(07-03-2015, 07:47 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: I think most would agree, if not injured, Carson would have at least two playoff wins under his belt.
Can you agree with the idea that due to Andy's inconsistency, he deserves a demotion.?

No I can not.  Because I don't see it as Andy's inconsistency, I see it as the whole TEAM's inconsistency.  The whole team has not shown up in the playoffs or primetime.  I remember Pacman's inconsistency costing us that first Texans game.  Gio's inconsistency when he fumbled on the goal line vs San Diego.  Both of those were huge momentum shifts that Dalton is completely clear of fault.  

My point is they've all choked.  Everyone likes to point out how Andy only has 1 passing touchdown in his 4 playoff games.  But no one will phrase it as "none of our receivers have gotten open in the red zone in 4 playoff games".

Football is a team sport.  So until some film guru like Mike Mayock breaks down every snap of our 4 playoff games and says that 21 guys are doing their jobs perfectly, and Dalton is missing every opportunity, I'm gonna continue to view the losses as team losses and not cast the blame on Dalton.

(07-03-2015, 07:47 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: I think most would agree, if not injured, Carson would have at least two playoff wins under his belt.
Can you agree with the idea that due to Andy's inconsistency, he deserves a demotion.?

Hammer if this team was a juggernaut (or even something close to one) before Dalton arrived I'd be carrying that flag right beside you !

Last I checked we had serious issues, the same issues basically, before Dalton joined up. Can't beat Pittsburgh, can't win in primetime, fold when we have to show up, when we need to kick ass we well ummmm can't.

Dalton is just another spoke on the choking wheel.

Does any of this mean that Dalton is the greatest thing since sliced bread ? NO I have serious doubts he's ever going to rise above little better than average.

But he's far from the only problem we have and isn't the only reason we choke under the lights/playoffs !

(07-03-2015, 10:26 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Hammer if this team was a juggernaut (or even something close to one) before Dalton arrived I'd be carrying that flag right beside you !

Last I checked we had serious issues, the same issues basically, before Dalton joined up. Can't beat Pittsburgh, can't win in primetime, fold when we have to show up, when we need to kick ass we well ummmm can't.

Dalton is just another spoke on the choking wheel.

Does any of this mean that Dalton is the greatest thing since sliced bread ? NO I have serious doubts he's ever going to rise above little better than average.

But he's far from the only problem we have and isn't the only reason we choke under the lights/playoffs !

What's funny is, he [Dalton] was considered to be clutch and unflappable at TCU....even leading the underdog Horned Frogs to a Rose Bowl victory over the Wisconsin Badgers, a game in which Dalton beat JJ Watt to the corner for a TD

(07-03-2015, 10:35 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: What's funny is, he [Dalton] was considered to be clutch and unflappable at TCU....even leading the underdog Horned Frogs to a Rose Bowl victory over the Wisconsin Badgers, a game in which Dalton beat JJ Watt to the corner for a TD

I remember watching that game.  I had no idea I'd be talking about Dalton as our starting QB today.  (He did play a hell of a Rose Bowl though)

(07-03-2015, 10:41 PM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: I remember watching that game.  I had no idea I'd be talking about Dalton as our starting QB today.  (He did play a hell of a Rose Bowl though)

Have to wonder what changes in a player, that can be considered so clutch and make big plays and important throws in college but can't in the NFL....Is it just a lack of talent? Or something more in the upstairs

(07-03-2015, 10:44 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Have to wonder what changes in a player, that can be considered so clutch and make big plays and important throws in college but can't in the NFL....Is it just a lack of talent? Or something more in the upstairs

Same (almost) level of competition, have to believe it's the mental aspect.  And of course coaching.  Lewislized....lol

(07-03-2015, 09:46 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I hope they're realistic enough. Honestly, i'd like nothing better than for him to light it up in preseason. I know it will cause all sorts of debate but it won't matter in terms of the depth chart. It would be nice to have the peace of mind, knowing there's a capable backup if the starter goes down. If he ends up being better than Dalton, great. It just means the team i root for has a better chance of going deep in the playoffs. I couldn't care less about which side is right or wrong.

