(06-27-2015, 05:37 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Wow you really think Wilson is a top 6-8 QB in the league? That's hilarious. Also how is my argument flawed? If you want to make a point you have to show proof, and I don't believe there is anything that points to Wilson being that good. Wilson is litterally the most over hyped QB in the league. All he has done has been a game manager letting the defense, special teams, and run game carry him. He very rarely shows production on the field, and if he wasn't on a team like the Seahawks he would be a more mobile Alex Smith (who isn't very good either).

Me and many others. Your assertions obviously don't take 2014 into consideration. It's hard to overhype a QB who produces when it matters, doesn't turn the ball over much, is a consummate leader, and has shown that he can carry his team. Wilson isn't in the same class as Rodgers/Brady/Manning, but he's solidly in the next tier. I posted the career stats for Wilson and Dalton. Obviously you didn't look at Wilson's because it shoots holes through your opinions like 00 buckshot.

Here they are again:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsRu00.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00.htm

Wilson destroys Dalton in pretty much all meaningful categories. Better TD:TO percentage, better passer rating, higher yards/attempt, better advanced passing stats, better postseason passing stats, etc..... The only reason Andy has more raw passing yards is a function of the Gruden pass-centric offense. Last year Wilson threw for more yards than Dalton, with more TD's, far less turnovers, a passer rating 20+ points higher, higher YPA, and far better advanced stats. All throwing to Jermaine Kearse, Paul Richardson, Doug Baldwin, and Luke Wilson. Don't try to use the Andy's receivers were subpar argument. Even with injuries the Bengals had a better group of receivers than Seattle.
One final nugget:

Remember that list awhile back that showed Dalton was at the bottom all time for postseason passers? Wilson was in the 85th percentile or better.

(06-27-2015, 05:59 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Me and many others.  Your assertions obviously don't take 2014 into consideration.  It's hard to overhype a QB who produces when it matters, doesn't turn the ball over much, is a consummate leader, and has shown that he can carry his team.  Wilson isn't in the same class as Rodgers/Brady/Manning, but he's solidly in the next tier.  I posted the career stats for Wilson and Dalton.  Obviously you didn't look at Wilson's because it shoots holes through your opinions like 00 buckshot.

Here they are again:  

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsRu00.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00.htm

In the three years both have been in the league Wilson has 72 passing TD's (Dalton has 79), and 26 INT's.  Dalton has 53, or more than double what Wilson has thrown.  Dalton has 11360 passing yards, and Wilson has 9950.  So, to compile 1410 more passing yards over 3 seasons, Dalton has thrown twice the picks that Wilson has.  That's a pick for every 52 yards.  Wilson also has 1250 more rushing yards than Andy in that time period.

Wilson destroys Dalton in pretty much all meaningful categories.  Better TD:TO percentage, better passer rating, higher completion percentage, higher yards/attempt, better advanced passing stats, better postseason passing stats, etc.....   The only reason Andy has more raw passing yards is a function of the Gruden pass-centric offense.  Last year Wilson threw for more yards than Dalton, with more TD's, far less turnovers, a passer rating 20+ points higher, higher YPA, and far better advanced stats.  All throwing to Jermaine Kearse, Paul Richardson, Doug Baldwin, and Luke Wilson.  Don't try to use the Andy's receivers were subpar argument.  Even with injuries the Bengals had a better group of receivers than Seattle.
One final nugget:

Remember that list awhile back that showed Dalton was at the bottom all time for postseason passers?  Wilson was in the 85th percentile or better.

(06-27-2015, 05:59 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Me and many others.  Your assertions obviously don't take 2014 into consideration.  It's hard to overhype a QB who produces when it matters, doesn't turn the ball over much, is a consummate leader, and has shown that he can carry his team.  Wilson isn't in the same class as Rodgers/Brady/Manning, but he's solidly in the next tier.  I posted the career stats for Wilson and Dalton.  Obviously you didn't look at Wilson's because it shoots holes through your opinions like 00 buckshot.

Here they are again:  

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsRu00.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00.htm

Wilson destroys Dalton in pretty much all meaningful categories.  Better TD:TO percentage, better passer rating, higher yards/attempt, better advanced passing stats, better postseason passing stats, etc.....   The only reason Andy has more raw passing yards is a function of the Gruden pass-centric offense.  Last year Wilson threw for more yards than Dalton, with more TD's, far less turnovers, a passer rating 20+ points higher, higher YPA, and far better advanced stats.  All throwing to Jermaine Kearse, Paul Richardson, Doug Baldwin, and Luke Wilson.  Don't try to use the Andy's receivers were subpar argument.  Even with injuries the Bengals had a better group of receivers than Seattle.
One final nugget:

Remember that list awhile back that showed Dalton was at the bottom all time for postseason passers?  Wilson was in the 85th percentile or better.

