and with the redskins it was 8.3.  And that is even more impressive when you figure that as the #1 receiver he received more double teams with the Broncos and Redskins.

(04-02-2016, 04:52 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Isn't this the same logic that would have stopped the Bengals from taking Eifert? The Bengals had Gresham and had never really utilized a 2 TE system in the passing game. Yet, they took him even with Gresham, a former 1st rounder who still had two years left on his deal. It was for depth at a position where some people thought the Bengals were well off and "good enough". Yet.... Eifert is MUCH better. Clearly nobody would change that pick if they could go back except for the teams in front of the Bengals.

This is the LAST year on Gio's rookie deal and Hill will have 1 more year left after this season. Hill's production took a nose dive last season.... which is why you combined the season totals.


It isn't THAT illogical. The Bengals are STACKED DEEP all over the roster with good contracts all over the field. NFL.com has Elliot as the 4th highest rated guy on their big board out of all players. THAT would be the best talent they could take and would also give them room to wiggle in a trade or free up contract $ in the future by letting a RB go.

Makes perfect sense.

It's not the same logic at all because Gresham only eclipsed 500 yards twice and wasn't reliable. It wasn't like people talked about Grehsam being the next best at his position.

In 2015 Hill tied for the most rushing TDs with Peterson, Freeman, and Williams. Hill also had the 2nd most rushing TDs within the 10 yard line in the league. Hill had more rushing yards than Morris, Lacy, Anderson, Ingram, Murray.

We're not stacked deep all over the roster. Behind Green we have LaFell and Tate. That's not stacked.
What about defensive end? You have Johnson and Dunlap, after that who steps up? Hunt and Clarke have done nothing.
Defensive tackle, we re-signed two players that contributed nothing and get love on the board but honestly do nothing on the field.

On running back we're stacked. We have Hill and Gio. Then have Peerman as a special teams ace and Burkhead who does enough to stay on the team and contribute.

We don't need Zeke on this team.

Oh, and NFL.com had Trent Richardson as the 3rd best player. CBS had him as 4th.

We have no reason to draft Zeke. You don't give up on a player who got 20 rushing TDs in two years. Oh, and that's ranked #1 in the NFL the past two years.

(04-03-2016, 03:12 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: It's not the same logic at all because Gresham only eclipsed 500 yards twice and wasn't reliable. It wasn't like people talked about Grehsam being the next best at his position.

In 2015 Hill tied for the most rushing TDs with Peterson, Freeman, and Williams. Hill also had the 2nd most rushing TDs within the 10 yard line in the league. Hill had more rushing yards than Morris, Lacy, Anderson, Ingram, Murray.

We're not stacked deep all over the roster. Behind Green we have LaFell and Tate. That's not stacked.
What about defensive end? You have Johnson and Dunlap, after that who steps up? Hunt and Clarke have done nothing.
Defensive tackle, we re-signed two players that contributed nothing and get love on the board but honestly do nothing on the field.

On running back we're stacked. We have Hill and Gio. Then have Peerman as a special teams ace and Burkhead who does enough to stay on the team and contribute.

We don't need Zeke on this team.

Oh, and NFL.com had Trent Richardson as the 3rd best player. CBS had him as 4th.

We have no reason to draft Zeke. You don't give up on a player who got 20 rushing TDs in two years. Oh, and that's ranked #1 in the NFL the past two years.

Hill was pretty aweful last year. Hill had a lot of TDs, but that's only because Hue loved to run the ball inside of the 10.

Hill looked nothing like he did his rookie year. It seemed like he was a lot worse at breaking tackles and he didn't have as good of vision. Personally I'm hoping he just had a nagging injury all last year, and his poor production was a fluke.

I don't think we should draft Zeke, but let's not pretend that Hill was anything special last year.

Elliott will play in the NFL and probably do well, but I doubt he'll have the eye popping numbers he had at OSU simply because college ain't the pros. The worse pro team is still better than the best college teams. If he falls to us should we take him? Sure. Why not? It's not as if running backs never get injured. It's the one position that is feast or famine moreso than any other position I can think of. Any player can become a bust, but not just any player can be the difference maker in championship games. If Elliott can bring just half of his college production to the NFL he'll be the number one fantasy RB..not that fantasy numbers mean didly squat..
If Elliott falls to 24 in the draft I'd be worried that Sarah Palin would be elected to the presidency as a write-in candidate..

(04-03-2016, 08:05 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Hill was pretty aweful last year. Hill had a lot of TDs, but that's only because Hue loved to run the ball inside of the 10.

Hill looked nothing like he did his rookie year. It seemed like he was a lot worse at breaking tackles and he didn't have as good of vision. Personally I'm hoping he just had a nagging injury all last year, and his poor production was a fluke.

I don't think we should draft Zeke, but let's not pretend that Hill was anything special last year.

