(07-21-2016, 12:32 AM)Gohards Wrote: Unfair to say - He is a young kid and has unlimited potential. Do you remember his rookie year? I bet at the end of that season he was not your "least favorite Bengal." He is our #1 back like it or not. When he runs for 1,400 plus this year dont go back on your word

Not saying he doesn't have the potential to possibly do it, but he will not likely get the opportunity. 1,400 yards at 5.0 YPC is 280 carries. Not sure he gets that many on a team that does a 2 RB approach and has both Green and Eifert.

Basically Gio would have to suck, making him get less touches, and then Hill would have to be amazing over the entire season. Not sure it happens. Hill has had 222 carries and 223 carries in his two years.

(07-21-2016, 01:21 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Not saying he doesn't have the potential to possibly do it, but he will not likely get the opportunity. 1,400 yards at 5.0 YPC is 280 carries. Not sure he gets that many on a team that does a 2 RB approach and has both Green and Eifert.

Basically Gio would have to suck, making him get less touches, and then Hill would have to be amazing over the entire season. Not sure it happens. Hill has had 222 carries and 223 carries in his two years.

I just feel like everybody has given up on him after a sophomore slump. Cmon, everyone is allowed at least 1 bad season.

(07-21-2016, 01:50 AM)Gohards Wrote: I just feel like everybody has given up on him after a sophomore slump. Cmon, everyone is allowed at least 1 bad season.

That wasn't a slump, that was a canyon. He was basically a slightly worse version of Trent Richardson's rookie year last year... but I still understand what you're saying. I would love for him to go back to the guy who was the second half of 2014, but that's also part of the problem. He was that great RB for 1/2 of a season, and a different RB for the other 1 1/2 seasons.

Hope he does great, but I will say I sure am glad Gio's around.

He regressed drastically based on expectations from pundits around the league.

(07-20-2016, 09:08 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Credit to 'Holic for sharing this piece.  It shows much to the character of Hill, who is obviously feeling some duress for the fumble in the playoff loss.  I say much to his character because he is ready to turn the page, and get back to work.  His goal?  Helping this team to win a championship.

Some competitors might let a catastrophic error weigh on them differently, get withdrawn, shy away from comment.  Not J. Hill, no sir!  He's ready to get back in there, and show the NFL world that he is much better than his last mistake.  Credit to Jeremy Hill.

On another note, really like the excerpt from the AJ Green article.  Good to see star players being so selfless, as to leave their comfort zone, and speak outwardly to benefit the youth of the team.  That is leadership.  That is what championship teams are made of.

To be fair and play devils advocate I haven't read one article yet where any player ever said 'I just want to be a complete waste of roster space and have all the fans hate me forever..'

(07-21-2016, 02:09 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That wasn't a slump, that was a canyon. He was basically a slightly worse version of Trent Richardson's rookie year last year... but I still understand what you're saying. I would love for him to go back to the guy who was the second half of 2014, but that's also part of the problem. He was that great RB for 1/2 of a season, and a different RB for the other 1 1/2 seasons.

Hope he does great, but I will say I sure am glad Gio's around.

The first half of the 2014 season, he was not bad at all. There was never a point in time i said "'man that hill guy is really bad". He just was not used often.

(07-21-2016, 03:43 PM)Gohards Wrote: The first half of the 2014 season, he was not bad at all. There was never a point in time i said "'man that hill guy is really bad". He just was not used often.

First seven games of the season, he had a 3.9 YPC.

Never really said "man that Hill guy is really bad", but wasn't impressed by the pick. He's run for under 4.0 YPC for 3/4ths of his career.

My main concern is that possibly the 3/4ths is closer to what he really is and the other 1/4th was a 2012 BJGE-type situation... In 2012 BJGE had a 5 game stretch where he led the NFL in rushing yards, going for 543 yards on 106 carries (5.12 YPC). The rest of his career with the Bengals he went for 3.33 YPC.

(07-21-2016, 06:06 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: First seven games of the season, he had a 3.9 YPC.

Never really said "man that Hill guy is really bad", but wasn't impressed by the pick. He's run for under 4.0 YPC for 3/4ths of his career.

