(10-21-2016, 03:15 PM)xxlt Wrote: Pretty much sums it up. Especially the 28-52 part. 

That is much better than 19-61

(10-21-2016, 03:15 PM)xxlt Wrote: Pretty much sums it up. Especially the 28-52 part. And, Brownshoe didn't mention it, so I will go ahead and add two words: Dan Snyder.

Mike Brown.

(10-21-2016, 03:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin took over a worse team than Gruden and went 21-17 over his first 38 games.

Gruden is 17-21.  He did make the playoffs last year, but he had a ridiculous easy schedule that had only THREE games against teams with winning records.  He lost all 3.  

Marvin was only 8-8 in his second season but he had a brutal schedule with 9 games against teams with winning records.  He won 2 of those 9 games.

And for Marvin to get above .500 he had to have the talent levels of Palmer, Chad, Housh, an amazing OL, Rudi Johnson, Justin Smith, ect ect.... Gruden had to have 3 different QBs his first year coaching. He had a bad OL and a alright running game. His defense was probably worse than ours at that point too.

Pretty much Gruden won his division with very little, and Marvin had to have some of the best players in the league to do it.

(10-21-2016, 03:26 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: And for Marvin to get above .500 he had to have the talent levels of Palmer, Chad, Housh, an amazing OL, Rudi Johnson, Justin Smith, ect ect.... Gruden had to have 3 different QBs his first year coaching. He had a bad OL and a alright running game. His defense was probably worse than ours at that point too.

Pretty much Gruden won his division with very little, and Marvin had to have some of the best players in the league to do it.

This is what we used to call pwning back in the old days. Take notes kids. It can be fun.

(10-21-2016, 03:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Right because Marvin has never rebounded from a losing season to win the division or make the playoffs.

Yeah, just skip over my point about Marvin couldn't do it with the talent level Gruden has. Gruden has taken a backup QB and made that offense work. Marvin had a #1 overall pick with a amazing OL and 2 of the best bengals receivers with a good run game and he's never won a playoff game. Seems pretty clear to me that Gruden is already leaps and bounds better.

(10-21-2016, 03:29 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Yeah, just skip over my point about Marvin couldn't do it with the talent level Gruden has. Gruden has taken a backup QB and made that offense work. Marvin had a #1 overall pick with a amazing OL and 2 of the best bengals receivers with a good run game and he's never won a playoff game. Seems pretty clear to me that Gruden is already leaps and bounds better.

Reminds me of that song, Apache (Jump Pwn It).

(10-21-2016, 03:29 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Yeah, just skip over my point about Marvin couldn't do it with the talent level Gruden has. Gruden has taken a backup QB and made that offense work. Marvin had a #1 overall pick with a amazing OL and 2 of the best bengals receivers with a good run game and he's never won a playoff game. Seems pretty clear to me that Gruden is already leaps and bounds better.

And you are skipping over the fact that Gruden has not done anything close to what Marvin did.

He won nine games with the easiest schedule I have ever seen and did not beat a single team with a winning record.  I agree that he does not have a lot of talent, but how can he be "leaps and bounds" better when he has not accomplished anything.

(10-21-2016, 03:26 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Pretty much Gruden won his division with very little, and Marvin had to have some of the best players in the league to do it.

Marvin had to beat three teams with winning records to win his division title, and he only lost one game to a team with a losing record

Gruden went 0-3 against teams with winning records, and he lost 4 games to teams with losing records.  Grudens winning percentage just against teams with losing records (.692) was lower than Marvin's overall record (.733) which included 7 games against teams with winning records.

There is no comparison between those two teams.  

(10-21-2016, 04:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And you are skipping over the fact that Gruden has not done anything close to what Marvin did.

He won nine games with the easiest schedule I have ever seen and did not beat a single team with a winning record.  I agree that he does not have a lot of talent, but how can he be "leaps and bounds" better when he has not accomplished anything.

.000% winning percentage in the playoffs in 13 years vs .000% winning percentage in the playoffs in 2 years... Seems like he's doing just as much if not more than Marvin considering he's won his division in his second year and Marvin didn't until his 3rd year.