100% agree. I hope McCarron turns out to be Tom Brady 2.0. Whatever helps this team win playoff games.

(07-04-2015, 01:22 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 100% agree. I hope McCarron turns out to be Tom Brady 2.0. Whatever helps this team win playoff games.

Everyone would like that.
I just don't see it as more than say a 1% chance.
Hope I'm wrong.

(07-03-2015, 10:44 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Have to wonder what changes in a player, that can be considered so clutch and make big plays and important throws in college but can't in the NFL....Is it just a lack of talent? Or something more in the upstairs

This has been my statement for awhile about Dalton. It's not a lack of skill. It's a lack mentally somewhere. Be it confidence, or whatever, something happens with our QBs and they just cave under pressure. Look at Palmer, he had the same issues with the can't win the big one thing. Goes to Arizona, gets the right coaching perhaps, or something changed and prior to his injury was one of the top QBs in the league, making Arizona look unbeatable. 

If Dalton leaves, I wouldn't be surprised to see him in a new system with new coaching and a boost to his confidence having success.

(07-03-2015, 07:47 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: I think most would agree, if not injured, Carson would have at least two playoff wins under his belt.
Can you agree with the idea that due to Andy's inconsistency, he deserves a demotion.?

Why would I believe that? He couldn't beat the Steelrs to get into the playoffs. Couldn't beat the Jets in the playoffs.

He went 4-6 against the Steelers here.

In 06 he lost to the Colts, Broncos, and Steelers. All teams he would have played in the playoffs in 05. He's NEVER beaten the Broncos and only won against the Colts once. Has a record of 1-8 against both teams. He has never beaten Peyton Manning on any team he's been on. Went 2-3 against playoff teams in 05.

So no. I don't believe that. Palmer had chances to get this team over the top, and never did. In 06 he had 3 chances to make it to the playoffs, didn't get it done. Never made the clutch play in the big game. Plus, his primetime numbers are pretty similar to Dalton's.

"While Carson Palmer was at the helm, he completed 224 passes out of 404 attempts (55.5%) for 2,385 yards, 12 touchdowns, and eight interceptions. Carson Palmer had a quarterback rating of 74.5 in primetime (excluding the Steelers and Jets playoff games)..."
If you want to read how Marvin Lewis' quarterbacks have done in Cincinnati and after, check out this: http://stripehype.com/2014/11/14/marvin-lewis-quarterbacks-primetime/

In case you want the playoff numbers as well, Palmer completed 243 passes out of 441 attempts (55.1%) for 2,597 yards, 13 touchdowns, and nine interceptions. A quarterback rating of 73.9.

So no. I have zero reason to believe he would have won "at least two" playoff games. he came back after the 05 season. Played well, went strong, and couldn't win big games when they needed him to. And don't try to blame the injury, he became his normal self after that and played at a high level afterwards.

(07-04-2015, 03:11 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: This has been my statement for awhile about Dalton. It's not a lack of skill. It's a lack mentally somewhere. Be it confidence, or whatever, something happens with our QBs and they just cave under pressure. Look at Palmer, he had the same issues with the can't win the big one thing. Goes to Arizona, gets the right coaching perhaps, or something changed and prior to his injury was one of the top QBs in the league, making Arizona look unbeatable. 

If Dalton leaves, I wouldn't be surprised to see him in a new system with new coaching and a boost to his confidence having success.

Dalton is like an early on Drew Brees. Look at Brees' games in the beginning of his career. He makes a ton of mistakes and throws like Dalton makes. Dalton can be just as good as Brees became. But he can also throw as many turnovers as Brees has.

(07-04-2015, 03:11 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Look at Palmer, he had the same issues with the can't win the big one thing. Goes to Arizona, gets the right coaching perhaps, or something changed and prior to his injury was one of the top QBs in the league, making Arizona look unbeatable. 

