(10-06-2016, 05:09 PM)kevin Wrote: Then Vince Lombardi was a lousy coach because every game of every year he told his Packers they needed to play better and they needed to give even more.  ...." Well I think I can speak for Field Marshall Montgomery--He would say you are asking the impossible of your men"....." Of course he would, because he's never realized that's what we're in business for "........What in the heck do you want Coach Lewis to say.  That 2-2 is great.  That no play-off wins since the 1990 season is great.  You know, you people can complain all you want about Coach Lewis as you have for years, but to whine because he tells the players they need to play better is just some weak chicken shot.   My God, I hear Pee Wee coaches tell kids they have to play harder.  I think these grown up men getting paid millions can take a little kick in the pants now and then......and look at my Super Bowl Trophy that all Bengals players and fans want.  That is only won by being the most motivated, the most dedicated team, the team that gives everything and then is asked to give even more and somehow they do.  A trophy won by the teams Dedicated To Always Wanting To Play Better Than Their Last Game. ...Yes, all teams lift weights.  So that must NOT be what wins the Super Bowl.  You gotta have heart.  Miles of heart. ....Woody Hayes said coaching is 90 % motivation.  Now that may not be true in the NFL, but winning coaches such as Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, John Madden, Tom Landry, Don Shula,  Chuck Noll certainly were big on MOTIVATION. ....I can't see how you can be upset with a coach that tells his team to play better.  You don't realize that is what they are in business for.

and I'll stand by my answer to how this thread started. 

I'm with people on here, his message is tired and old. How about you Marvin coach better, put some blame on yourself. Won't you try new things as a Hc and replace a bum on the o line, won't you see if Cody core is a playmaker. Stop relying on trying to be better with the same thing. Won't you make real coaching decisions. Marvin is so conceited in interviews, he thinks he's untouchable, just like he treats most of his players, unless they get injured.

I'm just waiting on fred to post what he thinks Lewis is doing wrong. Perhaps not being good looking enough will be atop his list.

(10-06-2016, 05:52 PM)kevin Wrote: Before Coach Lewis came here, No good coaches wanted to work for Mike Brown....and I doubt that has changed.  Dave Shula, Coslett and LeBeau were just God Awful.....Fans would mention Parcells as you now mention Harbaugh.  I don't see either Harbaugh leaving their jobs to come to Cincy and to work under Mike Brown, forget about it.......Coach Lewis took over THE WORST team in the NFL and had play-off seasons over 50 % of the years he has been here.   That is a HUGE turnaround considering this was THE WORST team in the NFL before he got here.......BUT THE POINT is he WANT'S MORE.  He WANT"S those play-off wins....He WANT"S that Super Bowl....and this thread starts off whining because he is telling the players to play harder to reach these goals. You have to be kidding me. ....YES, THIS TEAM NEEDS TO PLAY BETTER, A LOT BETTER. ....I hope Coach Lewis NEVER stops telling them this. 

I think that most long time Bengal fans appreciate what Marvin Lewis is, and has done for the organization over the years.  However, there comes a time when we should all recognize that Marvin has taken the team as far as he is capable of.  The qualities that he has, have been instrumental in building a well stocked, quality team.  Yet, as history shows, his teams are never quite prepared for the "big games".  I really do respect Marvin Lewis for coming to Cincinnati, when most others would not.  I can appreciate Mike Brown's loyalty to the man.

But, at the same time, we have seen really good, and at least one potentially great coach leave the building.  Coaches that were "told" that they were next up, etc.  So, while you're busy reminiscing about how far Marvin Lewis has brought the team from the "dark days" (a dark age that Mike Brown himself created, by running off Sam Wyche..)  Consider for a moment just what Mike Zimmer could have done with this talented roster the past couple seasons...

(10-06-2016, 05:52 PM)kevin Wrote: Before Coach Lewis came here, No good coaches wanted to work for Mike Brown....and I doubt that has changed.  Dave Shula, Coslett and LeBeau were just God Awful.....Fans would mention Parcells as you now mention Harbaugh.  I don't see either Harbaugh leaving their jobs to come to Cincy and to work under Mike Brown, forget about it.......Coach Lewis took over THE WORST team in the NFL and had play-off seasons over 50 % of the years he has been here.   That is a HUGE turnaround considering this was THE WORST team in the NFL before he got here.......BUT THE POINT is he WANT'S MORE.  He WANT"S those play-off wins....He WANT"S that Super Bowl....and this thread starts off whining because he is telling the players to play harder to reach these goals. You have to be kidding me. ....YES, THIS TEAM NEEDS TO PLAY BETTER, A LOT BETTER. ....I hope Coach Lewis NEVER stops telling them this. 

