(07-15-2015, 06:51 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: They have better numbers because they've been around since '10.

I am looking at career averages to make it whole.

I also do not give a break for injury, in fact I take it hurts those averages.

That is just my criteria, I have no idea what the Bengal's criteria will be, but I am guessing everything he has done or not done will be on the table. They don't give contracts for potential and the Bengals feel their QB is very good (or they would not have resigned him).

(07-16-2015, 08:36 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: 1. I am looking at career averages to make it whole.

I also do not give a break for injury, in fact I take it hurts those averages.

2. That is just my criteria, I have no idea what the Bengal's criteria will be, but I am guessing everything he has done or not done will be on the table. 3. They don't give contracts for potential 4. and the Bengals feel their QB is very good (or they would not have resigned him).

1. There's more to being a good WR than career average yards and TDs. I'm sure you've watched alll 3 play in their respective schemes and I'd hope anyone with eyes could see that it's tough to make the claim that any of these guys are obviously better than the others. Now, in my opinion, it goes Dez > A.J. > DT. It's absolutely arguable to switch those around though. Since 2012, all 3 of these guys have been in the top 15 in yards per pass routes run with about 50 eligible receivers each year. Since 2011, all 3 guys have each been near the top of deep ball catching rates at least once. With the exception of 2011 where Dez only dropped 1 pass, all 3 guys have surprisingly been right around each other in drop rate each year.

2 & 3. So in statement 2 you don't know what their criteria will be but in statement 3 you do know that they don't give contracts for potential? Very interesting, please tell me more about how you don't know but you do know what the Bengals do.

4. Some people on here wish that Andy resigned, but he actually re-signed. Anyway, with this logic, any team that re-signs any player means said team feels he is "very good"?? That's quite the leap from reality and a nice spin to try and prop up Andy. Unfortunately, we all know that players are re-signed, signed, released, and traded for many, many reasons. A guy getting re-signed hardly automatically makes them "very good". The Bengals know what they have. They have a guy that is average that has shown flashes of greatness and also flashes of quite the opposite. His contract proves quite the opposite of them believing he's "very good", it shows they have a guy that could be considered a franchise QB so he's not bad, but he isn't "very good" either. Low guaranteed money, outs in the contract, escalators for improvement, and below market value cap hits for the first couple/few years of the deal prove exactly what they think of him. I'm not saying they re-signed him because they think he sucks, please don't get confused by my points, I'm simply stating that the assumption that they "re-signed him because they feel he's very good" is extremely off-base if you're willing to look at the facts of the situation.

Give AJ the same contract and have it as an extension added on to his current one.
So he would count the same this year against the cap, and then you'd know what you have for next year, then we'd have him locked up for 6 instead of 5 years.

Dez, DT, and Greene all have elite skills. You have to split hairs to find much difference between them. If AJ signs a contract extenion this year he will get pretty close to the same deal as these guys. If he wits until next year he will get a little more because contracts go up every year.

Mike Brown has alwasy been willing to pay top dollar for his top stars. I am pretty confident that we will pay AJ to keep him here.

I'd almost rather trade AJ than sign him to a big time deal

(07-16-2015, 10:15 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I'd almost rather trade AJ than sign him to a big time deal

Without Green our WR corps is weak.  How many times do you see a guy who had some success playing the #2 WR fail when moved up to the #1 position.  And honestly Marvin Jones' best season was just average at best.  And behind him we don't have much at all.  Sanu could be effective out of the slot, but he is not that impressive either.

Green is a proven star.  When you get a player like that you need to pay him.

(07-16-2015, 10:19 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Without Green our WR corps is weak.  How many times do you see a guy who had some success playing the #2 WR fail when moved up to the #1 position.  And honestly Marvin Jones' best season was just average at best.  And behind him we don't have much at all.  Sanu could be effective out of the slot, but he is not that impressive either.

Green is a proven star.  When you get a player like that you need to pay him.

How many teams paying big money at WR get deep in the playoffs? 




Paying big money at WR can sometimes be a fools errand. 

