(10-04-2016, 02:42 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Marvin Jones is the one that really hurts, and by all accounts our offer was nearly identical to the one he accepted from Detroit. He just wanted to be a #1 WR and we already have a pretty good one of those. Can't really blame the FO for that. Nelson and Hall are aging, and our secondary has been good this season. I'll admit there is currently a drop off at safety from Nelson to Williams but at some point you have to move on from the older guys and let the young guys have a shot. I don't think Ced has been the real issue with the o line although he's not perfect yet, seems that the real issue is at center. Maybe having a young tackle and a poor center next to Zietler is hurting his ability more than just the center was last year, but give ced time to develop. Also many people wanted to bench Andre or let him walk anyway saying his play was declining and he had injury issues.

The rest of the guys you mentioned were overrated role players who got overpaid. I was glad Sanu walked for the price tag. My biggest gripe with the FO was that they panicked and tried to match the crazy contract Atlanta gave him.

Hue and Vance both left for promotions they weren't going to get here, not at all the FO's fault. In reality it just shows how good our FO has been that teams are constantly stealing our assistants.

In summary, I wish we still had Jones and Reggie, but I certainly don't blame the FO for the decisions they made. Give this group time, like you said there has been a lot of change and it's only natural that there be an adjustment period

I pretty much agree with every word. Note: Really good teams reload, not rebuild. Let's hope the B,s are in reload mode.

It really wasn't the FO's fault that the coaches were sniped.  There really isn't an awful lot that they could have done to keep those guys other than to promote them, in which case you would have to fire a senior ranked coach and you're still replacing somebody. The Jones and Sanu ordeals were detrimental, but I really don't blame anybody in those situations either.  The players were offered really good deals and the FO decided not to tie all of their money into receivers.   The moves that do stick out as being kind of iffy to me are:  

1. Paying Shawn Williams instead of Reggie Nelson.  There really was no need to pay Shawn Williams before he started other than to cover for if he really broke out and was offered big bucks for one season of production, with or without Nelson coming back. RFN and Shawn Williams both wound up with the exact same guaranteed money.  Why not bring back your interception leader from the last season for at least one year?  Would anyone have offered Williams outrageous money after this year if he was just a rotational safety?  This one looks even sketchier in hindsight with the emergence of Shaw and Smith, one of whom may wind up being better in the long run. 

2. Letting Andre Smith go.  The guy plays like an above average starting RT in contract years. Why not keep offering one year deals until one of the young tackles are actually ready?  3.5 million on a one year deal seems fair for a guy who has turned in some good seasons but has struggled with injuries.  They could've given Williams's guaranteed money to Smith and waited one more year before paying him like a starter.

LOL for those few that want Sanu back have you looked at his numbers as the number 2 next to Julio?

In four games he has 13 catches for 152 yards and 1 touchdown. Keep in mind one of those catches was 59 yards. I'll keep Boyd.

Like others have said, Nelson and Jones are the only two legit gripes and even then the front office can't force players to stay. It's a two way street.

It did give me a chuckle reading that we miss Andre Smith, Wallace Gilberry and Emmanuel Lamur.
Clarke > Gilberry - Clarke leads the team in sacks.
Dansby > Lamur - I don't really need to explain why.
Ced < Smith - I dont think Ced is doing as bad as someone people say but he is first round pick and it was time to move on from Smith. Smith may be better now but I believe Ced will have the better career. People need to remember there will be some growing pains.

Keeping Erickson over Tate looks to be a mistake.

(10-04-2016, 04:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: LaFell is on pace to catch 52 passes for 832 yards (16.0 avg).
Last year Jones caught 65 passes for 816 yards (12.6 avg)

Sorry but stats only tell part of the story in football.

 There is a reason Jones was one of the top Free Agents last season and is making 8mil. Brandon Lafell is a still a good receiver but he is not Marvin Jones.

Edit just look at what he's doing in Detriot...
http://www.espn.com/blog/detroit-lions/post/_/id/25654/chasing-calvin-johnson-a-j-green-julio-jones-marvin-jones-can-make-run-at-mark

(10-04-2016, 10:04 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Keeping Erickson over Tate looks to be a mistake.