My main concern is that possibly the 3/4ths is closer to what he really is and the other 1/4th was a 2012 BJGE-type situation... In 2012 BJGE had a 5 game stretch where he led the NFL in rushing yards, going for 543 yards on 106 carries (5.12 YPC). The rest of his career with the Bengals he went for 3.33 YPC.

Jeremy seems to be held to a slightly different standard than Gio for some reason. In Gio's 1st 2 seasons, he failed to reach 4 ypc in 15 of his 29 games. He only averaged 4.1 and 4.0 overall in those seasons. 

I'm a huge fan of Gio and Jeremy, but they've both had stretches where they didn't play well and didn't look like starter material. They are also two very talented backs who are capable of making big plays and changing the momentum of games when they are on.

I think we really saw Gio come into his own in year 3, and I'm hoping for the same with Jeremy. Having both of them producing at a high, consistent level will mean great things for this offense.

(07-21-2016, 08:25 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Jeremy seems to be held to a slightly different standard than Gio for some reason. In Gio's 1st 2 seasons, he failed to reach 4 ypc in 15 of his 29 games. He only averaged 4.1 and 4.0 overall in those seasons. 

I'm a huge fan of Gio and Jeremy, but they've both had stretches were they didn't play well and didn't look like starter material. They are also two very talented backs who are capable of making big plays and changing the momentum of games when they are on.

I think we really saw Gio come into his own in year 3, and I'm hoping for the same with Jeremy. Having both of them producing at a high, consistent level will mean great things for this offense.

Yeah, but after his first season people were hyping Hill to be a 2,000 yard rusher and stuff like that. Or talking about how he needed the ball 30 times a game.

Nobody did that with Gio.

I think that's where the difference comes, Holic. With hype comes raised expectations, and when raised expectations aren't met, they get more harsh review.


- - - - - - - - -

Olympian A is expected to get 7th place out of 15 people. He ends up getting 10th.
Olympian B is expected to get 1st place out of 15 people. He ends up getting 9th.

Who would get more negative comments? Obviously B, people had higher expectations.

(07-21-2016, 08:38 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yeah, but after his first season people were hyping Hill to be a 2,000 yard rusher and stuff like that. Or talking about how he needed the ball 30 times a game.

Nobody did that with Gio.

I think that's where the difference comes, Holic. With hype comes raised expectations, and when raised expectations aren't met, they get more harsh review.


- - - - - - - - -

Olympian A is expected to get 7th place out of 15 people. He ends up getting 10th.
Olympian B is expected to get 1st place out of 15 people. He ends up getting 9th.

Who would get more negative comments? Obviously B, people had higher expectations.

I'm one of those that had high expectations for Jeremy. Really, I still do because I think he has that type of talent. 

He did struggle last year, but many players have done the same in year 2. Now, if he continues that in year 3 and we don't see any growth/progression from last year...then I'll be pretty critical as well.

Hold onto the ball!

(07-21-2016, 08:52 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I'm one of those that had high expectations for Jeremy. Really, I still do because I think he has that type of talent. 

He did struggle last year, but may players have done the same in year 2. Now, if he continues that in year 3 and we don't see any growth/progression from last year...then I'll be pretty critical as well.

He was my keeper last year.  

But yeah, I really do hope he comes out and destroys 2016. Would be great to have a top-5 type RB, would make things real easy on the passing game, too.

(07-21-2016, 01:21 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Not saying he doesn't have the potential to possibly do it, but he will not likely get the opportunity. 1,400 yards at 5.0 YPC is 280 carries. Not sure he gets that many on a team that does a 2 RB approach and has both Green and Eifert.

Basically Gio would have to suck, making him get less touches, and then Hill would have to be amazing over the entire season. Not sure it happens. Hill has had 222 carries and 223 carries in his two years.

I think Gio is the change-of-pace and third down back, so I think Hill could get that many carries, especially because I don't think we'll be behind in too many games, which will have us playing ball control.  

Gio is a special player, but not the kind you want to give the ball to 20 to 30 times a game.  