Kevin, I agree with a lot of what you say here. The Bengals were a disaster before Marvin showed up. He did do an unbelievable job in turning this franchise around and getting it to the point where they are now. He deserves all the credit in the world for that. As I said before, he's been great at putting together rosters and keeping the team competitive.

And of course he wants to win playoff games and lead this team to a Super Bowl. He probably wants that desperately. The problem is that the desire to win in the postseason only goes so far. At some point, you actually have to do it. After 7 opportunities, that have all ended in very disappointing fashion, the reality is that he (and his teams) hasn't gotten the job done when it matters the most.

(10-06-2016, 03:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  Marvin is one of the more successful coaches in the league.  He is not an elite coach, but he is not as bad as many of you claim.

Of the 32 HC in the NFL...

-8 haven't been a HC for even 2 full seasons yet.

Of those remaining 24...

-7 have won a Super Bowl.

Of those remaining 17...

-3 have been to a Super Bowl.




That leaves Marv in a pool of 14 HC who have coached at least 2 full seasons in their career, but haven't won a SB. Mediocre Marv will forever be Mediocre Marv.

I've been a huge Marvin Lewis supporter although I was one of the people who believed Zimmer should have taken over as HC two years ago. That said, if the Bengals don't make the playoffs this year or are one and done, IF SOMEONE SOLID IS AVAILABLE, then they should cut the cord. It's time.

Regardless, Marvin Lewis will always be the man who turned this franchise around.

(10-06-2016, 03:04 PM)PDub80 Wrote: That guy's a champion several times over and he even cheated once or twice to make some of those happen. He can say whatever the F he pleases and it's going to be 100℅ acceptable to me.

Behind closed doors Bill's a stone cold killer and probably the greatest coach of all time. In contrast, the Charlie Brown coaching my favorite team is a giggler.

Bingo

(10-06-2016, 04:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And thta is why threads likie this are so stupid.

People criticize Lewis for doing the exact same thing that the best coach in the league does.  It proves how little some fans know.  They just automatically criticize everything Marvin does just because they don't like Marvin.

I know you are Marvin.

(10-06-2016, 12:24 PM)jason Wrote: This board has done some good things. It has to keep grinding, do its job, and clean some things up on third down...
Also... It has to limit turnovers.

...and so forth.

(10-06-2016, 05:52 PM)kevin Wrote: Before Coach Lewis came here, No good coaches wanted to work for Mike Brown....and I doubt that has changed.  Dave Shula, Coslett and LeBeau were just God Awful.....Fans would mention Parcells as you now mention Harbaugh.  I don't see either Harbaugh leaving their jobs to come to Cincy and to work under Mike Brown, forget about it.......Coach Lewis took over THE WORST team in the NFL and had play-off seasons over 50 % of the years he has been here.   That is a HUGE turnaround considering this was THE WORST team in the NFL before he got here.......BUT THE POINT is he WANT'S MORE.  He WANT"S those play-off wins....He WANT"S that Super Bowl....and this thread starts off whining because he is telling the players to play harder to reach these goals. You have to be kidding me. ....YES, THIS TEAM NEEDS TO PLAY BETTER, A LOT BETTER. ....I hope Coach Lewis NEVER stops telling them this. 

Let's not forget the coaches need to coach better...A LOT BETTER!!!

(10-06-2016, 03:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Which coach is worse, one that goes 0-1 in postseason or one that goes 0-7?

 
He was talking about the postseason.

Which regular season coach is better? One that goes 1-0 or the one that's 7-0?

(10-06-2016, 07:52 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Of the 32 HC in the NFL...

-8 haven't been a HC for even 2 full seasons yet.

Of those remaining 24...

-7 have won a Super Bowl.

Of those remaining 17...

-3 have been to a Super Bowl.