History lends itself to not spending big at WR. 
The talent at WR is ridiculous thanks to the new rules. 

(07-15-2015, 10:01 PM)jj22 Wrote: Floor, not so much. Ceiling, ok. I think we're wise enough not to sell the farm for a receiver. If it's a superbowl we want. He should get a similar deal and we should move on. The price is only going to go up if all goes as well as we hope this season.

I agree, inflation in the NFL is ridiculous!

The qb can be an argument if your desperate for one, but truly great receivers won't make that argument. We've seen what Megatron has done with 3rd string qb's when Stafford struggled to stay healthy. He still put up elite numbers, led the league, as did Gordon, as did D.T with Tebow, as did Steve Smith pre Cam, etc. The qb isn't really an excuse for Green. Besides we've seen his issues show up with elite qb's (Brees, and Luck) in the probowl (dropped passes, miscommunication and being manhandled by physical corners). Brees even had to pull him aside for a talking to when he repeatedly struggled to connect with him.

He should get a fair contract tho. But an elite receiver can make an average qb. If Green needs an elite qb to be elite then not sure he is as good as we think.

(07-16-2015, 10:50 AM)jj22 Wrote:  The qb isn't really an excuse for Green.

Green doesn't need an excuse.  Everyone around the league considers him an elite WR.  This is not really disputed anywhere.  

Maybe, although his top 100 ranking would say otherwise. And you can't blame that ranking on him missing time as others were ranked high who missed a lot of time. And take a look at the wideouts ranked higher then him...

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-top100-2015

We are debating if he's on the D.T, Dez level, when you have wideouts like T.Y, ODB, Nelson, Brown and Julio getting more respect around the league.

I'm not trying to slam Green, but he's falling in his ranking as a wideout over the years. He isn't looked at as 2nd to Megatron anymore. Hasn't been for a couple years.

It's painful to see Julio viewed so highly over him.

(07-16-2015, 10:50 AM)jj22 Wrote: The qb can be an argument if your desperate for one, but truly great receivers won't make that argument. We've seen what Megatron has done with 3rd string qb's when Stafford struggled to stay healthy. He still put up elite numbers, led the league, as did Gordon, as did D.T with Tebow, as did Steve Smith pre Cam, etc. The qb isn't really an excuse for Green. Besides we've seen his issues show up with elite qb's (Brees, and Luck) in the probowl (dropped passes, miscommunication and being manhandled by physical corners). Brees even had to pull him aside for a talking to when he repeatedly struggled to connect with him.

He should get a fair contract tho. But an elite receiver can make an average qb. If Green needs an elite qb to be elite then not sure he is as good as we think.

DT had 32 catches, 551 yards, and 4 TDs with Tebow. Interesting that every year after that, he's been considered one of the best WRs in the league. More changed than just the offensive scheme.

Any of those guys would look even better than they already do if they had Aaron Rodgers throwing the ball to them for a full season. I don't know how anybody could argue that. At the end of the day, these guys will still have similar statistics as they already do due to scheming and whatnot. Calvin Johnson wouldn't see 300 targets if he had Luck or Rodgers throwing him the ball, so his statlines would still be about what they are today, it just may look a bit more pretty and efficient in the process.

You pretty much said it without realizing it that A.J. IS elite because he's able to put up great numbers catching balls from a non-elite QB. You said the truly great receivers don't the QB excuse, well A.J. doesn't need it, which with your logic makes him great/elite.

Nobody outside of a Bengals message board (strangely enough) thinks A.J. Green is anything but one of the top receivers in the NFL right now.

(07-16-2015, 11:09 AM)jj22 Wrote: Maybe, although his top 100 ranking would say otherwise. And you can't blame that ranking on him missing time as others were ranked high who missed a lot of time. And take a look at the wideouts ranked higher then him...

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-top100-2015

We are debating if he's on the D.T, Dez level, when you have wideouts like T.Y, ODB, Nelson, Brown and Julio getting more respect around the league.