Palmer never even made the playoffs with the Cards.  He did start 6-0 last year, but he only played one playoff team in that stretch.

(07-03-2015, 03:01 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: The problem is that everyone here agrees Dalton has played like a bum but the REASON for his inferior performance by many on here is excused because Marvin is the head coach.

Since you are also in agreement why don't you give us the reason why he has played like a bum? You like to dish out observations that everyone knows but give absolutely no rationale as to why.  This whole debate is about whether we can blame Dalton for his inferior play or not. I am of the opinion that he isn't a very good QB to begin with and his playoff performances only exemplifies that. Others think no QB can succeed under Marvin and therefore Dalton gets a free pass and he is excused from any blame.

What's your take ole wise one?

So, wait, are you finally agreeing that the whole team has played poorly in the playoffs, and not just Dalton?>

What is your explanation for this ole wise one?  You like to dish out your observation that Dalton is the one and only reason the bengals have lost a playoff game but give absolutely no rationale why other than he is a bad player.  So I assume your same logic applies to every other player on the bengals, correct?  So there is your answer.  the entire team lacks what it takes to play well in the playoffs.

Palmer has won as many playoff games as the Bengals have in the 2000s. That number currently rests at zero.

(07-03-2015, 08:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You could blame the performance of the WR/TE's on Dalton. That would be fair. What about the defense? Dalton causes all those issues as well? What about the first 2 playoff games that - last I checked - Dalton didn't participate in? What about the 8 seasons of prime-time choke jobs before the Bengals drafted Dalton? 

If you blame the entire team's failures on Andy Dalton, then why do you even want Marvin Lewis gone? How can you say with a straight face that you want Marvin Lewis gone when you think it's so clear that the QB causes team-wide failure? It doesn't seem like it would be fair to judge Marvin when he is so crippled by his QB.

I'd love to see you answer each of these questions, but I have a feeling the only response you have is something about you being objective and me loving the QB. You might single out the first playoff game and mention Palmer's injury, but you won't answer anything about the 8 years of prime-time failure that preceded Dalton, and you won't answer why you want Marvin gone when it's so clear that the QB causes all of the playoff/prime-time problems.

I would like to take a crack at these....

- QB's performance is not solely just effecting the WR/TEs and their stats. Other things go on in-game that the QB is in control of that influence the running game as well.
- ADs 7+ turnovers in 4 games ABSOLUTELY effects the defense.
- The first two playoff games are irrelevant to AD's performances or the team's results.
- Those blaming the coach's poor performances from the 2005-2010 seasons need to stop living in the past. Marvin Lewis, and his staff, has become much better since the reboot in 2011 at game management, etc. Jay Gruden did have a silly game plan in that first game against the Texans to go away from the Bengals best player, but the on field performances are what the biggest problem was.
- No one within reason should be calling for Marvin Lewis' head in 2015. He is a much better coach than the 2010 version that should have been run out of town.
- No one should be blamed anyone on the Bengals for the Playoff loss to the Colts.
- AD was AWFUL... not just bad... AWFUL in the 3 previous playoff games. Anyone surprised by this at this point hasn't been watching with open eyes. He's a streaky player and as inconsistent as the weather. Period.
- What about 8 seasons of prime time choking? AGAIN, the coaching staff and team as a whole has been MUCH improved from 2011-present so that can't be laid on or off of them completely.
- Why can't the QB bail out the D when it matters most? Or turn around a tough first quarter? He hasn't shown the ability to when the pressure is on. Period.

- Bottom line for me: The team has all of the pieces to be successful, but has primarily lost in the playoffs because of an imbalance in talent/performances at the QB position. Since 2012 the Bengals have had one of the top 10 most talented rosters in the NFL. AD has squandered those years with terrible showings at the end of the seasons. The moxie and skillset that AJ McCarron brings has me excited for the future should AD bomb out again. I've seen this movie too many times before so I'm not placing any bets.