Nah, no matter who's back there, they wouldn't be doing much. The Bengals lost a lot of depth, and depth is your special teams. So a big decrease in depth quality is basically the same as a big decrease in special teams quality. The blocking on ST just isn't there. Even Adam Jones hasn't done anything in the return game.

(10-04-2016, 02:21 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: After a quarter of the season, I think its fair to say. The difference in the talent and the coaching between this year and last year is very evident.

They let Reggie Nelson, Marvin Jones, Andre Smith, Sanu, Leon Hall, Emmanual Lamur, Wallace Gilberry, Vance Joseph, and Hugh Jackson walk.

I know each of those players/coaches have different circumstances around why they left, and some are justified, but how could we honestly think we were going to be better this year than last year?

Thats a CRAP TON of talent and roster depth. It kind of pisses me off looking back on it that the FO didnt make more of a push this off season to bring some of these guys back or replace them with quality replacements.

You are seeing the results from this off season. Poor offensive line, not as effective defensive line, poor secondary play, and a step back in the coaching and coordinating of this team.

I understand completely what you are saying here, but let me offer some perspective:

The money that was paid to guys like Marvin, Sanu, and Nelson was ridiculous and not worth the investment here. Why?  Because Eifert, as we are witnessing, is much more important to this offense (rushing and red zone) than the WRs Jones and Sanu.  The others simply aren't as good as the options the Bengals had to replace them with so it was a good decision.  All these FA defections will yield significant compensatory picks in next year's draft....and they just became trade-able (the picks).  With no FA acquisitions, the calculation is a bit of a mystery, but the max I believe a team could acquire is three third rounders.  That would be borderline incredible.  And Jones, Sanu, Hall, Nelson, and Smith are all starting and a number of them are highly compensated.  Somehow, that all figures in to the equation.  

The coaches?  You don't own the rights to them, but I agree it is very disappointing the way they stuck with Marvin yet again.  I would have much rather had Hue running the team with Marvin as some personnel manager (and I would pay him well to do that....dude knows talent).  You can say they didn't learn from their first loss with Zimmer, but Mike Brown clearly would rather have the conservative coach that is not at all outspoken to run his team.  

The offensive line still has a chance to gel and end the season as a solid unit.  I believe in Fisher and Ced O.  The defensive line is at least holding up against some of the better teams in the NFL, and they should start to look much better with Tez back out there.  I also am very encouraged that Hunt and Clarke seem to be solid contributors.  I really thought keeping them and not signing Freeney was a big mistake.  

The big whiff was at Center.  It appears Bodine might actually be worse than feared.  He is on roller skates.  Not pushing him with a FA or a decent draft selection was a big mistake.  Look at what Alex Mack has done for Altanta.  That could have been Cincy.  You can bet next year, an early pick will be used at Center.  

Right now, Altanta looks pretty good with their FA acquisitions, but it also forces them to have a paper-thin roster.  They don't have talent in the wings like the Bengals to back up numerous positions.  If/when they suffer a few key injuries...well, they started last year 5-0 as well....and finished 8-8

(10-05-2016, 08:18 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I understand completely what you are saying here, but let me offer some perspective:

The money that was paid to guys like Marvin, Sanu, and 1. Nelson was ridiculous and not worth the investment here. Why?  Because Eifert, as we are witnessing, is much more important to this offense (rushing and red zone) than the WRs Jones and Sanu.  The others simply aren't as good as the options the Bengals had to replace them with so it was a good decision.  2. All these FA defections will yield significant compensatory picks in next year's draft....and they just became trade-able (the picks).  With no FA acquisitions, the calculation is a bit of a mystery, but the max I believe a team could acquire is three third rounders.  That would be borderline incredible.  And Jones, Sanu, Hall, Nelson, and Smith are all starting and a number of them are highly compensated.  Somehow, that all figures in to the equation.  