(10-21-2016, 04:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin had to beat three teams with winning records to win his division title, and he only lost one game to a team with a losing record

Gruden went 0-3 against teams with winning records, and he lost 4 games to teams with losing records.  Grudens winning percentage just against teams with losing records (.692) was lower than Marvin's overall record (.733) which included 7 games against teams with winning records.

There is no comparison between those two teams.  

If you gave the talent that the Bengals had when Marvin had those records the Redskins probably would win the super bowl. They already look like a legit team with a far inferior QB and OL and receiving weapons. They have about the same defense as we did, but Gruden is doing just as much with a LOT less, and I guess you don't want to acknowledge that. Cousins/RGIII/McCoy is no where near the QB as what Palmer was, and the Redskins receivers couldn't even dream about being as good as Chad and Housh. The OL difference is about the same. The Bengals had one of the most dominant lines in the game, and the Redskins have a middle of the pack OL.

Gruden is out coaching Marvin, but Marvin had WAAAAAAAY more talent... WAAAAY more, and that's the ONLY reason why Marvin had a better record.

EDIT: Marvin went 5-5 against teams with a worse than .500 record his first year. You said that he only lost one game against teams with losing record... Yeah, they lost 5 times more than what you said JUST their first year. And where did you get that Marvin had a .733 win %? His first two years he went .500 and his 3rd year (his second best year he's ever had) was .6875. The ONLY time he had anywhere close to .733 win % was in 2015.

(10-21-2016, 04:45 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: EDIT: Marvin went 5-5 against teams with a worse than .500 record his first year. You said that he only lost one game against teams with losing record... Yeah, they lost 5 times more than what you said JUST their first year. And where did you get that Marvin had a .733 win %? His first two years he went .500 and his 3rd year (his second best year he's ever had) was .6875. The ONLY time he had anywhere close to .733 win % was in 2015.

I was responding to your post about the level of talent Marvin needed to win his Division title.

(10-21-2016, 04:45 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: If you gave the talent that the Bengals had when Marvin had those records the Redskins probably would win the super bowl. They already look like a legit team with a far inferior QB and OL and receiving weapons. They have about the same defense as we did, but Gruden is doing just as much with a LOT less, and I guess you don't want to acknowledge that.

I refuse to acknowledge that a coach who has a losing career record and can not beat any teams with winning records has done anything.

(10-21-2016, 05:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I refuse to acknowledge that a coach who has a losing career record and can not beat any teams with winning records has done anything.

He's done as much as Marvin did so far in his career with less.

Marvin Lewis first 2 years. 0 division titles. 1 team above .500 in his division the first year (10-6), and 2 teams above .500 his 2nd year
Jay Gruden first 2 years. 1 division title. 2 teams above .500 in his division the first year, and 1 team above .500 his 2nd year

Marvin Lewis didn't have to deal with having 3 QBs having to start his first year, Jay Gruden did. The first year Jay Gruden had a starting QB the whole year (his second year) he won the division. Jay Gruden took a team that was a dumpster fire and made them a division champion in 2 years, and he's 4-2 his 3rd year where his division is stronger than our division currently. Jay Gruden has out coached Marvin Lewis. Marvin Lewis just had more talent to carry him to victory. Sorry the facts get in the way of your opinion.

Jay Gruden 0-1 in the playoffs in 2 years of being a HC
Marvin Lewis 0-7 in the playoffs in 13 years of being a HC

Jay Gruden 1 division title in 2 years of being a HC
Marvin Lewis 4 division titles in 13 years of being a HC

Jay Gruden > Marvin Lewis

(10-21-2016, 05:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I refuse to acknowledge that a coach who has a losing career record and can not beat any teams with winning records has done anything.

I will make a sig bet with you that one of our old coordinators will win a playoff game before Marvin. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Gruden wins a playoff game this season. Marvin Lewis might not even make it to the dance.