Lol Wilson rarely has any kind of production. And your insane if you think that Dalton still had better weapons if you include injuries. Wilson is a game manager 100% him only having five 300+ games in his career including the playoffs. Wilson isn't even in the top 10 QBs. Romo, Rivers, Ryan, and even people like Newton (who I don't even think is in the top 10) is better than Wilson. Dalton has been a big reason why our offense has even been relevant. We haven't had a good run game other than the last half of last year. Dalton has only had above average weapons ONE year, and he had stats that Wilson will NEVER have.

Without a team like the Seahawks Wilson would be considered an average QB

(06-27-2015, 06:19 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Lol Wilson rarely has any kind of production. And your insane if you think that Dalton still had better weapons if you include injuries. Wilson is a game manager 100% him only having five 300+ games in his career including the playoffs. Wilson isn't even in the top 10 QBs. Romo, Rivers, Ryan, and even people like Newton (who I don't even think is in the top 10) is better than Wilson. Dalton has been a big reason why our offense has even been relevant. We haven't had a good run game other than the last half of last year. Dalton has only had above average weapons ONE year, and he had stats that Wilson will NEVER have.

Without a team like the Seahawks Wilson would be considered an average QB

Extremely debatable. The position is very slim pickens.

If you were to ask Seahawks fans if they wanted Dalton over Wilson, you wouldn't even get a biased homer answer because the answer itself is pretty obvious. It's not a slight on ours or a compliment to theirs, it's a plain simple fact.

Just because a QB has a lot of talent around him and doesn't have to throw the ball much does not mean he is not a good QB.

I remember when Roethlisberger was a rookie and only threw the ball about 20 times a game. Lot's of people claimed he was just a "game manager" and could never put up big yardage numbers or win games with his arm alone. Even though I hate the asshole I have to give him credit for being one of the top QBs in the league.

(06-27-2015, 06:19 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Lol Wilson rarely has any kind of production. And your insane if you think that Dalton still had better weapons if you include injuries. Wilson is a game manager 100% him only having five 300+ games in his career including the playoffs. Wilson isn't even in the top 10 QBs. Romo, Rivers, Ryan, and even people like Newton (who I don't even think is in the top 10) is better than Wilson. Dalton has been a big reason why our offense has even been relevant. We haven't had a good run game other than the last half of last year. Dalton has only had above average weapons ONE year, and he had stats that Wilson will NEVER have.

Without a team like the Seahawks Wilson would be considered an average QB

So, Andy is a good QB because he can only put up volume numbers after being surrounded by a good team. Wilson is overrated (lol) because he's surrounded by a good team? Uhhh...okay.

Every fact points to RW being much better than Dalton, yet you're going to tell the guy posting real facts that he needs to provide "proof" (he already has multiple times) when you're the one that is basing your entire argument on some hypothetical situation where RW is in a different system. What?! Hahahahahaha this is honestly just funny more than anything. "Hey buddy, you better provide even more facts if you want to go up against my insane, biased, conjecture based opinions!!!"

Oh, it's Brownshoe in an Andy debate, nevermind. **** logic and unbiased reasoning.

It's not a slight on Andy to admit that RW is a very good NFL QB and is one of the best in the league for the scheme in place in Seattle. RW is really good. Andy is....somewhere between bad and good. Meh, deal with it.

(06-27-2015, 07:15 PM)djs7685 Wrote: So, Andy is a good QB because he can only put up volume numbers after being surrounded by a good team. Wilson is overrated (lol) because he's surrounded by a good team? Uhhh...okay.

Every fact points to RW being much better than Dalton, yet you're going to tell the guy posting real facts that he needs to provide "proof" (he already has multiple times) when you're the one that is basing your entire argument on some hypothetical situation where RW is in a different system. What?! Hahahahahaha this is honestly just funny more than anything. "Hey buddy, you better provide even more facts if you want to go up against my insane, biased, conjecture based opinions!!!"

Oh, it's Brownshoe in an Andy debate, nevermind. **** logic and unbiased reasoning.

It's not a slight on Andy to admit that RW is a very good NFL QB and is one of the best in the league for the scheme in place in Seattle. RW is really good. Andy is....somewhere between bad and good. Meh, deal with it.

