(06-24-2015, 10:39 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Pete lied. There are worse things out there. He's a crappy human being no doubt about that. The fact remains that he belongs in the Hall of Fame. If you keep him out of the Hall of Fame then what's the point of even having a HOF. If the whole purpose is to honor a player for his achievements on the field, and you refuse to honor the all time hits leader, then you're doing it wrong. When they changed the eligibility requirements to purposely keep him out, that was just totally effed up.

At this point its just easier for Manfred to just wash his hands of the situation and let Pete back into baseball in some capacity. Sure you might have a few baseball purist pissed off for a while, but in return your giving back a whole fan base one of their most treasured players. People who are in the anti Pete camp will eventually get over it and focus their negative energy on something else. The rule keeping him out is outdated and no longer really is enforceable. It was put in place to keep players or managers from fixing games, and there is no evidence out there that supports any claims that Pete fixed games. He bet on them because he has a gambling problem, its that simple.

If we can forgive a guy like Josh Hamilton relapse after relapse, get him some support, then why cant we do the same for a guy like Rose with a different kind of addiction?  MLB would win over a lot of people if they took the high road, let Pete back in and tried to get him some help, then rather looking like the vindictive organization they currently look like at this moment.

I wrote a letter to Bud Selig around 1995 about this very topic.....only the names have changed.  One player that REALLY sticks out, and I used as a basis for my arguments, was Steve Howe.  He was banned for life and reinstated over his cocaine abuse......he was suspended SEVEN times over the course of his career.  Cocaine is illegal everywhere, gambling is not.  Makes no sense in the grand scheme of things......yeah, I know...."integrity of the game" and shit.  If they were so worried about the integrity of the game, then Roger Marris' and Hank Aaron's records would be reinstated......

Pete Rose is my all time favorite player.  I was born in 1974 so I don't really remember the height of the Big Red Machine, but I was aware of him enough to freak out as a child when he became a Philly.  I was in 4th grade when he broke Ty Cobb's record, and remember my teacher updating the countdown of hits next to his poster.  Pete Rose is the Cincinnati Reds as far as I'm concerned... But...  He has no one to blame but himself for this.  He's had over 20 years to just ***** come clean already.  Those of us with kids know how infuriating it is when you know they are lying, and they won't fess up.  Just come clean and at least act  contrite. He can't even do that. He is stubborn to a fault.  He thumbs his nose at the Hall of Fame as he sits across the street every year signing anything for money.  He lives in Vegas of all places.  We can all blame Dowd for the timing of this, and it is shitty, because I was excited about Pete's inclusion at the All Star game.  I just have a hard time mustering any sympathy for Pete anymore.  I never really expected him to be reinstated, but I always hoped he'd be voted to the Hall of Fame in his lifetime.  Now I'm not even sure I think he deserves that.  All of his accomplishments are already in there.  I think that's good enough.  With each revelation (I don't think any of us are shocked that he didn't just start betting on baseball as a manager) it becomes harder and harder to not have the gambling issue be the first thing that gets mentioned when his name is brought up.  He's just a fatally flawed Shakespearian figure. 

(06-24-2015, 11:53 AM)Wyche Wrote: I wrote a letter to Bud Selig around 1995 about this very topic.....only the names have changed.  One player that REALLY sticks out, and I used as a basis for my arguments, was Steve Howe.  He was banned for life and reinstated over his cocaine abuse......he was suspended SEVEN times over the course of his career.  Cocaine is illegal everywhere, gambling is not.  Makes no sense in the grand scheme of things......yeah, I know...."integrity of the game" and shit.  If they were so worried about the integrity of the game, then Roger Marris' and Hank Aaron's records would be reinstated......

Steve Howe? For some reason I thought the seven times and banned for life guy was Bob Welch. But you are correct. Welch was an alcoholic who went into treatment when playing and later wrote a book about it. The book was called 'Five o'clock Comes Early." In 1979 there were reports if him getting drunk in the clubhouse and blacking out in there. I thought he was suspended too but it looks like he just voluntarily went to tx. Thanks for helping me get the hx right - Howe suspended seven times and banned for life and then reinstated. Somehow Pete pissing away a bunch of his own money via a different addiction - the punishments just seem unbalanced.

(06-25-2015, 09:45 AM)xxlt Wrote: Steve Howe? For some reason I thought the seven times and banned for life guy was Bob Welch. But you are correct. Welch was an alcoholic who went into treatment when playing and later wrote a book about it. The book was called 'Five o'clock Comes Early." In 1979 there were reports if him getting drunk in the clubhouse and blacking out in there. I thought he was suspended too but it looks like he just voluntarily went to tx. Thanks for helping me get the hx right - Howe suspended seven times and banned for life and then reinstated. Somehow Pete pissing away a bunch of his own money via a different addiction - the punishments just seem unbalanced.