The coaches?  You don't own the rights to them, but I agree it is very disappointing the way they stuck with Marvin yet again.  I would have much rather had Hue running the team with Marvin as some personnel manager (and I would pay him well to do that....dude knows talent).  You can say they didn't learn from their first loss with Zimmer, but Mike Brown clearly would rather have the conservative coach that is not at all outspoken to run his team.  

The offensive line still has a chance to gel and end the season as a solid unit.  I believe in Fisher and Ced O.  The defensive line is at least holding up against some of the better teams in the NFL, and they should start to look much better with Tez back out there.  I also am very encouraged that Hunt and Clarke seem to be solid contributors.  I really thought keeping them and not signing Freeney was a big mistake.  

The big whiff was at Center.  It appears Bodine might actually be worse than feared.  He is on roller skates.  Not pushing him with a FA or a decent draft selection was a big mistake.  Look at what Alex Mack has done for Altanta.  That could have been Cincy.  You can bet next year, an early pick will be used at Center.  

Right now, Altanta looks pretty good with their FA acquisitions, but it also forces them to have a 3. paper-thin roster.  They don't have talent in the wings like the Bengals to back up numerous positions.  If/when they suffer a few key injuries...well, they started last year 5-0 as well....and finished 8-8

1. 2yr/$8.5m? They instead gave Shawn Williams 5yr/$20m to not be able to cover people or tackle. You can't spin that as a positive move.

- - - - -

2. There's a limit on compensatory picks, there can only be 32 total picks given out in a year. There were a LOT of big contracts given out this offseason. The Bengals probably aren't getting a 3rd round comp pick in 2017. They're based largely on contracts given, and Jones got the biggest of the Bengals FAs, but is only 10th on that list in $/yr avg. They're not going to give 10 3rd round picks.

http://www.milehighreport.com/2016/5/5/11595824/denver-broncos-should-get-four-compensatory-picks-in-2017
This projects the Bengals getting a 4th for Jones and Sanu, a 5th for Nelson, and a 6th for Andre.

Nothing they could do about Marvin Jones, but I would have gladly given away the 5th round pick to have kept Nelson. Or given it away to sign someone like Travis Benjamin at WR. Or given up Andre's 6th rounder to sign Anquan Boldin so the Bengals would have some surer hands to throw to on third down.

Refusing to improve your team in FA for possible compensation picks two years later is an awful move. All the latest SB winners were players in FA. Going for it all is better than muddling around with one foot in, one foot out. That's how you turn into the Reds.

- - - - -

3. I really don't think the Bengals depth is as good as you think it is anymore. Boling went down and Fisher came in as the backup and was awful. There's no meaningful WRs after Green. Without Eifert there's no redzone threat from the TE spot. If Atkins or Dunlap go down, the DL is in trouble. The Bengals are one Adam Jones injury away from Chris Lewis-Harris being a starter.

The depth just isn't there anymore.

Since when do you base an entire season off of 4 games?

(10-04-2016, 02:21 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: After a quarter of the season, I think its fair to say. The difference in the talent and the coaching between this year and last year is very evident.

They let Reggie Nelson, Marvin Jones, Andre Smith, Sanu, Leon Hall, Emmanual Lamur, Wallace Gilberry, Vance Joseph, and Hugh Jackson walk.

I know each of those players/coaches have different circumstances around why they left, and some are justified, but how could we honestly think we were going to be better this year than last year?

Thats a CRAP TON of talent and roster depth. It kind of pisses me off looking back on it that the FO didnt make more of a push this off season to bring some of these guys back or replace them with quality replacements.

You are seeing the results from this off season. Poor offensive line, not as effective defensive line, poor secondary play, and a step back in the coaching and coordinating of this team.

You're right, I don't know why we didn't keep them all.....oh wait, the salary cap....nevermind. As for coaches, we should have just made them all head coach here so they wouldn't leave...... LaFell is doing better than Sanu and Jones, Andre Smith is stinking it up in Minnesota, I haven't been keeping up with Gilberry, but Jackson just had a fire sale in Cleveland and has yet to win a game. Yeah, our front office is stinking it up alright.....