Dalton has only had one year worse than Wilson, and that was only because Dalton didn't have anyone on offense to help him. He had Green for about half the year, and he had Hill as the starter for about half the year. Wilson has not shown that he can do anything other than be a game manager. His first couple of years he didn't even have bad receivers either.


Production is what wins you games nothing else. When a QB let's his team do all the production (like Wilson does) he's nothing more than a game manager. Most all of Wilsons production is a by product of the rush game too (something Dalton has only had for a half of a year). That's why Wilson has had the highest amount of play action passes in the league. Dalton has to go on the field and move the offense with his arm. If the offense scores it's mostly because of Dalton (there are exceptions, but most of the time this is the case).

Wilson's games that he threw for 300 or more yards: 5
Wilson's games that he threw for 200 or less yards: 23

Dalton's games that he threw for 300 or more yards: 14
Dalton's games that he threw for 200 or less yards: 22 (he had 7 just last year too)

You can post 300 yard games all you want. That, passing TD's (by 7), and yards per game (23 more) are the only meaningful stats that Andy outpaces Wilson in since both have been in the league. Andy has had far better weapons over his career than Wilson. I've listed Wilson's receiving corps, and they're a bunch of role players and journeyman. Hardin only played 1-2 meaningful games there, and he was easily the Seahags' best weapon.

Wilson has thrown half as many picks, averages almost a yard more per passing attempt, has a career passer rating around 15 points higher than Andy, and has rushed for 1250 yards more. Andy's nowhere near the QB that Wilson has been since both have been in the league. The QB stats and advanced QB stats prove this point. You don't even want to go into the Playoffs, because Wilson destroys Dalton in every meaningful category.

You may dislike Wilson, but the league consensus is that Wilson is a top 6-8 guy, and his star is ascending. 2015 wwith Jimmy Graham should elevate Wilson's raw numbers to a point where you will have zero arguments. I'm not even a fan of the guy, but he's damn good, and the Bengals would be lucky to have him.

(06-27-2015, 09:12 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: You can post 300 yard games all you want.  That, passing TD's (by 7), and yards per game (23 more) are the only meaningful stats that Andy outpaces Wilson in since both have been in the league.  Andy has had far better weapons over his career than Wilson.  I've listed Wilson's receiving corps, and they're a bunch of role players and journeyman.  Hardin only played 1-2 meaningful games there, and he was easily the Seahags' best weapon.  

Wilson has thrown half as many picks, averages almost a yard more per passing attempt, has a career passer rating around 15 points higher than Andy, and has rushed for 1250 yards more.  Andy's nowhere near the QB that Wilson has been since both have been in the league.  The QB stats and advanced QB stats prove this point.  You don't even want to go into the Playoffs, because Wilson destroys Dalton in every meaningful category.

You may dislike Wilson, but the league consensus is that Wilson is a top 6-8 guy, and his star is ascending.   2015 wwith Jimmy Graham should elevate Wilson's raw numbers to a point where you will have zero arguments.   I'm not even a fan of the guy, but he's damn good, and the Bengals would be lucky to have him.

Wilson has had better weapons than Dalton. He's had Percy Harvin, and Golden Tate as his top 2 receivers his first two years. Tate has shown that he is a beast of a receiver and Harvin is a good receiver too. He has had one of the best RBs in the league too. Dalton had Green and who else? His best #2 was in 2013 and he only played for one year pretty much. Daltons weapons have been way overrated his whole career. A lot of people that I talk to think that he had Chad and TO along with Green and that's why they think we have had a better offense than what reality is.

(06-27-2015, 06:19 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Lol Wilson rarely has any kind of production. And your insane if you think that Dalton still had better weapons if you include injuries. Wilson is a game manager 100% him only having five 300+ games in his career including the playoffs. Wilson isn't even in the top 10 QBs. Romo, Rivers, Ryan, and even people like Newton (who I don't even think is in the top 10) is better than Wilson. Dalton has been a big reason why our offense has even been relevant. We haven't had a good run game other than the last half of last year. Dalton has only had above average weapons ONE year, and he had stats that Wilson will NEVER have.

Without a team like the Seahawks Wilson would be considered an average QB

(06-27-2015, 08:07 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Dalton has only had one year worse than Wilson, and that was only because Dalton didn't have anyone on offense to help him. He had Green for about half the year, and he had Hill as the starter for about half the year. Wilson has not shown that he can do anything other than be a game manager. His first couple of years he didn't even have bad receivers either.