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter....the response I got from Selig was laughable.  I'll try to remember to dig it out and post it here when I get home.  More or less " 'cause we say so".

(06-25-2015, 01:56 PM)Wyche Wrote: Pretty much my thoughts on the matter....the response I got from Selig was laughable.  I'll try to remember to dig it out and post it here when I get home.  More or less " 'cause we say so".

And that is a big part of the reason that NFL football is the nation's favorite sport now.

(06-24-2015, 10:39 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Pete lied. There are worse things out there. He's a crappy human being no doubt about that. The fact remains that he belongs in the Hall of Fame. If you keep him out of the Hall of Fame then what's the point of even having a HOF. If the whole purpose is to honor a player for his achievements on the field, and you refuse to honor the all time hits leader, then you're doing it wrong. When they changed the eligibility requirements to purposely keep him out, that was just totally effed up.

At this point its just easier for Manfred to just wash his hands of the situation and let Pete back into baseball in some capacity. Sure you might have a few baseball purist pissed off for a while, but in return your giving back a whole fan base one of their most treasured players. People who are in the anti Pete camp will eventually get over it and focus their negative energy on something else. The rule keeping him out is outdated and no longer really is enforceable. It was put in place to keep players or managers from fixing games, and there is no evidence out there that supports any claims that Pete fixed games. He bet on them because he has a gambling problem, its that simple.

If we can forgive a guy like Josh Hamilton relapse after relapse, get him some support, then why cant we do the same for a guy like Rose with a different kind of addiction?  MLB would win over a lot of people if they took the high road, let Pete back in and tried to get him some help, then rather looking like the vindictive organization they currently look like at this moment.

With some notable exceptions, most MLB players are assholes in my experience. And many, like Pete, are just not that bright. The HoF has plenty of assholes and dumbasses lining their walls. Pete would have been just one of many. And I guarantee that more than one HoF player bet on baseball games. They just didn't get caught.

BTW- Speaking of dumbasses, you gotta wonder about the intelligence of the mob guys taking Pete's bets and letting him get into them for so much. Part of being a successful organized crime organization is staying under-the-radar and avoiding publicity, right. Instead these dumbasses cultivate a relationship with a celebrity. Didn't anyone figure out there would be a trail of bread crumbs leading right back to them? That's what happened with Schlicter in the mid-80's. He turned state's evidence on his bookies. An, but I digress...

I agree that Pete should be in the Hall of Fame, only as long as no evidence comes to light that he bet against his team. Unfortunately, the league doesn't see it that way. It is a matter of convenience for them. Rather than having to go the extra distance and prove the gambling was against a person's own team, they chose to just say, "If you gambled, then your gone." Like it or not, it is what it is.

Personally, I think the steroid and other perfomance-enhancing drug use is far worse than what Pete did (provided he never bet against his team). That is crossing a line and cheating to win. Ultimately, isn't that what MLB (or any league for that matter) ought to be concerned with: people breaking the rules in order to achieve an unfair outcome? Unfortunately, you'll never be able to make the case that  Pete should be reinstated based upon other people breaking different rules and the outcomes of those situations.

(06-25-2015, 03:57 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: With some notable exceptions, most MLB players are assholes in my experience. And many, like Pete, are just not that bright. The HoF has plenty of assholes and dumbasses lining their walls. Pete would have been just one of many. And I guarantee that more than one HoF player bet on baseball games. They just didn't get caught.

BTW- Speaking of dumbasses, you gotta wonder about the intelligence of the mob guys taking Pete's bets and letting him get into them for so much. Part of being a successful organized crime organization is staying under-the-radar and avoiding publicity, right. Instead these dumbasses cultivate a relationship with a celebrity. Didn't anyone figure out there would be a trail of bread crumbs leading right back to them? That's what happened with Schlicter in the mid-80's. He turned state's evidence on his bookies. An, but I digress...

I agree that Pete should be in the Hall of Fame, only as long as no evidence comes to light that he bet against his team. Unfortunately, the league doesn't see it that way. It is a matter of convenience for them. Rather than having to go the extra distance and prove the gambling was against a person's own team, they chose to just say, "If you gambled, then your gone." Like it or not, it is what it is.

Personally, I think the steroid and other perfomance-enhancing drug use is far worse than what Pete did (provided he never bet against his team). That is crossing a line and cheating to win. Ultimately, isn't that what MLB (or any league for that matter) ought to be concerned with: people breaking the rules in order to achieve an unfair outcome? Unfortunately, you'll never be able to make the case that  Pete should be reinstated based upon other people breaking different rules and the outcomes of those situations.

Look at it this way, how credible can I guy be who has already been convicted of fraud? Its like every piece of evidence they got from this guy was solid.