(10-04-2016, 06:48 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: No kidding.  If any man was ever ready to take over, it was Mike Zimmer.  Is it any wonder that I have adopted the Vikings as my second team?

Agree 100%, unfortunately for us MB is like 80% of the other owners who want to hire offensive guys as HC. Losing Zim was hearbreaking, and I hope he makes it to the Super Bowl this year.

(10-04-2016, 04:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay then.

In the first four games last year Jones had 10 catches for 165 yards.

Through his first four games this year Lafell has 13 catches for 208 yards.

LaFell has more than replaced Jones's production.

Why dont you compare Jone's stats from this year to Lafells from this year? 

That tells a different story. 

(10-04-2016, 02:21 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: After a quarter of the season, I think its fair to say. The difference in the talent and the coaching between this year and last year is very evident.

They let Reggie Nelson, Marvin Jones, Andre Smith, Sanu, Leon Hall, Emmanual Lamur, Wallace Gilberry, Vance Joseph, and Hugh Jackson walk.

I know each of those players/coaches have different circumstances around why they left, and some are justified, but how could we honestly think we were going to be better this year than last year?

Thats a CRAP TON of talent and roster depth. It kind of pisses me off looking back on it that the FO didnt make more of a push this off season to bring some of these guys back or replace them with quality replacements.

You are seeing the results from this off season. Poor offensive line, not as effective defensive line, poor secondary play, and a step back in the coaching and coordinating of this team.

Last time I looked the NFL had free agency and guys like Marvin Jones, Vance Joseph and Hugh Jackson wanted more than the money, they wanted a higher up job.

I'm surprised we are missing Andre Smith as much as we are.

(10-05-2016, 10:47 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Last time I looked the NFL had free agency and guys like Marvin Jones, Vance Joseph and Hugh Jackson wanted more than the money, they wanted a higher up job.

I'm surprised we are missing Andre Smith as much as we are.

Andre Smith was really good for us for a really long time. People took him for granted. 

(10-05-2016, 10:41 AM)Sled21 Wrote: You're right, I don't know why we didn't keep them all.....oh wait, the salary cap....nevermind. As for coaches, we should have just made them all head coach here so they wouldn't leave...... LaFell is doing better than Sanu and Jones, Andre Smith is stinking it up in Minnesota, I haven't been keeping up with Gilberry, but Jackson just had a fire sale in Cleveland and has yet to win a game. Yeah, our front office is stinking it up alright.....

In fairness, I think Cleveland clearly had no intentions of trying to actually win something this year. They cut a ton of the players who had been around for a bit, got rid of some other players, saved up their FA $, and stocked up a mountain of draft picks (I think they have two full drafts worth in 2017).

They drafted 14 people in the 2016 draft.

It's pretty clear Cleveland just burnt everything to the ground and are rebuilding from scratch. They'll suck this year, get a QB with the 1st or 2nd pick overall, and then use the rest of their bajillion picks on other folk and augment their roster with all that cap space $ they'll roll over.

Understand what they're doing, and it's actually not a half bad plan for the Browns.

(10-05-2016, 10:46 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Why dont you compare Jone's stats from this year to Lafells from this year? 

That tells a different story. 

Because that is not the point. The point is did we adaquetly replace MLJ.

Do you think MLJ whould have those numbers here?

What do you guys expect? Great coordinators will get head coaching jobs. Should we be paying Mike Zimmer and Hue Jackson the same contracts they are getting as head coaches to be our OC and DC? News flash...no other NFL team does this.

Unfortunately, Marvin has had some great coaches who are older and wanted shots to be head coaches. A place like New England, McDaniels has already failed as a HC and Patricia is still very young, and very possibly the next coach after BB. They have stability at the coordinator position, not because of lack of talent, but situation. Dick LeBeau failed as a HC badly, but settled in as a fine DC and was comfortable with that for the rest of his career.

As for the players, it's simple.

