Like many others I'd put him around 10th. If he has another season anything like last year, and they actually win a playoff game. Dalton would easily break into the top 5 or so.

(05-16-2016, 12:53 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: If we're voting QB's based off JUST them and not their surrounding talent, I think Dalton comes up like 9-ish for me, which is juuuust out of the top-8 number for me.

In no particular order..... Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, Wilson, Romo, Roethlisberger... and then the only one I will put in order is Newton at 8th. (He scrapes past Dalton for me giving him the benefit of doubt on a shit WR group he works with.)

I think Dalton is right after that group, closely followed by Palmer to round out the top-10. Followed by the next tier of QBs like Bortles, A Smith, Luck, M Ryan, Carr.

Cam Newton has had a better weapons than Dalton most of their careers. I don't know where this narrative where Newton has a bad receiving core comes from.

           2011                                              2012                               2013                           2014                              2015
Steve Smith > AJ Green                          Green > Smith               Green > Smith          Benjamin > Green/Sanu         Green > Ginn
Brandon LaFell > Jerome Simpson           LaFell > Hawkins             Jones > LaFell          Ginn > Sanu/Tate     .....    Jones > Funchess
Greg Olsen > Jermaine Gresham             Olsen  > Gresham            Olsen > Gresham     Olsen > Gresham               Olsen = Eifert
DeAngelo Williams > Benson                   Williams > BJGE              Williams > BJGE       Hill > Williams                   Hill / Gio > Stewart

(05-16-2016, 12:53 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: If we're voting QB's based off JUST them and not their surrounding talent, I think Dalton comes up like 9-ish for me, which is juuuust out of the top-8 number for me.

In no particular order..... Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, Wilson, Romo, Roethlisberger... and then the only one I will put in order is Newton at 8th. (He scrapes past Dalton for me giving him the benefit of doubt on a shit WR group he works with.)

I think Dalton is right after that group, closely followed by Palmer to round out the top-10. Followed by the next tier of QBs like Bortles, A Smith, Luck, M Ryan, Carr.

Russel Wilson isn't on this list  so is it fair to compare him?

(05-16-2016, 10:51 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Cam Newton has had a better weapons than Dalton most of their careers. I don't know where this narrative where Newton has a bad receiving core comes from.

           2011                                              2012                               2013                           2014                                      2015
Steve Smith > AJ Green                          Green > Smith               Green > Smith          Benjamin > Green/Sanu            Green > Ginn
Brandon LaFell > Jerome Simpson           LaFell > Hawkins             Jones > LaFell           Ginn > Sanu/Tate            .....            Jones > Funchess
Greg Olsen > Jermaine Gresham             Olsen  > Gresham            Olsen > Gresham     Olsen > Gresham                       Olsen = Eifert
DeAngelo Williams > Benson                   Williams > BJGE              Williams > BJGE        Hill > Williams                              Hill / Gio > Stewart

Benjamin better than Green and Sanu???

(05-16-2016, 12:06 PM)BengalFanInNJ Wrote: Benjamin better than Green and Sanu???

I thought that too at first, but what I think he is saying is that Green missed 4-5 games that year and Sanu took his place as top WR. So Benjamin > a mix of Green and Sanu at #1.

(05-16-2016, 12:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I thought that too at first, but what I think he is saying is that Green missed 4-5 games that year and Sanu took his place as top WR. So Benjamin > a mix of Green and Sanu at #1.

This is correct. Green wasn't playing healthy a lot of the games he played and he completely missed some games too.

And really it was very hard for me to put Olsen = to Eifert. Realistically Olsen has much better stats.

(05-16-2016, 12:42 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: This is correct. Green wasn't playing healthy a lot of the games he played and he completely missed some games too.

Right. I remember he was used strictly as a decoy vs Denver. 

(05-16-2016, 12:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Right. I remember he was used strictly as a decoy vs Denver. 

I remember reading an article where Green said he didn't feel "100%" until the Jags game in week 9, but got hurt again later in the season.

If Andy continues his trajectory, he's easily Elite 8, but for now, I roll with 9th......and that ain't too shabby.

(05-16-2016, 10:51 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Cam Newton has had a better weapons than Dalton most of their careers. I don't know where this narrative where Newton has a bad receiving core comes from.

           2011                                              2012                               2013                           2014                                      2015
Steve Smith > AJ Green                          Green > Smith               Green > Smith          Benjamin > Green/Sanu            Green > Ginn
Brandon LaFell > Jerome Simpson           LaFell > Hawkins             Jones > LaFell           Ginn > Sanu/Tate            .....            Jones > Funchess
Greg Olsen > Jermaine Gresham             Olsen  > Gresham            Olsen > Gresham     Olsen > Gresham                       Olsen = Eifert
DeAngelo Williams > Benson                   Williams > BJGE              Williams > BJGE        Hill > Williams                              Hill / Gio > Stewart

2011: You got half of it wrong...
-LaFell > Simpson that year. Simpson stepped up that year and had more receptions, yards, and TDs than LaFell.
-Gresham > Olsen that year, too. Gresham had more receptions, yards, and TDs than Olsen.