AD isn't complete trash. He has the ability to do well and be a key component of the team's success. For those having faith in him, that's a nice positive outlook. For those ready to look elsewhere, I understand that, too. It's the same thing I thought about Marvin for years... He CAN, but he DOESN'T. A players window isn't opened as large as a coach's.

(07-04-2015, 10:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So, wait, are you finally agreeing that the whole team has played poorly in the playoffs, and not just Dalton?>

What is your explanation for this ole wise one?  You like to dish out your observation that Dalton is the one and only reason the bengals have lost a playoff game but give absolutely no rationale why other than he is a bad player.  So I assume your same logic applies to every other player on the bengals, correct?  So there is your answer.  the entire team lacks what it takes to play well in the playoffs.

I see very few people solely blaming Dalton. But, he has been the majority of the problem in the playoff games. How could anyone who watched the games logically question that? The QB position, by it's nature, holds exponentially more weight than any other spot on the field. He's stunk. Not just been not good, but embarrassingly garbage. Tough to win like that. 

The Bengals have national awareness now and have for 10 years. On ESPN, Fox Sports, sports radio, forums, etc. people KNOW about the Bengals. People WATCH the Bengals and follow them with regularity all over the country because the media & the NFL give exposure. But nationally there are few, if any, AD defenders outside of a certain pocket of Bengals fans. You can find fans and defenders of lots of QBs outside of their market - even from opponents. The only people supporting AD are a certain pocket of Bengals fans. So, either those die hard supporters know something or see something that every other football fan doesn't, or they are homers and are acting on emotions and hopes..

(07-04-2015, 12:04 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I see very few people solely blaming Dalton. But, he has been the majority of the problem in the playoff games. How could anyone who watched the games logically question that? The QB position, by it's nature, holds exponentially more weight than any other spot on the field.

You answered your own question. Dalton wasn't the sole reason...and I contend maybe not even the majority. But due to his position, he has been the most visible. Therefore, his mistakes are magnified in the eyes of viewers.

(07-03-2015, 09:02 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The only HC in the NFL with an 0-6 playoff record (or worse) is Marvin Lewis.

I'm pretty sure he has the worst prime-time record of any coach as well. So yeah. Totally ridiculous to blame coaching. 

http://espn.go.com/blog/cincinnati-bengals/post/_/id/13139/bengals-marvin-lewis-prime-time-play-confounding

This article was written 11/7/14, he was 6-14 in prime time. Add in Denver and Pittsburgh and he's 7-15 in PT.

Like the article states add in playoffs and he's 6-19 under the bright lights. Add in the rest of last season and he's 7-21 !

Or 7 for 28 ! So .250

I'm not looking it up but going from memory he's what like 7 - 18 against the Steelers now. With only like 2 or 3 wins at PBS against them 13 tries including playoffs ! Every single victory we've had against the Steelers save one (2005) has come in a season in which the Steelers didn't make the playoffs. Telling huh ?

(07-04-2015, 12:13 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote:  Every single victory we've had against the Steelers save one (2005) has come in a season in which the Steelers didn't make the playoffs. Telling huh ?

In 2012 we played them with a playoff spot on the line and beat them.

(07-04-2015, 12:04 PM)PDub80 Wrote:  The only people supporting AD are a certain pocket of Bengals fans. So, either those die hard supporters know something or see something that every other football fan doesn't, or they are homers and are acting on emotions and hopes..

Actually pretty much every national expert I have seen ranks Dalton about the same way as most people here.  He is in the group from about 12 to 20 that can be shuffled up in any order.  He is a solid, proven starting QB.

There are a few extremists that say he is either elite or total garbage, but most people have him ranked solidly in the middle of the pack.

The only real difference is that many people here think that QBs ranked in the top 20 are easy to replace, while the rest of the NFL realizes that they are very rare and valuable.  That is why they get paid $15+ plus per year and are given long term deals.