I'm not trying to slam Green, but he's falling in his ranking as a wideout over the years. He isn't looked at as 2nd to Megatron anymore. Hasn't been for a couple years.

It's painful to see Julio viewed so highly over him.

You did this 2 years ago too when you claimed that our team's roster wasn't very good because we didn't have a lot of players in the NFL Network's Top 100 Players list.

Honestly, why do you put so much stock into that propaganda? It seems like an extremely odd thing to do. Some silly list that has continuously excluded some great players around the league year after year should not be viewed as the gospel of a player's talent and ability.

(07-16-2015, 11:09 AM)jj22 Wrote:  Hasn't been for a couple years.

According to your top 100 list Green was the 16th best player in the entire league in 2013.

He dropped last year because he was injured.  No one would argue that he got that much worse in just one year.

(07-16-2015, 11:33 AM)fredtoast Wrote: He dropped last year because he was injured.  No one would argue that he got that much worse in just one year.

A.J. gained 1.56 yards per snap last year
A.J. gained 1.35 yards per snap in 2013

A.J. led the league gaining an absurd 2.96 yards per pass route run last year
A.J. gained 2.28 yards per pass route run in 2013

I'd say that it's fair to say he didn't "decline", and that his volume numbers simply went down due to injury. It's not like he's a 37 year old receiver where his acceleration and hips hit a brick wall and dropped out of nowhere.

(07-16-2015, 11:29 AM)djs7685 Wrote: You did this 2 years ago too when you claimed that our team's roster wasn't very good because we didn't have a lot of players in the NFL Network's Top 100 Players list.

Honestly, why do you put so much stock into that propaganda? It seems like an extremely odd thing to do. Some silly list that has continuously excluded some great players around the league year after year should not be viewed as the gospel of a player's talent and ability.

I'm trying to figure out where you and fred are getting people outside of this board think he's a top 3 receiver anymore. I can't find anything. If anything the league (all we have to go by is these rankings, much like you guys go by the qb rankings) shows otherwise. What else can we go by as it relates to respect across the league. If these lists validate peoples stance on Dalton, why not for any other player?

http://athlonsports.com/nfl/2015-nfl-player-rankings-wide-receivers

There are plenty of updated receiver rankings and what may be surprising to you guys, but AJ is ranked pretty much out of the top 10 in most. I can find plenty more, but maybe you guys can provide me proof that the league respects him. I have news for you. The rankings you will find as of 2015 shows something different. It's crazy, but AJ has fallen far from grace as it relates to him being viewed as an elite receiver. That's just fact. I'd keep posting links, but I'm not trying to slam him. Just surprised some on this board hasn't caught up to the times. This isn't 2012 when he was top 3.

(07-16-2015, 11:33 AM)fredtoast Wrote: According to your top 100 list Green was the 16th best player in the entire league in 2013.

He dropped last year because he was injured.  No one would argue that he got that much worse in just one year.

he wasn't injured no more than ODBJ or Julio. And look where they were ranked. There are names on that list that didn't even play 3/4th the year. If AJ was believed to be elite across the league, he would have maintained his elite status regardless of injury. I believe.

Other than play in 60 of a possible 64 games, immediately contribute as a rookie, become one of the top players in the NFL, personally account for 1/3rd of Dalton's total passing yards and touchdowns, and help reverse a losing culture in Cincinnati what as AJ Green ever done for the Bengals!?

SERIOUSLYYYYY>>>!!!!N!!NN!!1!!!!

There are too many wideout power rankings showing AJ out of the top 10 for 2015. I challenge you guys who say he's still believed to be elite (top 5) to provide links you can find from 2015. Brace yourself though. The names you'll see that are ranked higher than him will alarm you.

(07-16-2015, 12:04 PM)jj22 Wrote: There are too many wideout power rankings showing AJ out of the top 10 for 2015. I challenge you guys who say he's still believed to be elite (top 5) to provide links you can find from 2015. Brace yourself though. The names you'll see that are ranked higher than him will alarm you.

Is one of them Marvin Jones?  Because he'd be our next man up, wouldn't he?