I feel like you kind of just looked at names and decided they were better due to reputation today.

2012: Ehhh, I would say more like...
-Williams = BJGE. Williams only ran for like 737 yards at 4.3 YPC that year. Sure BJGE ran at 3.9 YPC, but he ran for 1,094 yards. Not sure that's so clear cut of an advantage for Williams.

2013: Agreed.

2014: Lololol....
-Green/anybody > Benjamin... Green played essentially 11 games and still had more yards than Benjamin's 16 games. Think you got a little too much Benjamin love there.
-ANYBODY > 2014 Ginn... Ginn had 190 yards and 0 TD in 16 games. Tate only being the backup #2 in the games where AJ didn't play had 193 yards and 1 TD. That's not counting Sanu actually being the #2 when AJ was around.

To put it in perspective.... 2014 Ginn: 14/190/0 in 16 games. 2012 Binns: 24/277/1 in 11 games.

2015: This will be the one time I think you were too kind too kind to the Bengals in your rankings.
-Olsen > Eifert... Olsen: 77/1,104/7, Eifert: 52/615/13. Cam likes to run it in so he can dance for 30 seconds, but Olsen seriously had 500 more yards receiving. That's damn near double.


- - - - - - - - - -

By my count that puts the Bengals at an advantage of 11-8-1.

1. Brady
2. Rodgers
3. Brees
4. Rapist
5. Wilson
6. Luck
7. Newton
8. Dalton

Do a lot of these guys lean on their defense/coaching/o-line?  Sure.  But from a pure qb talent standpoint I think that it shakes out something like this.

(05-16-2016, 07:58 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: 1. Brady
2. Rodgers
3. Brees
4. Rapist
5. Wilson
6. Luck
7. Newton
8. Dalton

Do a lot of these guys lean on their defense/coaching/o-line?  Sure.  But from a pure qb talent standpoint I think that it shakes out something like this.

Dang, no love for Romo? You're like the 3rd or 4th person who I have seen just ignore him on their top list. Sure he was hurt last year, but the year before he had.. 69.9% completion, 8.5 YPA, 34:9 TD/INT, and a 113.2 QB Rating. Guy has the 3rd highest career QB Rating in NFL History.

Never understood the lack of appreciation of how good he's been. It took two broken collarbones in one year to make him have his first QB Rating of under 90 in his career.

How hard is it to put up yards in garbage time? Is Tyrod Taylor a good qb based on yards, qbr, and td to int ratio? I always hear how good guys like Rivers, Romo, and Ryan are, but they never pass the eyeball test. These dudes have never won anything, and my guess is that they never will. It's really not that hard to put up a lot of yards in a losing game nowadays compared to actually winning games. That's why I don't put Romo in with the others.

I gave him top 5, based on last year, before the injury. I also question some of the others that are consensus top 5, as they are getting up in years, and I feel that their best days are behind them.

Andy is in his prime, fully developed, and it showed last season.

(05-16-2016, 07:49 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 2011: You got half of it wrong...
-LaFell > Simpson that year. Simpson stepped up that year and had more receptions, yards, and TDs than LaFell.
-Gresham > Olsen that year, too. Gresham had more receptions, yards, and TDs than Olsen.

I feel like you kind of just looked at names and decided they were better due to reputation today.

2012: Ehhh, I would say more like...
-Williams = BJGE. Williams only ran for like 737 yards at 4.3 YPC that year. Sure BJGE ran at 3.9 YPC, but he ran for 1,094 yards. Not sure that's so clear cut of an advantage for Williams.

2013: Agreed.

2014: Lololol....
-Green/anybody > Benjamin... Green played essentially 11 games and still had more yards than Benjamin's 16 games. Think you got a little too much Benjamin love there.
-ANYBODY > 2014 Ginn... Ginn had 190 yards and 0 TD in 16 games. Tate only being the backup #2 in the games where AJ didn't play had 193 yards and 1 TD. That's not counting Sanu actually being the #2 when AJ was around.

To put it in perspective.... 2014 Ginn: 14/190/0 in 16 games. 2012 Binns: 24/277/1 in 11 games.

2015: This will be the one time I think you were too kind too kind to the Bengals in your rankings.
-Olsen > Eifert... Olsen: 77/1,104/7, Eifert: 52/615/13. Cam likes to run it in so he can dance for 30 seconds, but Olsen seriously had 500 more yards receiving. That's damn near double.


- - - - - - - - - -

By my count that puts the Bengals at an advantage of 11-8-1.