I think they all should be in.  I think Pete should definitely be in.  but also, Mark McGuire, Barry Bonds, Jose Canseco, and everyone else from the steriod era.  They all deserve it.  Written on their plaque should be their whole story.  Why they are in the Hall, their stats, level of play, steriod usage, gambling addiction.  Everything!   Who cares what their personal life was about.  This isn't the Hall of Character, its the Hall of Fame.  Your character shouldn't have anything to do with your place in the Hall, its all about your playing abilities.  You really think Ty Cobb would be elected into the Hall of Fame today?  What about Babe Ruth and all his faults? 

My personal take on Pete Rose. I am a fan of his playing days. However, his behavior and denials should keep him out of baseball for life. The HOF is not owned by the MLB and it is for the fans, the fans have time and again voted Pete on to various all-time teams and lists. I think Pete should be in the HOF because it's what the fans want, but Pete should not be allowed to work for a major league team.

He should be in HOF but he shouldn't be allowed back in Major league Baseball in any capacity outside of the Hall of Fame.

I don't think there was even a slight chance Pete was going to be reinstated. Hence the damning evidence "leaking" out.

Like Zona and others have said Pete isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. He probably killed any chance he had way back when by not coming clean more or less from the jump. Had he done that I'd say there's a decent chance he's in by now.

They're going to ride rule 21 or whatever it is - the integrity of the game - all the way out on this one. He may get in by some veterans committee years from now but I'm not even sure about that.

I was a Big Red Machine nut and look back on those days with fond memories. I'll never forget being like 11 years old or so sitting right on 3rd base maybe 2nd row in Riverfront and Pete playing just right there.

Baseball isn't the same anymore for me and many others. The All Star game isn't the same, back then those guys only played each other there and the WS. Like Zona and many others it lost it's luster for me during the 95 strike and will never come back.

You deserve the Hall Charlie Hustle for what you did on the field - period ! Still remember him running to 1st on a walk, spiking the ball on the pitchers mound, looking the ball all the way into the catchers mitt and so on.

(06-26-2015, 02:55 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: I think they all should be in.  I think Pete should definitely be in.  but also, Mark McGuire, Barry Bonds, Jose Canseco, and everyone else from the steriod era.  They all deserve it.  Written on their plaque should be their whole story.  Why they are in the Hall, their stats, level of play, steriod usage, gambling addiction.  Everything!   Who cares what their personal life was about.  This isn't the Hall of Character, its the Hall of Fame.  Your character shouldn't have anything to do with your place in the Hall, its all about your playing abilities.  You really think Ty Cobb would be elected into the Hall of Fame today?  What about Babe Ruth and all his faults? 

Roger Clemmons wasn't on any team's "franchise four".  Sammy Sosa was excluded from the Cubs' list.  Barry Bonds had a better career than Sandy Koufax, yet he was left off the "greatest living players".  I don't know why the hell Mike Piazza hasn't gotten into the HOF.  I think McGuire is borderline, and I'm not sure Canseco belongs. I agree with Hawk.  They cannot continue to pretend that the steroid era never happened.  If anything, I think it cheapens the Hall when the hit king, HR king, and one of the best pitchers of all time are excluded.  All of that shit happened... I remember it.

First, in many ways I am a Pete Rose Fan. I saw Pete Rose in person from 1966 and on a lot in Cincy. I saw him play 2nd, all outfield positions, 3rd, 1st and manager.....So when he was a hit away from Ty Cobb, I was the one who painted the big banner of Pete Rose that hung in right field. ( I'm a pretty good painter, sometimes ). I nailed that huge bed sheet up and copied Pete Rose on the Reds Yearbook that year. The people at the gate and ushers questioned me bringing it in until they saw it, and said go on in. I started off 3rd base but the winds forced me to move it to left field. No hit so I came back the next night, no hit. I could not come back a third straight night from Dayton, and so it was not there when he got the hit. ....So you could say I'm a Pete Rose Fan. I was there the night of the 1970 tornado and the city kept people in Crosley Field because it was safer than everybody leaving on the highway. Long, long rain delay. Then long after midnight game looked like extra innings and all fans at the park hated it. Bottom of the 9th, Peter Rose, as if say. Lets Get This Over, hit a deep home run to right center. It was great and so was 1970 All-Star Game and World Series Wins. I was there when he got the awards for the 1968 and 1969 batting championship. I was there in 1983 when as a he singled, stole 2nd, stole 3rd and stole home against the Reds on Farmers Night. ( a great night of Pete, Joe and Tony as Phillies and Bench winning the game in 9th with a walk off gapper.

