(04-21-2016, 08:00 PM)Beaker Wrote: None. Those don't happen w/o the fumble.

IMO

Jones doesn't get a penalty if Burflict doesn't get a penalty. And neither gets a penalty if Hill just holds onto the rock deep in the Steeler red zone. And we fans get the first Bengal playoff win in 26+ ***** years. 

 

(04-21-2016, 08:04 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: IMO

Jones doesn't get a penalty if Burflict doesn't get a penalty. And neither gets a penalty if Hill just holds onto the rock deep in the Steeler red zone. And we fans get the first Bengal playoff win in 26+ ***** years. 

 

It really comes down to when Hill lost that football... a big damn shit cloud formed over the stadium and Burfict/Jones got caught up in the high shit winds.

"Shit Storm Front Ruins Bengals Playoff Win" should have been the headline after that game.

I'll drink to that...

(04-21-2016, 08:00 PM)Beaker Wrote: None. Those don't happen w/o the fumble.

Yea, but the fumble doesn't happen if we get a first round bye by beating the Cardinals which happens if Dalton doesn't audible into a pass and then blow it. You can trace things back far enough to make it anyone's fault.

Like it or not, Burfict and Jones got the penalties that set up the game winning field goal and lost the game. That's not absolving Hill of his fumble, but they shouldn't be absolved either. It's fine if you like Burfict and Jones more and just don't want to put any blame on them because of that, but the fumble happened. You can make up all the ifs, ands, and buts that you want to, but it did happen. So many people use the "if the fumble didn't happen" line. Unfortunately this is real life and not fantasy land. All 3 players made mistakes that directly lost the game.

It's not like I'm some huge Hill defender, but it's ridiculous that everyone wants to blame the actions of others on him. Hill did not cause Burfict or Jones to draw their penalties. Those 2 should've played smarter and kept their heads in the game. Burfict has built his reputation and had to know he was going to get flagged. Didn't care. Took an unnecessary shot on Brown. Jones has people talking shit to him all of the time. No excuse for him to lose his cool.

Burfict has definitely reached AJ Green status on these boards. No one can ever speak ill of him without being flipped out on. If AJ or Burfict make a mistake it's Andy's fault, Hill's fault, the official's fault, the grand conspiracy against the Bengals fault, anyone and everyone's fault but theirs. It's okay to hold them responsible for their mistakes as well. It doesn't make you less of a fan and they're not going to find out and pull you fan card.

The one thing taken away from the playoff loss is that a lot of guys were acting like big dummies.

I have yet to go back and watch it again.

Unless I'm mistaken Hill was one of several that were carrying on like fools throughout the game.

Selfishness and mistakes were had by more than just Jeremy.

It's just easier to blame Hill because of his individual basic achievement at his position resulted in faliure.

Much like Nugent missing the FG against the Panthers to ice the game a while back.

It's much easier to blame someone who doesn't "do the one job" than criticize players that had Ref judgements that affect the outcome.

(04-22-2016, 09:41 AM)muskiesfan Wrote: Like it or not, Burfict and Jones got the penalties that set up the game winning field goal and lost the game. That's not absolving Hill of his fumble, but they shouldn't be absolved either. It's fine if you like Burfict and Jones more and just don't want to put any blame on them because of that, but the fumble happened. You can make up all the ifs, ands, and buts that you want to, but it did happen. So many people use the "if the fumble didn't happen" line. Unfortunately this is real life and not fantasy land. All 3 players made mistakes that directly lost the game.

It's not like I'm some huge Hill defender, but it's ridiculous that everyone wants to blame the actions of others on him. Hill did not cause Burfict or Jones to draw their penalties. Those 2 should've played smarter and kept their heads in the game. Burfict has built his reputation and had to know he was going to get flagged. Didn't care. Took an unnecessary shot on Brown. Jones has people talking shit to him all of the time. No excuse for him to lose his cool.

Burfict has definitely reached AJ Green status on these boards. No one can ever speak ill of him without being flipped out on. If AJ or Burfict make a mistake it's Andy's fault, Hill's fault, the official's fault, the grand conspiracy against the Bengals fault, anyone and everyone's fault but theirs. It's okay to hold them responsible for their mistakes as well. It doesn't make you less of a fan and they're not going to find out and pull you fan card.

(04-22-2016, 09:41 AM)muskiesfan Wrote: Like it or not, Burfict and Jones got the penalties that set up the game winning field goal and lost the game. That's not absolving Hill of his fumble, but they shouldn't be absolved either. It's fine if you like Burfict and Jones more and just don't want to put any blame on them because of that, but the fumble happened. You can make up all the ifs, ands, and buts that you want to, but it did happen. So many people use the "if the fumble didn't happen" line. Unfortunately this is real life and not fantasy land. All 3 players made mistakes that directly lost the game.

It's not like I'm some huge Hill defender, but it's ridiculous that everyone wants to blame the actions of others on him. Hill did not cause Burfict or Jones to draw their penalties. Those 2 should've played smarter and kept their heads in the game. Burfict has built his reputation and had to know he was going to get flagged. Didn't care. Took an unnecessary shot on Brown. Jones has people talking shit to him all of the time. No excuse for him to lose his cool.

