After a quarter of the season, I think its fair to say. The difference in the talent and the coaching between this year and last year is very evident.

They let Reggie Nelson, Marvin Jones, Andre Smith, Sanu, Leon Hall, Emmanual Lamur, Wallace Gilberry, Vance Joseph, and Hugh Jackson walk.

I know each of those players/coaches have different circumstances around why they left, and some are justified, but how could we honestly think we were going to be better this year than last year?

Thats a CRAP TON of talent and roster depth. It kind of pisses me off looking back on it that the FO didnt make more of a push this off season to bring some of these guys back or replace them with quality replacements.

You are seeing the results from this off season. Poor offensive line, not as effective defensive line, poor secondary play, and a step back in the coaching and coordinating of this team.

I don't see how everyone keeps saying we have poor secomdary play. We have been against a lot of the best receivers in the league and we are still 10th in the league in passing yards allowed. We have limited Marshall and Decker to a combined 60ish yards. We made Antonio Brown have the worst game since he's been the Steelers #1. We limited the Dolphins to almost no yards after the first drive. People are seeing a problem that isn't there.

(10-04-2016, 02:21 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: After a quarter of the season, I think its fair to say. The difference in the talent and the coaching between this year and last year is very evident.

They let Reggie Nelson, Marvin Jones, Andre Smith, Sanu, Leon Hall, Emmanual Lamur, Wallace Gilberry, Vance Joseph, and Hugh Jackson walk.

I know each of those players/coaches have different circumstances around why they left, and some are justified, but how could we honestly think we were going to be better this year than last year?

Thats a CRAP TON of talent and roster depth. It kind of pisses me off looking back on it that the FO didnt make more of a push this off season to bring some of these guys back or replace them with quality replacements.

You are seeing the results from this off season. Poor offensive line, not as effective defensive line, poor secondary play, and a step back in the coaching and coordinating of this team.

The culprit......................ELMER FUDD brown!

(10-04-2016, 02:25 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I don't see how everyone keeps saying we have poor secomdary play. We have been against a lot of the best receivers in the league and we are still 10th in the league in passing yards allowed. We have limited Marshall and Decker to a combined 60ish yards. We made Antonio Brown have the worst game since he's been the Steelers #1. We limited the Dolphins to almost no yards after the first drive. People are seeing a problem that isn't there.

Bengals gave up 16 passing touchdowns last year. This year they have already given up 8 I believe. Last year I think the Bengals gave up 6 or less plays over 30 yards. This year they have already given up 3. 

There have been breakdowns in the secondary this year that never happened last year. Fine, they are 10th in the league in passing yards, but what about the breakdowns in the secondary that have happened almost every game? 

No team in the league can afford to re-sign every veteran free agent and prevent coaches from leaving.

So it is kind of silly to squeal about how the Bengals did not do something that was impossible.

(10-04-2016, 02:21 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: After a quarter of the season, I think its fair to say. The difference in the talent and the coaching between this year and last year is very evident.

They let Reggie Nelson, Marvin Jones, Andre Smith, Sanu, Leon Hall, Emmanual Lamur, Wallace Gilberry, Vance Joseph, and Hugh Jackson walk.

I know each of those players/coaches have different circumstances around why they left, and some are justified, but how could we honestly think we were going to be better this year than last year?

Thats a CRAP TON of talent and roster depth. It kind of pisses me off looking back on it that the FO didnt make more of a push this off season to bring some of these guys back or replace them with quality replacements.

You are seeing the results from this off season. Poor offensive line, not as effective defensive line, poor secondary play, and a step back in the coaching and coordinating of this team.

I don't know Weezy.  I think they did a pretty good job actually.  The only one on that list I would really liked to have re-signed was Marvin Jones.  If we didn't match (I heard we did - and I heard we didn't) we came darn close.   He wanted to be the man so he left.  He knew he would never be the man opposite AJ.

The only other person I would like to have maybe kept was Gilberry.  But honestly he did not play well the last half of last season and both Clark and Hunt have upgraded their play significantly.   Clark is playing good ball right now and sets the edge better than Gilberry did.  Plus he has 5 sacks.

All the other players are not playing well right now from what I hear.   Other than that wonderful signature play against the Ravens Sunday I hear that Nelson has been dogmeat so far.   I wasn't sure how well Williams would pan out but I surely did not expect Iloka to play as bad as he has this year.

I think we more than replaced Sanu with LaFelle.  You could argue that (touchdowns aside) he has pretty well replaced Jones, though I'd take Jones over Lafelle at this point.