Didn't know leading the league in TDs was awful. It doesn't matter if Hue loved to run the ball within the 10 yard line, so did numerous teams. But Hill got it done since he ranked 2nd in TDs scored within the 10 yard line.

Hill had a down year, but to say it was awful is ludicrous honestly. Yes, he displayed some bad vision, which was his struggle in college, but you don't give up on a highly productive player after 2 years. There's going to be growing pains in the NFL. Look at Dalton, look at Lacy, look at Martin.

Not pretending, Hill had a down year but was still very productive in some aspects. The guy only started 23 games and has over 1,900 rushing yards and 20 TDs with a YPC average of 4.3. He's doing just fine, growing pains happen. It happened to Gio in 2014 and he came up big for us quite a few times. Much bigger improvement in 2015.

(04-03-2016, 03:12 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: In 2015 Hill tied for the most rushing TDs with Peterson, Freeman, and Williams. Hill also had the 2nd most rushing TDs within the 10 yard line in the league. Hill had more rushing yards than Morris, Lacy, Anderson, Ingram, Murray.

Oh, and NFL.com had Trent Richardson as the 3rd best player. CBS had him as 4th.

We have no reason to draft Zeke. You don't give up on a player who got 20 rushing TDs in two years. Oh, and that's ranked #1 in the NFL the past two years.

This might be one of the more unintentionally funny posts I have seen in awhile. Warning about the perils of Trent Richardson while still praising Hill's 2015 TDs.

Trent Richardson 2012: 950 rushing yards (3.6 YPC), 11 TD ... 51 catches/367 receiving yards (7.2 AVG), 1 TD ... 3 Fumbles, 0 Lost
Jeremy Hill 2015: 794 rushing yards (3.6 YPC), 11 TD ... 15 catches/79 yards (5.3 AVG), 1 TD ... 3 Fumbles, 3 Lost

Hill's 2015 was seriously just a lesser version of Richardson's rookie year, yet you're praising Hill for having 11 TDs and using Richardson (who had the same amount of TDs) as a warning away from Ezekiel. As I said, pretty funny stuff.  

- - - - - - - -
EDIT:

That aside, TDs alone don't make someone a great RB.. otherwise some of the best RBs would be:
Mike Tolbert ... 19 ('10-'11)
Marion Barber III ... 24 ('06-'07)
BJGE ... 24 ('10-'11)
Stevan Ridley ... 19 ('12-'13)
Rashard Mendenhall ... 22 ('10-'11)

(04-02-2016, 03:20 PM)BigRed75 Wrote: Zeke will not translate to the NFL...book it.  He is a byproduct of a scheme and deception and is not very good at catching the ball out of the backfield. If they take him with one of Fuller, Coleman or Doctson on the board I would be pissed!

I'm guessing you did not watch Zeke play with a statement like this.  He is a very talented and well rounded player that I think will have a great career.  Not that he will be there at 24, but if he was I would not be upset if we took him.  I think he would be an upgrade at the position.  Again, it won't matter because he will not be there. 

(04-03-2016, 02:37 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: This might be one of the more unintentionally funny posts I have seen in awhile. Warning about the perils of Trent Richardson while still praising Hill's 2015 TDs.

Trent Richardson 2012: 950 rushing yards (3.6 YPC), 11 TD ... 51 catches/367 receiving yards (7.2 AVG), 1 TD ... 3 Fumbles, 0 Lost
Jeremy Hill 2015: 794 rushing yards (3.6 YPC), 11 TD ... 15 catches/79 yards (5.3 AVG), 1 TD ... 3 Fumbles, 3 Lost

Hill's 2015 was seriously just a lesser version of Richardson's rookie year, yet you're praising Hill for having 11 TDs and using Richardson (who had the same amount of TDs) as a warning away from Ezekiel. As I said, pretty funny stuff.  

This might be one of the more unintentionally funny posts I have seen in awhile.  Cherry picking stats to try and make it look like Richardson is in the same class as Hill.

Richardson in 3 years...2023 yds....3.3 avg....17 td
Hill in 2 years..............1918 yds.....4.3 avg....20 td

Funny stuff 

(04-03-2016, 03:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This might be one of the more unintentionally funny posts I have seen in awhile.  Cherry picking stats to try and make it look like Richardson is in the same class as Hill.

Richardson in 3 years...2023 yds....3.3 avg....17 td
Hill in 2 years..............1918 yds.....4.3 avg....20 td

Funny stuff 

Wolf started with the cherry picking stats and combining years while turning a blind eye to other stats that are more or equally important. He did that on top of throwing out ONE draft pick that was rated highly who flopped as a reason to NEVER take a highly rated prospect. Because that was the only logic presented there.