Production is what wins you games nothing else. When a QB let's his team do all the production (like Wilson does) he's nothing more than a game manager. Most all of Wilsons production is a by product of the rush game too (something Dalton has only had for a half of a year). That's why Wilson has had the highest amount of play action passes in the league. Dalton has to go on the field and move the offense with his arm. If the offense scores it's mostly because of Dalton (there are exceptions, but most of the time this is the case).

Wilson's games that he threw for 300 or more yards: 5
Wilson's games that he threw for 200 or less yards: 23

Dalton's games that he threw for 300 or more yards: 14
Dalton's games that he threw for 200 or less yards: 22 (he had 7 just last year too)

If you account for total yards, Wilson has actually out produced Dalton since both came into the league. Passing +Rushing = Wilson by about 100 yards over the three year period. So Wilson has actually been more productive from a raw yardage total. You're losing this argument.........badly.

I'd keep Dalton and Green, but it's a much harder choice than it should be. Wilson is clearly an upgrade from Dalton, but if I'm going to trade a top 5 receiver for some dude who I've barely heard of, I'd like a bit better of a QB than him to make up for it. I still have my fingers crossed that Andy can turn the corner this season.

(06-27-2015, 05:19 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Russell Wilson is already a top 6-8 QB in the league.  Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Luck (the other guy homers love to hate on), Big Ben, Wilson, Bree's, Romo/Rivers.  Now that Jimmy Graham is in town, look for Wilson's raw stats to improve.  Your flawed argument will get weaker and weaker the next couple of seasons.  Daltonwill never be the talent that Wilson is.  He doesn't have the arm, the legs, the calm under pressure, or the outward leadership traits that Wilson exudes.  It doesn't mean Dalton is terrible, just that he isn't close to being in the same league as Wilson.  Face it, the Bengals have a Ryan Fitzpatrick clone or a poor man's Matt Ryan starting at QB.

You have just lost all credibility....not that you had much to being with.....

(06-27-2015, 09:27 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: If you account for total yards, Wilson has actually out produced Dalton since both came into the league. Passing +Rushing = Wilson by about 100 yards over the three year period. So Wilson has actually been more productive from a raw yardage total. You're losing this argument.........badly.

Yeah, but, uhhh yards only really matter when it's Andy producing them!

....or something. Brownshoes schtick is becoming very tired and mulligan-esque.

(06-27-2015, 09:52 PM)Stewy Wrote: You have just lost all credibility....not that you had much to being with.....

So tell me then, what part of that was wrong?  Wilson has a Top 7 passer rating overall for the years he's been in the league.  Wilson also threatens defenses with his legs, although he's not strictly an athlete playing QB with limited passing skills.  He plays well, doesn't turn it over, and is an obvious leader.  If he's not at the back end of the Top 8, who is?  Chime in and give us some reasons for your difference of opinion.  How about some stats?  Smart ass comments add nothing.  If Brownshoe were to post some legitimate stats to sway me, I might be swayed.  The same goes for you.  Show us what you have, other than an affinity for cartoon characters...

(06-27-2015, 05:19 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Russell Wilson is already a top 6-8 QB in the league.  Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Luck (the other guy homers love to hate on), Big Ben, Wilson, Bree's, Romo/Rivers.  Now that Jimmy Graham is in town, look for Wilson's raw stats to improve.  Your flawed argument will get weaker and weaker the next couple of seasons.  Daltonwill never be the talent that Wilson is.  He doesn't have the arm, the legs, the calm under pressure, or the outward leadership traits that Wilson exudes.  It doesn't mean Dalton is terrible, just that he isn't close to being in the same league as Wilson.  Face it, the Bengals have a Ryan Fitzpatrick clone or a poor man's Matt Ryan starting at QB.

The real trade here is AJ Green for Russel Wilson. Don't kid yourself with this Dalton for Wilson crap.

Wilson > Dalton
AJ >>> Quick

Wilson is a top 6-8 QB, sure
AJ is a top 4 receiver

Lets say AJ is caliber A, Wilson is Caliber B, Andy is caliber C and Quick is caliber D.
(You do agree AJ is better than Wilson is better than Dalton is better than Quick no?)

You would trade A and C for B and D????

not a smart trade.

Besides, our coaching staff would F up Wilsons game royally.

(06-28-2015, 12:57 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: So tell me then, what part of that was wrong?

You didn't sound stupid until you called Dalton a Fitzpatrick clone.

(06-28-2015, 01:02 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: The real trade here is AJ Green for Russel Wilson. Don't kid yourself with this Dalton for Wilson crap.