That leaves Marv in a pool of 14 HC who have coached at least 2 full seasons in their career, but haven't won a SB. Mediocre Marv will forever be Mediocre Marv.

A few years ago - in response to a similar claim by Fred - I made up a grading system for season success and compared Marvin's Bengals tenure to the rest of the NFL from 2003 to 2013 (?). The grading system went like this:

+8 for 12+ wins 
+5 for 10-11 wins
+3 for 9 wins
0 for 8-8
-3 for 7 wins
-5 for 5-6 wins
-8 for 4 wins or less

+10 pts for division title
+10 for each playoff win
+50 for a Super Bowl title

Marvin's "success" ranked 20th compared to the rest of the league during that time frame. I still plan on updating that list at some point. It was a crap ton of work though, and all Marv apologists did was criticize the grading system anyway.

(10-06-2016, 06:25 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I think that most long time Bengal fans appreciate what Marvin Lewis is, and has done for the organization over the years.  However, there comes a time when we should all recognize that Marvin has taken the team as far as he is capable of.  The qualities that he has, have been instrumental in building a well stocked, quality team.  Yet, as history shows, his teams are never quite prepared for the "big games".  I really do respect Marvin Lewis for coming to Cincinnati, when most others would not.  I can appreciate Mike Brown's loyalty to the man.

But, at the same time, we have seen really good, and at least one potentially great coach leave the building.  Coaches that were "told" that they were next up, etc.  So, while you're busy reminiscing about how far Marvin Lewis has brought the team from the "dark days" (a dark age that Mike Brown himself created, by running off Sam Wyche..)  Consider for a moment just what Mike Zimmer could have done with this talented roster the past couple seasons...

Wow, what a great post with praise and fair criticism of Marvin Lewis..

Wish Fredtoast knew how to do such a thing. I am still wondering what he thinks Marvin Lewis has done wrong.

Eh...

(10-06-2016, 06:58 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Kevin, I agree with a lot of what you say here. The Bengals were a disaster before Marvin showed up. He did do an unbelievable job in turning this franchise around and getting it to the point where they are now. He deserves all the credit in the world for that. As I said before, he's been great at putting together rosters and keeping the team competitive.

And of course he wants to win playoff games and lead this team to a Super Bowl. He probably wants that desperately. The problem is that the desire to win in the postseason only goes so far. At some point, you actually have to do it. After 7 opportunities, that have all ended in very disappointing fashion, the reality is that he (and his teams) hasn't gotten the job done when it matters the most.

Another great post of praise and fair criticism speaking of what Marv has done well and what he has yet to do..

(10-06-2016, 05:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lewis is just as animated as Belechick on the sidelines.  Fact.  Case closed.

I am not saying that Marvin is above criticism.  But it is silly to just criticize everything he does just because you don't like him.

Just like it is silly to defend everything he does because you like him, personally.

(10-06-2016, 10:02 PM)tlotharw Wrote: Just like it is silly to defend everything he does because you like him, personally.

Very true.

(10-06-2016, 05:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lewis is just as animated as Belechick on the sidelines.  Fact.  Case closed.

I am not saying that Marvin is above criticism.  But it is silly to just criticize everything he does just because you don't like him.

Mediocre Marv = Jim Mora 2.1. Fact. Case closed.

(10-06-2016, 05:41 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Simple question, what is Marvin Lewis doing wrong Fredtoast?

From what I can see it is not just one single thing.  Personally I don't think that coaching in the postseason is that much different than coaching in the regular season.  Pretty much the best regular season coaches are also the best post season coaches.  Marvin is an anomaly.  If there really was some super secret to being a better post season coach than regular season coach then I think we would see a lot more examples of coaches like Marvin who have strikingly different records in the post season than in the regular season.  

Most of his career Marvin has not had the talent to win championships.  His '05 team had an elite offense but did not have the defense to win a championship.  

'05 team was destroyed by injury and suspension in just two seasons.  By '08 ..... Braham-gone, Pollack-gone, Thurman-gone, Henry-gone, Deltha Oneal-gone, Rudi-gone, Levi Jones-never returned to pre-injury level,  Willie Anderson-never returned to pre-injury form.  Plus they lost Justin Smith and Eric Steinbach to free-agency.