Marvin Jones was offered what he got in Detroit, he wanted to be "the man" and didn't want to return if he wasn't. He's showing why.
Reggie Nelson has not been all than impressive in Oakland, and suffice to say Williams/Shaw are just as good and cheaper (until Williams got extended).
Leon Hall...really? Might have made sense after WJIII went down, but you can't predict stuff like that.
Andre Smith...I'll just LOL at this one. He sucks and we nailed this one down when we drafted 2 tackles in 2015.
Wallace Gilberry? Well, our d-line has gotten great production from Clarke and Hunt, not sure why Gilberry is even mentioned.
Mo Sanu got an insane deal from Atlanta, one the Bengals wouldn't have come close to. To boot, Sanu stinks in Atlanta so far.

What you're basically saying is the Bengals should've kept everyone...and what I'm saying is...they did about as good as they could have. The better argument would've been them being more aggressive in bringing in pieces to replace these guys. Thus far, I haven't been impressed with Dansby or LaFell. Jackson went down, Dennard was hurt and not very good and obviously Eifert's injury has been well-documented how the team bungled that. Burfict was suspended and we're breaking in a new tackle (who is still better than Andre Smith, BTW). Our losses were to 2 of the top 3 or 4 teams in the AFC.

Color me optimistic, actually.

(10-05-2016, 10:46 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Why dont you compare Jone's stats from this year to Lafells from this year? 

That tells a different story. 

Because Jones is on a completely different team this year. It's more relevant to look at his production when he was here with Andy and gang instead of comparing his production as a #1 in Detroit....

(10-05-2016, 11:22 AM)ItsOdellThurman Wrote: What do you guys expect?  Great coordinators will get head coaching jobs.  Should we be paying Mike Zimmer and Hue Jackson the same contracts they are getting as head coaches to be our OC and DC?  News flash...no other NFL team does this.

Unfortunately, Marvin has had some great coaches who are older and wanted shots to be head coaches.  A place like New England, McDaniels has already failed as a HC and Patricia is still very young, and very possibly the next coach after BB.  They have stability at the coordinator position, not because of lack of talent, but situation.  Dick LeBeau failed as a HC badly, but settled in as a fine DC and was comfortable with that for the rest of his career.

As for the players, it's simple.

Marvin Jones was offered what he got in Detroit, he wanted to be "the man" and didn't want to return if he wasn't.  He's showing why.
Reggie Nelson has not been all than impressive in Oakland, and suffice to say Williams/Shaw are just as good and cheaper (until Williams got extended).
Leon Hall...really?  Might have made sense after WJIII went down, but you can't predict stuff like that.
Andre Smith...I'll just LOL at this one.  He sucks and we nailed this one down when we drafted 2 tackles in 2015.
Wallace Gilberry?  Well, our d-line has gotten great production from Clarke and Hunt, not sure why Gilberry is even mentioned.
Mo Sanu got an insane deal from Atlanta, one the Bengals wouldn't have come close to.  To boot, Sanu stinks in Atlanta so far.

What you're basically saying is the Bengals should've kept everyone...and what I'm saying is...they did about as good as they could have.  The better argument would've been them being more aggressive in bringing in pieces to replace these guys.  Thus far, I haven't been impressed with Dansby or LaFell.  Jackson went down, Dennard was hurt and not very good and obviously Eifert's injury has been well-documented how the team bungled that.  Burfict was suspended and we're breaking in a new tackle (who is still better than Andre Smith, BTW).  Our losses were to 2 of the top 3 or 4 teams in the AFC.

Color me optimistic, actually.

Losing the coordinators the Bengals have had is what irks me. I get that successful teams generally lose coordinators but how come the Steelers haven't lost Todd Haley? Nobody even looked at him and the Steelers offense has been great for years now. When's the last coordinator to leave New England? I fully expect Josh McDaniels to be offered a job in the offseason.

Has any other team lost the coaching talent the Bengals have lost in the past 3 years??

Todd Haley sucked as a head coach, that's why. Like McDaniels, he put his tail between his legs after failing as a HC and returned to the comfort of a very stable coaching staff under a tenured head coach.

I'm sure if Mike Zimmer, Hue Jackson or Jay Gruden are fired and Marvin Lewis is still coach, the same could happen. However, it appears all 3 of those guys will keep their jobs for a while.