Our biggest problems have been people that are still here not playing up to their 2015 level.

(10-04-2016, 02:28 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Bengals gave up 16 passing touchdowns last year. This year they have already given up 8 I believe. Last year I think the Bengals gave up 6 or less plays over 30 yards. This year they have already given up 3. 

There have been breakdowns in the secondary this year that never happened last year. Fine, they are 10th in the league in passing yards, but what about the breakdowns in the secondary that have happened almost every game? 

We have gave up 0 rushing TDs so far this year. Last year we gave up a ton of them. Did our run defense improve that much? The Bengals secondary is doing fine. 

Marvin Jones is the one that really hurts, and by all accounts our offer was nearly identical to the one he accepted from Detroit. He just wanted to be a #1 WR and we already have a pretty good one of those. Can't really blame the FO for that. Nelson and Hall are aging, and our secondary has been good this season. I'll admit there is currently a drop off at safety from Nelson to Williams but at some point you have to move on from the older guys and let the young guys have a shot. I don't think Ced has been the real issue with the o line although he's not perfect yet, seems that the real issue is at center. Maybe having a young tackle and a poor center next to Zietler is hurting his ability more than just the center was last year, but give ced time to develop. Also many people wanted to bench Andre or let him walk anyway saying his play was declining and he had injury issues.

The rest of the guys you mentioned were overrated role players who got overpaid. I was glad Sanu walked for the price tag. My biggest gripe with the FO was that they panicked and tried to match the crazy contract Atlanta gave him.

Hue and Vance both left for promotions they weren't going to get here, not at all the FO's fault. In reality it just shows how good our FO has been that teams are constantly stealing our assistants.

In summary, I wish we still had Jones and Reggie, but I certainly don't blame the FO for the decisions they made. Give this group time, like you said there has been a lot of change and it's only natural that there be an adjustment period

I think the biggest mistake the FO/Owner has made is Mike Zimmer. That may well go down right behind Bill Walsh on the giant snafu list.

If you could go back in time maybe you sweeten the deal for Reggie by a couple of million if you can find the money. You'd have to let go of another player to do that though. That said, given our injuries at DB, you could do worse things than carry an extra safety. Maybe Flowers would go back to PS or even someone on offense (James Wright?).

(10-04-2016, 03:00 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I think the biggest mistake the FO/Owner has made is Mike Zimmer. That may well go down right behind Bill Walsh on the giant snafu list.

Agree with this. Letting some of our coaches go is evident right now. 

(10-04-2016, 02:32 PM)3wt Wrote: I don't know Weezy.  I think they did a pretty good job actually.  The only one on that list I would really liked to have re-signed was Marvin Jones.  If we didn't match (I heard we did - and I heard we didn't) we came darn close.   He wanted to be the man so he left.  He knew he would never be the man opposite AJ.

The only other person I would like to have maybe kept was Gilberry.  But honestly he did not play well the last half of last season and both Clark and Hunt have upgraded their play significantly.   Clark is playing good ball right now and sets the edge better than Gilberry did.  Plus he has 5 sacks.

All the other players are not playing well right now from what I hear.   Other than that wonderful signature play against the Ravens Sunday I hear that Nelson has been dogmeat so far.   I wasn't sure how well Williams would pan out but I surely did not expect Iloka to play as bad as he has this year.

I think we more than replaced Sanu with LaFelle.  You could argue that (touchdowns aside) he has pretty well replaced Jones, though I'd take Jones over Lafelle at this point.

Our biggest problems have been people that are still here not playing up to their 2015 level.

I'm not sure where you have heard that from.  He has 31 tackles through 4 games, with 25 of those being solo.  I doubt many FS in the league are on pace for a 124 tackle season.  And if they are, I think it says more about the DL and LB's playing in front of them.  He also has an INT, a fumble recovery, and 4 passes defended.  His best year for passes defended was 2014 with 14.  He's on pace to eclipse that this year and also have a career year for tackles.  

I think the defense as a whole suffered his absence, especially early on.  Not only is Reggie a baller, but he also is a coach on the field with his experience.  He played a much overlooked "Chris Crocker" type role in making sure everyone was set correctly before the snap, and could better recognize offensive adjustments than the younger guys.  

I think having Burfict on the field will help negate this issue, as his football IQ is also extremely high.

(10-04-2016, 03:00 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I think the biggest mistake the FO/Owner has made is Mike Zimmer. That may well go down right behind Bill Walsh on the giant snafu list.

This.