'09 team was smoke an mirrors.  Marvin did a great job getting 10 wins out of a team with so little talent, but when Chris Henry was lost to injury our entire passing game collapsed and the offense crashed.  But Marvin brought back the unbalanced line (mainly because 3 of his starters were undrafted free agents with just 6 total NFL starts), and got some decent production form cheap cast offs (Benson, Dhani Jones, Tank Johnson).  Plus Mike Zimmer arrived and fixed our defense.  Marvin was hired as a defensive guru, but he never had a good defense until Zimmer arrived.  However by the end of the year that team was running on fumes.  Over their last 5 games they were 1-4 and outscored 65-118.  They were 2.5 point favorites in the playoff game, but that team really didn't have the talent to win a playoff game against a team that both the #1 defense in the league and the #1 rushing game.

'10 was a dumpster fire.  Because of all the drama and magic surrounding the '09 team (multiple come-from-behind last minute wins, the Vicki Zimmer game, the Chris Henry game) many people did not realize how deeply flawed they were.  TO was seen as the missing piece for a Super Bowl contender.  Then the wheels fell off.  I really can not argue with anyone who called for Marvin to be fired after the '10 season.  At that point he had had 8 years and he did not look close to winning a championship.

However, even though many experts claimed we wopuld be the worst team in the league in '11 Marvin made the playoffs with a rookie starting QB.  But the Bengals were 4 point underdogs on the road in both the '11 and '12 playoffs.

'13 was the first time that the Bengals were favored to win a playoff game and they laid a big egg at home.  I was there and as disgusted as everyone else, but at that point the Bengals were winning against good teams during the regular season.  I really felt that we had what it took to beat good teams in the playoffs.  

'14 team was destroyed by injury.

'15 team was missing starting QB but lost in a melt down.

Marvin is obviously not an elite NFL, coach but he does not deserve much of the criticism he gets around here for certain issues.  He struggles a bit with clock management, but that has never cost us a game.  He is criticized for not "making adjustments", but the numbers show that his teams do well in the third quarter and come form behind to win more than most other teams.  He gets criticized for being too conservative with a lead, but again the numbers show that he is about league average when it comes to running the ball with a lead int he second half.  In fact one loss I blame on coaching was against Tampa Bay in '10 when the Bengals threw the ball when they should not have.  He gets criticized for using time out  early but I see other teams do that all the time.  

But the criticism for his sideline demeanor and press conferences is just ridiculous.  In fact it proves my point that many people here have a personal hatred for Marvin more because of his personality than how he coaches.  Personally I don't care about a coaches demeanor as long as he is not embarrassing the team.  Screaming and yelling is not as effective as many people here think.  It might work with high school kids, but you don't win at the NFL based on your ability to scream.

So I think Marvin does not have one big weakness.  Instead it is a lot of little things.  

Finally I think too many people around here give coaching all the blame and credit for everything, but in fact, except for a couple of rare exceptions pretty much every coach has an up and down career that include winning seasons and losing seasons.  Marvin has not had "the most talented roster in the league" like some people claim.  The players who vote for the top 100 players do not agree.  the fans who vote for the pro Bowl do not agree.  The media members who pick the All-pro teams do not agree.  In fact the only people making that claim are usually trying to make up a reason to blame Marvin.

(10-06-2016, 10:53 PM)Wyche Wrote: Mediocre Marv = Jim Mora 2.1. Fact. Case closed.

Many Bronco fans said the same thing about Elway winning a Super Bowl.

You simply can not say "case closed".  

(10-07-2016, 12:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: From what I can see it is not just one single thing.  Personally I don't think that coaching in the postseason is that much different than coaching in the regular season.  Pretty much the best regular season coaches are also the best post season coaches.  Marvin is an anomaly.  If there really was some super secret to being a better post season coach than regular season coach then I think we would see a lot more examples of coaches like Marvin who have strikingly different records in the post season than in the regular season.  

Most of his career Marvin has not had the talent to win championships.  His '05 team had an elite offense but did not have the defense to win a championship.  

'05 team was destroyed by injury and suspension in just two seasons.  By '08 ..... Braham-gone, Pollack-gone, Thurman-gone, Henry-gone, Deltha Oneal-gone, Rudi-gone, Levi Jones-never returned to pre-injury level,  Willie Anderson-never returned to pre-injury form.  Plus they lost Justin Smith and Eric Steinbach to free-agency.