I understand that Zampese knows Dalton's strengths and will throw a lot, as well as finding ways to use Gio, but I also think he establishes a strong run game because he realizes how difficult that will make the offense to defend.

(07-21-2016, 06:06 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: First seven games of the season, he had a 3.9 YPC.

Never really said "man that Hill guy is really bad", but wasn't impressed by the pick. He's run for under 4.0 YPC for 3/4ths of his career.

My main concern is that possibly the 3/4ths is closer to what he really is and the other 1/4th was a 2012 BJGE-type situation... In 2012 BJGE had a 5 game stretch where he led the NFL in rushing yards, going for 543 yards on 106 carries (5.12 YPC). The rest of his career with the Bengals he went for 3.33 YPC.

He didn't start getting the majority of the carries until midseason, so it's hard to base it on a small sample size when he doesn't have a chance to get into a rhythm.  

(07-21-2016, 09:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: He was my keeper last year.  

But yeah, I really do hope he comes out and destroys 2016. Would be great to have a top-5 type RB, would make things real easy on the passing game, too.

Drafted him first overall and still managed to win my league because I'm the greatest fantasy football manager in the history of brain injuries 

I think he could destroy it this season, but I think he'll be on a very short leash, so one fumble, he gets benched, and you're screwed.

I could see him with at least 120 every game, and, even if he did get benched, I still think he comes in to vulture touchdowns, which would keep his value at a decent level.

I've seen drafts with him not going until the fifth round, but then this year doesn't seem to have many backs projected to go too high, so who knows. I think he'll be a steal that late.

(07-21-2016, 06:06 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: First seven games of the season, he had a 3.9 YPC.

Never really said "man that Hill guy is really bad", but wasn't impressed by the pick. He's run for under 4.0 YPC for 3/4ths of his career.

My main concern is that possibly the 3/4ths is closer to what he really is and the other 1/4th was a 2012 BJGE-type situation... In 2012 BJGE had a 5 game stretch where he led the NFL in rushing yards, going for 543 yards on 106 carries (5.12 YPC). The rest of his career with the Bengals he went for 3.33 YPC.

Not buying that comparison. Hill showed more explosiveness and pure speed in his rookie year than Benny ever did. I remember those 5 games in 2012 and Benny was just running through massive holes. Hill actually created some of his big gainers by juking and outrunning defenders.

Not sure what happened last year, but he looked tentative and slow to hit holes...when there was one. Fwiw, after a couple big games early, Gio averaged around 3.5 YPC over the last 7 games. So I agree with Holic that run blocking may be an issue again, as it has been for most of the last decade.

To the OP - Despite the down year, you can't knock the kid's spirit. He loves the Bengals.

(07-21-2016, 11:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not buying that comparison. Hill showed more explosiveness and pure speed in his rookie year than Benny ever did. I remember those 5 games in 2012 and Benny was just running through massive holes. Hill actually created some of his big gainers by juking and outrunning defenders.

Not sure what happened last year, but he looked tentative and slow to hit holes...when there was one. Fwiw, after a couple big games early, Gio averaged around 3.5 YPC over the last 7 games. So I agree with Holic that run blocking may be an issue again, as it has been for most of the last decade.

To the OP - Despite the down year, you can't knock the kid's spirit. He loves the Bengals.

He also didn't seem interested in trying to break tackles and went down very easily.

Hill Average Yards After Contact..
2014: 2.29 (4th among RB)
2015: 1.46 (43rd among RB)
(Gio 2015: 1.9)

Not exactly sure what was wrong, and as I said before, sure hope he gets it right. Just significantly less confident him him coming into 2016 than I was 2015. Tempering expectations quite a bit.

(07-22-2016, 12:00 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: He also didn't seem interested in trying to break tackles and went down very easily.

Hill Average Yards After Contact..
2014: 2.29 (4th among RB)
2015: 1.46 (43rd among RB)
(Gio 2015: 1.9)

Not exactly sure what was wrong, and as I said before, sure hope he gets it right. Just significantly less confident him him coming into 2016 than I was 2015. Tempering expectations quite a bit.