Its a damn shame they let the man walk.  It was a perfect fit considering they're afraid to hire ANYONE from outside of the organization for fear that the new person will hurt their delicate feelings.  Thats why Marv is their darling, he's not going to speak up to miky or katy.  

(10-04-2016, 03:40 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote:  It was a perfect fit considering they're afraid to hire ANYONE from outside of the organization for fear that the new person will hurt their delicate feelings. 

Zimmer

Gruden.

(10-04-2016, 03:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Zimmer

Gruden.

Allow me to restate. 

It was a perfect fit considering they're afraid to hire ANYONE from outside of the organization as a HC for fear that the new person will hurt their delicate feelings.


But please, continue with your baseless homerism geoff.

(10-04-2016, 02:21 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: After a quarter of the season, I think its fair to say. The difference in the talent and the coaching between this year and last year is very evident.

They let Reggie Nelson, Marvin Jones, Andre Smith, Sanu, Leon Hall, Emmanual Lamur, Wallace Gilberry, Vance Joseph, and Hugh Jackson walk.

I know each of those players/coaches have different circumstances around why they left, and some are justified, but how could we honestly think we were going to be better this year than last year?

Thats a CRAP TON of talent and roster depth. It kind of pisses me off looking back on it that the FO didnt make more of a push this off season to bring some of these guys back or replace them with quality replacements.

You are seeing the results from this off season. Poor offensive line, not as effective defensive line, poor secondary play, and a step back in the coaching and coordinating of this team.

I agree that letting Reggie walk probably wasn't the best move. I also think it was a mistake to give Williams the new deal so quickly. He may turn out to be a very good safety, but everything about it seemed very rushed, and very premature, IMO.

With Gilberry leaving, it's allowed Clarke to see more playing time, and he's responded well.

Marvin Jones wanted to be a #1 and that couldn't happen here, so you can't blame that on the FO. Sanu was vastly overpaid IMO, so I'm glad they let him walk.

I liked Joseph, but he had an opportunity to become a DC and the FO had already blocked him the previous season.

As far as Hue is concerned...I honestly wanted him nowhere near the HCing position. I've always thought that Hue was all about Hue. As much as I've talked about moving on from Marvin, Hue wasn't one of the names I would want replacing him.

Outside of the Nelson/Williams decisions, I thought they had a fairly decent offseason.  As for what effect the different moves/decisions will have on this season, I think it's still far too early to know.

(10-04-2016, 03:00 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I think the biggest mistake the FO/Owner has made is Mike Zimmer. That may well go down right behind Bill Walsh on the giant snafu list.

Zimmer was the perfect in-house candidate to replace Marvin with. Unfortunately, the FO (or at least Mike Brown) didn't see it that way. 

Obviously agree on the Zimmer bit, but as for this particular offseason... couldn't be helped with Marvin Jones. Sanu was fairly easily replaced and not for a bajillion dollars. Gilberry isn't as good anymore as Clarke has been this year. Hall not making it allowed Shaw to make it most likely. Andre Smith and Lamur were bad.

Couldn't do anything about Hue and Joseph short of getting rid of Marvin and Guenther, which we know they wouldn't do.

They really messed up on not keeping Nelson, though. The safety play for the Bengals has been real weak this year.
They also really messed up by not getting more WR help in FA. Preferably someone with better hands.


Not sure you can use the term hindsight, though. Seeing as how many people had already seen/known this before the season started. Even if all of them weren't good, you can't lose that many people and still be the same/better team. Can't be hindsight if people already knew it/said it.

(10-04-2016, 04:27 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Not sure you can use the term hindsight, though. Seeing as how many people had already seen/known this before the season started. Even if all of them weren't good, you can't lose that many people and still be the same/better team. Can't be hindsight if people already knew it/said it.

If you complain about every single move the Bengals make then you are bound to be right about somethings.

If we listened to "many people" around here then we would also have cut Kirkpatrick, Nugent, Hunt, Clarke, Peko, LaFell and a few others.

I think the biggest snafu this offseason was our lack of urgency with the WR spot. While LaFell is an okay player, he doesn't strike fear into a defense, but we couldn't sacrifice any potential 2017 comp picks. I like Boyd, but he was basically our last chance at getting a WR in the draft. I don't know where they ranked Treadwell, but we had Thomas and Shepherd above Boyd in the pre-draft rankings.

I have nothing against Boyd, but I see him more as a Sanu replacement and we'll continue to look for a Marvin Jones replacement next season. (Although I look forward to some people screaming how Core is our answer there)