Burfict has definitely reached AJ Green status on these boards. No one can ever speak ill of him without being flipped out on. If AJ or Burfict make a mistake it's Andy's fault, Hill's fault, the official's fault, the grand conspiracy against the Bengals fault, anyone and everyone's fault but theirs. It's okay to hold them responsible for their mistakes as well. It doesn't make you less of a fan and they're not going to find out and pull you fan card.

Terrific post.

All 3 players had extremely costly mistakes that played a part in the loss. All 3 deserve blame and hopefully, they won't repeat the same mistakes if they find themselves in those situations again.

(04-21-2016, 08:00 PM)Beaker Wrote: None. Those don't happen w/o the fumble.

Yes, the fumble happened and Jeremy failed to put the game away when he was given the chance.

However, even after the fumble, the defense was given an opportunity to seal the victory. Instead, 2 leaders of the D committed stupid, needless penalties which allowed the Steelers an easy FG and the win.

Both the offense and defense had a chance to seal the deal, and because of mistakes by players on each side of the ball, they failed on both occasions. 

Plenty of blame to go around, and it's well deserved.

(04-22-2016, 11:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote:

(04-22-2016, 12:40 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Terrific post.

x3. Bravo, muskiesfan. 

Honestly, I think people let Burfict and Jones off the hook because (a) they're fan favorites and (b) they were flagged for fighting with our hated rival. Most of us as fans felt the same way Burfict and Jones did. The difference is that players are supposed to keep their composure in key moments. In a lot of ways, I do think we were shafted in that game. The flag on Williams, the non-TD to Wheaton (?) and the way Burfict was vilified after the game, etc etc. That said, Burfict and Jones should be held accountable for losing their cool. We still had the game in hand without the penalties.

As for Hill, his fumble can't be blamed on the Steelers being a-holes and a lot of folks just don't like Hill anyway, so it provides another reason to bash the dude.

(04-22-2016, 09:38 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Yea, but the fumble doesn't happen if we get a first round bye by beating the Cardinals which happens if Dalton doesn't audible into a pass and then blow it.  You can trace things back far enough to make it anyone's fault.

Not saying Burfict and Jones are blameless (they're clearly not), but I don't think really works out with the Dalton thing you mentioned.

At that point you're projecting the results of 4 games in "what if" mode. That's a whole lot of projecting, a full fourth of a season without knowing how it'd go.

Hill not fumbling is a clear and immediate thing. If he doesn't fumble, they win. There's no real mystery involved.

Are Burfict and Jones culpable? Certainly. Did Hill get shaded from most of the criticism he'd have (justifiably) gotten due to the fiasco that happened right after? Absolutely.

(04-22-2016, 03:16 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Not saying Burfict and Jones are blameless (they're clearly not), but I don't think really works out with the Dalton thing you mentioned.

At that point you're projecting the results of 4 games in "what if" mode. That's a whole lot of projecting, a full fourth of a season without knowing how it'd go.

Hill not fumbling is a clear and immediate thing. If he doesn't fumble, they win. There's no real mystery involved.

Are Burfict and Jones culpable? Certainly. Did Hill get shaded from most of the criticism he'd have (justifiably) gotten due to the fiasco that happened right after? Absolutely.

Who knows though? The Steelers still had all 3 timeouts and say they stop the Bengals and make them kick a field goal. There's still a minute to work with and our defense let them go down that field. They got to our 47 yard line before any penalties happened.

Nothing is "clear cut".

When Ben came out after his injury, I'm pretty sure many of us thought we would win because he wouldn't be able to throw deep. Yet here we are.

Hill deserves blame. Jones deserves blame. Burfict deserves blame.

Fred, I appreciate Hill's ability, and he no doubt had a sophomore slump, which we hope he gets over. But one question: does anybody else think Hill could stand to lose a little weight? Nothing major, just say 6-8 pounds. It is many times surprising how even that amount can quicken a player up. It has nothing to do with the fumbling issue, but I think even a little more "quick" would help him a lot.

(04-22-2016, 03:45 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Who knows though? The Steelers still had all 3 timeouts and say they stop the Bengals and make them kick a field goal. There's still a minute to work with and our defense let them go down that field. They got to our 47 yard line before any penalties happened.

Nothing is "clear cut".

When Ben came out after his injury, I'm pretty sure many of us thought we would win because he wouldn't be able to throw deep. Yet here we are.

Hill deserves blame. Jones deserves blame. Burfict deserves blame.

A minute on the 20 yard line, with no timeouts (they'd use them when they stopped the Bengals and forced a FG in this scenario), and having to score a TD or lose against a defense that the only TD they "allowed" was an incomplete catch, against a QB who couldn't throw it with any kind of meaningful depth due to a hurt shoulder (so no hail mary even).