He looked like an entirely different back last year. I'm hoping it was injury related. I'm a big Hill guy, but even I will admit I'm not nearly as confident in him this year. In the end I do think he's better than what we saw last year, but probably not the All-Pro Corey 2.0 that many thought he'd be. 

(07-22-2016, 12:14 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: He looked like an entirely different back last year. I'm hoping it was injury related. I'm a big Hill guy, but even I will admit I'm not nearly as confident in him this year. In the end I do think he's better than what we saw last year, but probably not the All-Pro Corey 2.0 that many thought he'd be. 

He has said so himself that it was his first offseason and he didn't really know how to train in the offseason so this year he has been going a lot of different workouts and things like that so I feel like he will be back to 2014 form this year

(07-21-2016, 08:25 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Jeremy seems to be held to a slightly different standard than Gio for some reason. In Gio's 1st 2 seasons, he failed to reach 4 ypc in 15 of his 29 games. He only averaged 4.1 and 4.0 overall in those seasons. 

I'm a huge fan of Gio and Jeremy, but they've both had stretches where they didn't play well and didn't look like starter material. They are also two very talented backs who are capable of making big plays and changing the momentum of games when they are on.

I think we really saw Gio come into his own in year 3, and I'm hoping for the same with Jeremy. Having both of them producing at a high, consistent level will mean great things for this offense.

This.  And I would also point to Eifert's performance in his third season.  Dalton's performance in his third season.  Marvin Jones' performance in his third season.  And Gio last year, in his third season.  I think many refer to year 3 as the real evaluation period for a player.  The Bengal's players have been afforded more time to develop here in the last 5+ years, because they didn't NEED rookies to come in and be an improvement over their existing roster.  

Running back is one of the very few positions where rookies often make a huge impact.  I think Hill's size and strength combined with Gio's elusiveness and hands will finally be utilized in a less predictable fashion this year.  Hill needs to catch a few more balls out of the backfield.  Gio needs to be used between the tackles.  Sometimes, you could see the defense key on certain plays based on which RB was on the field.  And by going Hill, Hill, Gio, Hill, Gio...on drives, it was easy to scheme.  

I would also like to see them both on the field with Gio going in motion and out as a receiving target.  

Here's to hoping the 2016-17 season is the one where all cylinders fire...especially out of the backfield.  

(07-22-2016, 12:00 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: He also didn't seem interested in trying to break tackles and went down very easily.

Hill Average Yards After Contact..
2014: 2.29 (4th among RB)
2015: 1.46 (43rd among RB)
(Gio 2015: 1.9)

Not exactly sure what was wrong, and as I said before, sure hope he gets it right. Just significantly less confident him him coming into 2016 than I was 2015. Tempering expectations quite a bit.

Interesting stat, and you certainly got that feeling watching the games.  I have found out in previous years that a lot of players that I felt underperformed were playing through a pretty serious injury.  Robert Geathers played the second half of one season with a fractured pelvis (ouch!).  MJ has continuing ankle problems last year.  However, I never heard anything regarding Hill although I do remember seeing him take some serious shots to his knees.  

(07-24-2016, 10:06 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: This.  And I would also point to Eifert's performance in his third season.  Dalton's performance in his third season.  Marvin Jones' performance in his third season.  And Gio last year, in his third season.  I think many refer to year 3 as the real evaluation period for a player.  The Bengal's players have been afforded more time to develop here in the last 5+ years, because they didn't NEED rookies to come in and be an improvement over their existing roster.  

Running back is one of the very few positions where rookies often make a huge impact.  I think Hill's size and strength combined with Gio's elusiveness and hands will finally be utilized in a less predictable fashion this year.  Hill needs to catch a few more balls out of the backfield.  Gio needs to be used between the tackles.  Sometimes, you could see the defense key on certain plays based on which RB was on the field.  And by going Hill, Hill, Gio, Hill, Gio...on drives, it was easy to scheme.  

I would also like to see them both on the field with Gio going in motion and out as a receiving target.  

Here's to hoping the 2016-17 season is the one where all cylinders fire...especially out of the backfield.  

You make some very good points.  Solid post.  It's funny how many rookie running backs come in and tear up the league, only to be forgotten about.