(04-03-2016, 03:20 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Wolf started with the cherry picking stats and combining years while turning a blind eye to other stats that are more or equally important. He did that on top of throwing out ONE draft pick that was rated highly who flopped as a reason to NEVER take a highly rated prospect. Because that was the only logic presented there.

No it wasn't.  Wolf used the exact same logic everyone else here is using when saying we should not use our first pick on a RB.  We have much bigger holes elsewhere on our roster.

I think Zeke is a great prospect.  But I don't want us to take him in the first round because we already have two very good RBs while we need players elsewhere (DT, DE, WR).

(04-03-2016, 02:37 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: This might be one of the more unintentionally funny posts I have seen in awhile. Warning about the perils of Trent Richardson while still praising Hill's 2015 TDs.

Trent Richardson 2012: 950 rushing yards (3.6 YPC), 11 TD ... 51 catches/367 receiving yards (7.2 AVG), 1 TD ... 3 Fumbles, 0 Lost
Jeremy Hill 2015: 794 rushing yards (3.6 YPC), 11 TD ... 15 catches/79 yards (5.3 AVG), 1 TD ... 3 Fumbles, 3 Lost

Hill's 2015 was seriously just a lesser version of Richardson's rookie year, yet you're praising Hill for having 11 TDs and using Richardson (who had the same amount of TDs) as a warning away from Ezekiel. As I said, pretty funny stuff.  

- - - - - - - -
EDIT:

That aside, TDs alone don't make someone a great RB.. otherwise some of the best RBs would be:
Mike Tolbert ... 19 ('10-'11)
Marion Barber III ... 24 ('06-'07)
BJGE ... 24 ('10-'11)
Stevan Ridley ... 19 ('12-'13)
Rashard Mendenhall ... 22 ('10-'11)

Warning of the perils of Richardson had to do with Zeke, not Hill. Going off of draft status. People have talked about Richardson being the best RB since Peterson. They're doing the same with Zeke.

Richardson actually had a decent rookie year. It's what came after where the bad started.

None of those players led the league in total TDs in those two year periods.
You named numerous for 10-11, but Foster, Peterson, and McCoy all had 24 as well. BJGE did well, there's no denying that with New England.
LT had more TDs than Barber in that time period. Barber wasn't a bad RB either.

So you're telling me that Hill, who has done pretty well for a 2 year player, is pretty awful because of last season?

(04-03-2016, 03:20 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Wolf started with the cherry picking stats and combining years while turning a blind eye to other stats that are more or equally important. He did that on top of throwing out ONE draft pick that was rated highly who flopped as a reason to NEVER take a highly rated prospect. Because that was the only logic presented there.

What stats am I turning a blind eye to? He ranked 18th in the NFL in rushing, but still had more yards than Murray, Lacy, and Ingram. Averaged 3.6 yards last season. Fumbled 3 times. Still doesn't erase the fact that he had over 1,900 total rushing yards and 20 TDs his first two seasons and only started 23 games. You don't give up on a guy with talent.

No, I did a comparison on the last guy that was said to be the next best RB prospect since Peterson. And then showed you that we aren't as stacked on the roster as you led to believe. And you're putting words in my mouth, so quit trying. I like Zeke, but there's no reason to take him.

Zeke doesn't make us a better contender than what we are now. We have RB depth. We don't have DT depth. We don't have CB depth. We don't have S depth. We don't have DE depth in any pass rush situation outside of Dunlap.

Zeke goes out, we have Hill and Gio.
Green goes out, we have LaFell and Tate.
Atkins goes out we have Thompson and Sims.
Dunlap or MJ goes out, we have Hunt or Clarke
Iloka or Williams goes out, we have Smith.

So if Hill goes out, we have Gio and Peerman, possibly Burkhead as well.

See the difference? Or is that too "cherry picky" for you?

If the team is going BPA in the first and it's not a WR or CB, I expect it to be DL. This DL class is crazy deep. There is a clear need for a future stud DT next to Atkins, as Peko is entering a contract year, is aging, and there's room for improvement at that spot regardless. Even though MJ90 is signed through 2018, there are many (at least around here) that believe he could be upgraded. A big factor could be how the team decides to use Marcus Hardison. Do they make him a full-time DT or have him be more of a DE/DT hybrid like he was in college and take over Gilberry's role?

We've been talking about replacing Peko for years. Hard to believe, but soon (not this year) it will be time to have that talk about Atkins himself.

He did just turn 28.

(04-04-2016, 11:34 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We've been talking about replacing Peko for years. Hard to believe, but soon (not this year) it will be time to have that talk about Atkins himself.

He did just turn 28.

Atkins is one of the untouchables on this board, don't you even start now!

(04-04-2016, 11:34 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We've been talking about replacing Peko for years. Hard to believe, but soon (not this year) it will be time to have that talk about Atkins himself.

He did just turn 28.

Lalalalalala can't hear you! Lalalalala