And that's IF they held them to no first down. (Didn't Hill have like 5 yards before he fumbled? So 2nd and 5-ish)

Yeah, I am pretty sure that's pretty clear cut.

(04-22-2016, 04:33 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: A minute on the 20 yard line, with no timeouts (they'd use them when they stopped the Bengals and forced a FG in this scenario), and having to score a TD or lose against a defense that the only TD they "allowed" was an incomplete catch, against a QB who couldn't throw it with any kind of meaningful depth due to a hurt shoulder (so no hail mary even).

And that's IF they held them to no first down. (Didn't Hill have like 5 yards before he fumbled? So 2nd and 5-ish)

Yeah, I am pretty sure that's pretty clear cut.

Who knows if they start at the 20? What if Antonio Brown returns it? What if Nugent kicks it out of bounds?

What if Brown or Bryant makes someone miss?

I mean, after the Burfict interception and someone told you the Steelers would win by a Hill fumble and two penalties for 30 yards to a QB with said injury, would you have believed that?

I mean, we saw the Broncos move down the field on us for a game winning field goal only to miss it. And who knows, what if someone tips the pass in the air like the Ravens did with Green for a hail mary?

We're just playing out a ton of scenarios. ANYTHING can happen in a minute. We've seen it happen plenty of times before.

The fact remains: Hill, Burfict, and Jones all are ALL reasons we lost that game. Hill gave up the ball. Burfict and Jones gave up 30 yards in under a minute for the game winning field goal.

(04-22-2016, 09:41 AM)muskiesfan Wrote: Like it or not, Burfict and Jones got the penalties that set up the game winning field goal and lost the game. That's not absolving Hill of his fumble, but they shouldn't be absolved either. It's fine if you like Burfict and Jones more and just don't want to put any blame on them because of that, but the fumble happened. 

It's not about liking Burflict or Jones more. Personally, I don't like them better and would love to see Hill dominate D's in the future. But, as you said yourself, the fumble happened. And just as people cannot forget the penalties, there is no forgetting the fumble... which was as equally senseless as the penalties. 

Hill dropped the rock. He's a dumbass.
Burflict shoulder-chucked the little sissy ballerina. He's a dumbass.
Jones got butt-hurt because Joey Porter "said" something. He's a dumbass.

They are all dumbasses. Hill is just the Initial Dumbass.

(04-22-2016, 04:57 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Who knows if they start at the 20? What if Antonio Brown returns it? What if Nugent kicks it out of bounds?

What if Brown or Bryant makes someone miss?

I mean, after the Burfict interception and someone told you the Steelers would win by a Hill fumble and two penalties for 30 yards to a QB with said injury, would you have believed that?

I mean, we saw the Broncos move down the field on us for a game winning field goal only to miss it. And who knows, what if someone tips the pass in the air like the Ravens did with Green for a hail mary?

We're just playing out a ton of scenarios. ANYTHING can happen in a minute. We've seen it happen plenty of times before.

The fact remains: Hill, Burfict, and Jones all are ALL reasons we lost that game. Hill gave up the ball. Burfict and Jones gave up 30 yards in under a minute for the game winning field goal.

Maybe. But the scenario LeonardLeap mentioned was far more probable. That's why you like for the team to be in that situation. And it takes a boatload of dumbass to screw that situation up... which we, unfortunately, had at the time.

(04-21-2016, 08:04 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: IMO

Jones doesn't get a penalty if Burflict doesn't get a penalty. And neither gets a penalty if Hill just holds onto the rock deep in the Steeler red zone. And we fans get the first Bengal playoff win in 26+ ***** years. 

 

IMO

If the refs had called the penalty on the Bernard hit then Burfict wouldn't have been out for blood and taken Brown's head off.

And, if the refs had properly called the Steelers' TD catch a non-catch, as they later said would have been the correct call, then the fumble and penalties wouldn't have mattered one bit.

(04-21-2016, 08:00 PM)Beaker Wrote: None. Those don't happen w/o the fumble.

Exactly and we wouldn't have been in position to win without Tez or Adam. Especially Tez bc he injured Ben and had what shoulda been the game winning int

(04-22-2016, 11:19 PM)TSwigZ Wrote: Exactly and we wouldn't have been in position to win without Tez or Adam. Especially Tez bc he injured Ben and had what shoulda been the game winning int

This is completely subject to the chaos theory. If Hill doesn't fumble it's possible AJ Green tears his acl on the next play. When talking what ifs you may as well throw logic out the window. Well, minus a unicorn showing up or something.

Man, what if Hil would have fumbled against the Steelers and Andy never would have had the chance to throw that INT and fracture his thumb? So Hill NOT fumbling could have been what truly cost us the Super Bowl this year. Cosmic, man.

(04-22-2016, 09:38 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Yea, but the fumble doesn't happen if we get a first round bye by beating the Cardinals which happens if Dalton doesn't audible into a pass and then blow it.  You can trace things back far enough to make it anyone's fault.

Direct vs indirect correlation. Hill's fumble directly led to us having to be in that defensive series.