(10-21-2016, 11:13 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I will make a sig bet with you that one of our old coordinators will win a playoff game before Marvin. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Gruden wins a playoff game this season. Marvin Lewis might not even make it to the dance.

Does that include Zimmer, because he's liable to win the whole damn thing.

(10-21-2016, 05:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I refuse to acknowledge that a coach who has a losing career record and can not beat any teams with winning records has done anything.

Last year was the first year in his career as a player, coordinator, or coach that Gruden did not make the playoffs...ever.

But I'm sure he is cuddled up in the fetal position sucking his thumb in dire sadness because he doesn't have your acknowledgment.  

Maybe Marv can suddenly find some balls and go 3-0 against his old coordinators:

Hue, this week
Jay, next week
Zim, Super Bowl Week?

(10-21-2016, 05:44 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: He's done as much as Marvin did so far in his career with less.

Marvin Lewis first 2 years. 0 division titles. 1 team above .500 in his division the first year (10-6), and 2 teams above .500 his 2nd year
Jay Gruden first 2 years. 1 division title. 2 teams above .500 in his division the first year, and 1 team above .500 his 2nd year

Marvin Lewis first two years....16-16, 5-7 against playoff teams.

Jay Gruden first two years....13-20, 1-7 against playoff teams.

You can make all the excuses you want, but none of it matters because Gruden did not accomplish anything of note his first two seasons.  Winning a division title doesn't mean anything when you have a ridiculously easy schedule that includes only 3 teams with a winning record and you can't beat a single one of them.  In Grudens second season he won .692 against teams that did not have winning records and .000% against teams with winning records.  If he had had a schedule as tough as Marvin's second season (9 games against teams with winning records) he would have only won 4 or 5 games.

All I hear in the "Marvin is the worst coach ever" threads is "Wins don't matter if he can't beat the best teams", but then when Gruden's name come up it is "Gruden is an amazing coach even though he never beats any good teams at all."  The mental gymnastics and hypocrisy you use to bash Marvin is outrageous.

(10-22-2016, 10:10 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Last year was the first year in his career as a player, coordinator, or coach that Gruden did not make the playoffs...ever.

You mean '14, and that was the first year as a player, coordinator, or coach in the NFL that he was not working under Marvin Lewis.

(10-22-2016, 08:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin Lewis first two years....16-16, 5-7 against playoff teams.

Jay Gruden first two years....13-20, 1-7 against playoff teams.

You can make all the excuses you want, but none of it matters because Gruden did not accomplish anything of note his first two seasons.  Winning a division title doesn't mean anything when you have a ridiculously easy schedule that includes only 3 teams with a winning record and you can't beat a single one of them.  In Grudens second season he won .692 against teams that did not have winning records and .000% against teams with winning records.  If he had had a schedule as tough as Marvin's second season (9 games against teams with winning records) he would have only won 4 or 5 games.

All I hear in the "Marvin is the worst coach ever" threads is "Wins don't matter if he can't beat the best teams", but then when Gruden's name come up it is "Gruden is an amazing coach even though he never beats any good teams at all."  The mental gymnastics and hypocrisy you use to bash Marvin is outrageous.

Marvin Lewis had MUCH better talent his second year than Gruden. If Marvin Lewis had to work with what Gruden is working with he wouldn't even go 4-12. Marvin Lewis had Carson Palmer, and Gruden had Cousins. He had a lot of good weapons on offense with Palmer too, and a good offensive line. If Gruden had what Lewis had then Gruden would probably have already won at least a playoff game his first couple years. The reason why you hear that with Marvin is because he's had teams with MORE talent than the teams that beat him in the playoffs.

If Marvin Lewis is such an amazing coach make that sig bet with me. The reason why you won't take that bet is you know you're wrong. You have defended the coaching staff so much you can't admit that you were wrong about them. I get it.

While I believe Marv has done a great job in changing how Mikey Brown thinks, as a coach Marv's a pussycat. Players just are not disciplined enough to beat the top teams. We see it year in and year out in the playoffs and in key games. I'm sure listing those games is unnecessary.