Wilson > Dalton
AJ >>> Quick

Wilson is a top 6-8 QB, sure
AJ is a top 4 receiver

Lets say AJ is caliber A, Wilson is Caliber B, Andy is caliber C and Quick is caliber D.
(You do agree AJ is better than Wilson is better than Dalton is better than Quick no?)

You would trade A and C for B and D????

not a smart trade.

Besides, our coaching staff would F up Wilsons game royally.

I agree that Quick is unproven, and of the lowest quality of the four players, albeit with upside. I also agree that AJ is the best raw talent of the bunch. I do think the talent gap between Green and Wilson is smaller than the talent gap between Wilson and Dalton. That's just my opinion, and your mileage may vary.

Substitute Jordan Matthews, or Allen Robinson for Quick and the "trade" gets a bit more interesting. The caveat on all this would be look what Wilson has already done with inferior receivers. Hardin only played two meaningful games, Tate was pushed into a WR1 role with WR2 talent, and the rest of Seattle's receivers are role players. Yet, despite that, Wilson puts up pretty good numbers in a run first offense. A Bengals receiving corps with Quick instead of Green profiles similarly to what Seattle had last year. If Jones and Eifert are healthy I'd give the talent edge to Cincy. Quick has a good deal of potential, and has flashed it, but was slow to pick up the NFL game and then got hurt.

(06-28-2015, 01:20 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Maybe It was a bit harsh, but they share similar size, mobility, arm strength, and propensity for interceptions.   The classic limited upside QB's.   I'd argue that Fitzpatrick has played on worse teams than The Dalton Bengals, so he's usually playing from behind.  Hence, the gunslinging and turnovers.  Their playing styles and stats are remarkably similar.

Consider this:  

Andy Dalton season averages since 2011.  (64 games total)
Yards.         TD.           INT.          Passer Rating.   Comp %.     Yards/ Attempt
3689.5     24.75.     16.5.            85.2.                     61.6.           7.0

Ryan FitzPatrick season averages since 2011 (55 games total)
Yards.              TD.           INT.         Passer Rating.  Comp%.    Yards/ Attempt
3042.25         19.75.       14.75.     84.925.              61.925.     7.1

Slap another nine games into 2013/14 to account for Fitzpatrick's injuries and those averages would be even closer.Giving Fitzpatrick his average performance in 2013 and 2014 for the games he missed due to injury, his numbers extrapolated over 66 games would be:

Yards.        TD.            INT.        Passer Rating.        Comp %.     Yards/ attempt
3528.         22.5.         16.75.    84.925.                   61.925.        7.1

While there's no way we could know what Ryan's actual performances would have been had he played those nine games, giving him his average performance in 2013 for the missed 2013 games, and the average 2014 performance for the 2014 games ends up giving him eerily similar numbers to Andy for a 66 game period.  Either way, Fitzpatrick and Dalton are closer comps than some on here thought.  They play a similar game, and have similar size, weight, arm strength, mobility, and tendencies.

(06-28-2015, 01:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You didn't sound stupid until you called Dalton a Fitzpatrick clone.

See post just above for a comparison. All the stats came from Pro Football Reference. I had to do some extrapolating for 2013 (5 games) and 2014 (4games) when Fitzpatrick got hurt, but the 64 game averages for Andy and Fitzy are pretty similar. Using the raw numbers (55games) for Fitzy they're also similar, albeit a bit fuzzy because of the missed games due to injury.

Tell me what you think?

(06-28-2015, 01:20 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Maybe It was a bit harsh, but they share similar size, mobility, arm strength, and propensity for interceptions.   The classic limited upside QB's.   I'd argue that Fitzpatrick has played on worse teams than The Dalton Bengals, so he's usually playing from behind.  Hence, the gunslinging and turnovers.  Their playing styles are remarkably similar.

Consider this:  

Andy Dalton season averages since 2011.  (64 games total)
Yards.         TD.           INT.          Passer Rating.  
3689.5     24.75.     16.5.         85.2

Ryan FitzPatrick season averages since 2011 (55 games total)
Yards.         TD.           INT.         Passer Rating
3042.25         19.75.       14.75.     84.925

Slap another nine games into 2013/14 for Fitzpatrick and those averages would be even closer.

Dalton has had to play a lot harder defenses in those years. In 2011 and 2012 Pittsburgh had the #1 defense, Baltimore had the #3 defense in 2011 and is normally in the top 10 or at least close to it.  Shoot even Cleveland has been in the top 10 defenses 2 years. 41% (27 INTs) of Dalton's INTs are from his own division, and most of his bad games. Fitzpatrick has been in the AFC south (horrible defenses), and the AFC east (horrible defenses at the time).