My being a Pete Rose Fan aside.....his mistake is the same as President Nixon.....The Cover Up only made it worse.....In Pete's case, decades of cover up....Pete said he didn't for decades and then said he did. That means he lied to Joe Nuxhall. Pete lied to Joe Nuxhall and Marty....That really is the sad part. All the people that were trying to take Pete's side in this. Johnny Bench said it best when asked about Pete years ago. Bench said, " It says in every dugout and locker room from the minors to the majors, no gambling. You see those signs every game. Everybody see's it, I saw those signs and Pete saw those signs. You can't say he didn't know the rules ". ....but Pete had his chance to come clean in 1988. He now blames his lawyer and the Commish dying because he thought it was a 1 year suspension, when the Commish sat there and said Lifetime Ban, and Pete signed that. Where in the heck was Pete getting 1 year out of the words Lifetime. ....But then Pete lied to Joe and Marty for decades and that is as bad or worse than the gambling, the Nixon like cover-up. Pete had a chance to address this on TV just lately, and again he covered-up saying he is waiting to talk to the new Commish.

Now I don't compare Pete to the 1919 White Sox throwing the World Series and taking a dive. Nobody has ever shown Pete bet on a team he was with to lose. ( not that that isn't coming, nothing would surprise me now due to Pete's cover-up ). There were players on other teams in 1919 that got suspended for gambling but played again and some are in Hall Of Fame. ....but the never ending soap opera that is Pete Rose is Pete's fault. He is the one that gambled and lied about it from 1988 up to around 2005 and is still covering up to this day as he lives in Las Vegas, gambling center of the USA.

I hope as always that if Pete is never in the MLB Hall Of Fame, that MLB lets Cincinnati retire his number and make a statue and put Pete in the Cincinnati Hall of Fame. States rights and Ohio is not Cooperstown New York. Plus, this would ease the fans pain, go the distance, ease their pain. Let him in the Cincy Hall of Fame. .......but I am very tired of the decades of Pete cover-up. I stood up for Pete against his critics for decades, only to find out I was wrong, Pete had lied to me....and he lied to Joe and Marty and I just can't accept that. I understand denial, but I think sometimes Pete thinks he is being slick like a con artist. I have a relative that is a con artist all his life and thinks he is slick, but really, all he does, is burn his bridges. After you have spent years burning friends and relatives and burning bridges, don't expect me to cry when you are all alone when down and out. You would only burn one more helping hand, it's in your nature now. ......More than the gambling, I hate The Nixon like, Pete Rose Cover-Ups.....sadly, he was one of the best players I ever saw and played in more winning games than anybody ever. ...If he would just come clean before he dies, please Pete, stop the Nixon like cover-up. Do it for the Reds fans, don't go to your grave lying and trying to be slick. If you bet on baseball, be a man and say so, The Truth Will Set You Free as you head to Judgement Day at your age. The truth is going to make you feel real good Pete, I promise you. Quit carrying the never ending lies on your back.....and hopefully in the end, if not Cooperstown, a statue in Cincinnati of Amazing Grace, who was lost but now he's found. The Cincy Pete Rose statue...but you have to come clean Pete, you have to come clean.

PS add on : I just saw a Johnny Bench interview before All-Star Game on YouTube. When asked about Pete, Bench said Pete has had his chances and it's time Pete steps up and changes, no more hidden surprises. Bench said if Pete can play 2nd, right, center, left, third and 1st, then he shows he knows how to change and adjust when he wants to. Bench said Pete needs to apply the same 110 % he gave to playing baseball to coming clean and telling the truth now, no more hidden surprises, no more gambling secrets. ......Now Pete in an interview hedged around as always, but did say he will tell the new Commish everything. Pete better because this ' poor, poor me ' routine of his layered in lies is over 25 years old and most people are just sick of hearing him pity party and side step. Don't be a cry baby Pete, the farmer in Urbana or the factory worker in Cincinnati has his own problems. Step up and tell the Commish the WHOLE TRUTH. Pete says he hopes he gets to talk about 2015 and not the 1980's and again he is in denial. The new Commish is going to want Pete to finally purge himself and come clean on his playing and manager years, not hear about his kids or how he likes Subway food in 2015. Pete better go in there and end the 26 year cover-up and let it all out. It is way past time. If the new Commish talks to Pete Edward Rose and says he was very disappointed in the meeting and he expected more of Mr Rose, then I will be about done carrying if Mr Rose ever gets any more anything, because I myself have my own life to live...It's all up to Pete now, he can finally tell it all to the Commish or forever cry and whine. I saw on TV that Jack Parr walked off the Tonight Show after censored but then asked Jonathan Winters about coming back. Winters said if you come back Jack, don't cry and be a baby about it. The guy working in Detroit doesn't want to hear that. This then can be applied to Mr Rose and his hidden gambling secrets.