'09 team was smoke an mirrors.  Marvin did a great job getting 10 wins out of a team with so little talent, but when Chris Henry was lost to injury our entire passing game collapsed and the offense crashed.  But Marvin brought back the unbalanced line (mainly because 3 of his starters were undrafted free agents with just 6 total NFL starts), and got some decent production form cheap cast offs (Benson, Dhani Jones, Tank Johnson).  Plus Mike Zimmer arrived and fixed our defense.  Marvin was hired as a defensive guru, but he never had a good defense until Zimmer arrived.  However by the end of the year that team was running on fumes.  Over their last 5 games they were 1-4 and outscored 65-118.  They were 2.5 point favorites in the playoff game, but that team really didn't have the talent to win a playoff game against a team that both the #1 defense in the league and the #1 rushing game.

'10 was a dumpster fire.  Because of all the drama and magic surrounding the '09 team (multiple come-from-behind last minute wins, the Vicki Zimmer game, the Chris Henry game) many people did not realize how deeply flawed they were.  TO was seen as the missing piece for a Super Bowl contender.  Then the wheels fell off.  I really can not argue with anyone who called for Marvin to be fired after the '10 season.  At that point he had had 8 years and he did not look close to winning a championship.

However, even though many experts claimed we wopuld be the worst team in the league in '11 Marvin made the playoffs with a rookie starting QB.  But the Bengals were 4 point underdogs on the road in both the '11 and '12 playoffs.

'13 was the first time that the Bengals were favored to win a playoff game and they laid a big egg at home.  I was there and as disgusted as everyone else, but at that point the Bengals were winning against good teams during the regular season.  I really felt that we had what it took to beat good teams in the playoffs.  

'14 team was destroyed by injury.

'15 team was missing starting QB but lost in a melt down.

Marvin is obviously not an elite NFL, coach but he does not deserve much of the criticism he gets around here for certain issues.  He struggles a bit with clock management, but that has never cost us a game.  He is criticized for not "making adjustments", but the numbers show that his teams do well in the third quarter and come form behind to win more than most other teams.  He gets criticized for being too conservative with a lead, but again the numbers show that he is about league average when it comes to running the ball with a lead int he second half.  In fact one loss I blame on coaching was against Tampa Bay in '10 when the Bengals threw the ball when they should not have.  He gets criticized for using time out  early but I see other teams do that all the time.  

But the criticism for his sideline demeanor and press conferences is just ridiculous.  In fact it proves my point that many people here have a personal hatred for Marvin more because of his personality than how he coaches.  Personally I don't care about a coaches demeanor as long as he is not embarrassing the team.  Screaming and yelling is not as effective as many people here think.  It might work with high school kids, but you don't win at the NFL based on your ability to scream.

So I think Marvin does not have one big weakness.  Instead it is a lot of little things.  

Finally I think too many people around here give coaching all the blame and credit for everything, but in fact, except for a couple of rare exceptions pretty much every coach has an up and down career that include winning seasons and losing seasons.  Marvin has not had "the most talented roster in the league" like some people claim.  The players who vote for the top 100 players do not agree.  the fans who vote for the pro Bowl do not agree.  The media members who pick the All-pro teams do not agree.  In fact the only people making that claim are usually trying to make up a reason to blame Marvin.

In summary, you don't think Marv has any major flaws and you have an excuse for 90% of his failures. At what point does the prime-time and playoff records become "not a coincidence"? This is Marv's 14th season and we have a mountain of evidence that involves 2 talented cores of players.

At what point do you stop making excuses (quality of opponent, not enough talent, etc) and start thinking maybe the problem is Marv and/or some of the more tenured coaches? Btw, if the team has lacked talent (you mention 05 and 09 specifically), then how did they win 21 games and division titles in those seasons? Does talent level only become evident in post season? We should've beaten the Sanchize Jets at home for sure. We were winning at half against the Steelers and Kitna came out hot, but per usual for the playoffs, we came out flat in the 2nd half.

Hell, then you got 5 more games after that. That's just playoffs. Not even touching on the prime time record. I could see excusing a couple games, but 7? At some point you have to stop picking out excuses for each individual game and start looking at the whole picture. 7 playoff games is plenty of evidence.