You're just going by yards / TDs... there are more meaningful stats than those
2011:
I had LaFell over Simpson, because Simpson had 9 drops that year (15.25%). Yeah, Simpson had more yards and TDs, but his drop % was just horrible, and he was 80th in the league in drop %. LaFell on the other hand was very sure handed that year only dropping 2 passes, which had him 11th best in the league.
The same goes for Olsen vs Gresham. Gresham had almost twice as many drops as Olsen, so I put Olsen over Gresham.

2012:
Jonathan Stewart was also on the team, and he provided an additional 493 total yards and total 2 TD. Willams had 924 total yards and 7 total TDs. BJGE had 1198 total yards and 6 TDs. I think it's pretty clear the Panthers had a better run game this year.

2014:
Green was out for a big portion of the games. Benjamin had 1008 yards 9 TDs, Green had 1041 6 TDs. I'm pretty sure 3 TDs > 33 yards.
My bad I meant Cotchery not Ginn who had 580 yards and 1 TD.
If you really want to say the #1 vs #1 receiver it would be Olsen vs Green, and #2s would be Benjamin vs Sanu and the #3s would be Cotchery vs Gresham, which ALL of the panthers players out preformed the Bengals (Gresham had 3 fumbles, so I'm putting Cotchery over him).

(05-16-2016, 08:20 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: You're just going by yards / TDs... there are more meaningful stats than those
2011:
I had LaFell over Simpson, because Simpson had 9 drops that year (15.25%). Yeah, Simpson had more yards and TDs, but his drop % was just horrible, and he was 80th in the league in drop %. LaFell on the other hand was very sure handed that year only dropping 2 passes, which had him 11th best in the league.
The same goes for Olsen vs Gresham. Gresham had almost twice as many drops as Olsen, so I put Olsen over Gresham.

2012:
Jonathan Stewart was also on the team, and he provided an additional 493 total yards and total 2 TD. Willams had 924 total yards and 7 total TDs. BJGE had 1198 total yards and 6 TDs. I think it's pretty clear the Panthers had a better run game this year.

2014:
Green was out for a big portion of the games. Benjamin had 1008 yards 9 TDs, Green had 1041 6 TDs. I'm pretty sure 3 TDs > 33 yards.
My bad I meant Cotchery not Ginn who had 580 yards and 1 TD.
If you really want to say the #1 vs #1 receiver it would be Olsen vs Green, and #2s would be Benjamin vs Sanu and the #3s would be Cotchery vs Gresham, which ALL of the panthers players out preformed the Bengals (Gresham had 3 fumbles, so I'm putting Cotchery over him).

Seems like you're just nitpicking stats and not staying consistent. For instance you give LaFell the nod over Simpson because of Simpson's drops; yet give Benjamin the nod over Green despite Benjamin leading the league in dropped passes.

Too funny you discount Leonard's stats because he uses yards and catches; yet you do the same only when it supports your view.

IMO and has earned a top 10 ranking in the NFL; arguably the elite 8. But when fans try to hard to pump him up it kinds of cheapens it. Ask anybody who has watched the NFL the past 5 years to tell you who has had the better receiving corp in their career.

The way he was playing last season was top 5, and I fully believe that he'll put up those numbers again, so the homer/realist in me says top 5, but he needs to put it together for another season, so I voted 6 to 8.

I voted 13 - 16 though I don't think it's a stretch to put him in the 9- 12 group. I need to see more before I rank him ahead of some of those guys who are in his tier.

(05-16-2016, 09:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Seems like you're just nitpicking stats and not staying consistent. For instance you give LaFell the nod over Simpson because of Simpson's drops; yet give Benjamin the nod over Green despite Benjamin leading the league in dropped passes.

Too funny you discount Leaping's stats because he uses yards and catches; yet you do the same only when it supports your view.

IMO and has earned a top 10 ranking in the NFL; arguably the elite 8. But when fans try to hard to pump him up it kinds of cheapens it. Ask anybody who has watched the NFL the past 5 years to tell you who has had the better receiving corp in their career.

Green had 3 fumbles I believe in 2014 that's why I have Benjamin over him even though he has a higher drop %. I'm not just randomly picking out stats I want to use. I'm actually looking at yards / TD / drops / fumbles.

(05-16-2016, 10:09 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Green had 3 fumbles I believe in 2014 that's why I have Benjamin over him even though he has a higher drop %. I'm not just randomly picking out stats I want to use. I'm actually looking at yards / TD / drops / fumbles.

I meant to mention that when you gave Olsen to nod over Gresh because of fumbles. What effect does a receiver fumbling the ball after they make a catch have on a QB's numbers?

So Benjamin led the league with 10 drops while AJ had 2, but you give Benjamin the nod because AJ had 3 fumbles while Benjamin had 1. Seems about right