I don't care what Fred says, there were plenty people who had Ced going in the 3rd round. He was a major reach and I was personally shocked we took him. I think we were the only team that had him on our radar in the 1st. I'm not going to go looking for articles to prove it, but I trust my memory and draft board and I remember Ced being a significant reach. Only person that said he would be top 5 if wasn't for injury was PA. Then again PA fought to trade UP for Bodine.

(11-17-2016, 05:02 PM)jj22 Wrote: I don't care what Fred says, there were plenty people who had Ced going in the 3rd round. He was a major reach and I was personally shocked we took him. I think we were the only team that had him on our radar in the 1st. I'm not going to go looking for articles to prove it, but I trust my memory and draft board and I remember Ced being a significant reach. Only person that said he would be top 5 if wasn't for injury was PA. Then again PA fought to trade UP for Bodine.

I'm going out on a limb here and say that you may be in the majority on this.

And yes, once again, PA is a numbskull.

(11-17-2016, 05:02 PM)Wyche Wrote: Those were the years when PFF didn't matter

Oh, you mean the years where Fred said PFF was wrong and Kirkpatrick was the 16-17th best CB in the NFL last year rather than among the 10 worst? (Thankfully he has improved this year.)

Lol, Fred gonna Fred.

(11-17-2016, 04:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Funny you would say that when you do more bitching moaning and complaining than I do.

(11-17-2016, 05:30 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Oh, you mean the years where Fred said PFF was wrong and Kirkpatrick was the 16-17th best CB in the NFL last year rather than among the 10 worst? (Thankfully he has improved this year.)

Lol, Fred gonna Fred.

Fred just don't care yall,

(11-17-2016, 05:02 PM)Wyche Wrote: Those were the years when PFF didn't matter

Sorry, but I still don't understand what you are trying to say.

I have never said that any years of PFF rankings do not matter.

(11-17-2016, 05:30 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Oh, you mean the years where Fred said PFF was wrong and Kirkpatrick was the 16-17th best CB in the NFL last year rather than among the 10 worst? (Thankfully he has improved this year.)

Lol, Fred gonna Fred.

I posted actually stats to show that he was among the top 30.

All you could ever come up with was the PFF individual rankings which are so flawed that a player can be ranked ahead of another despite playing fewer snaps and messing up more often.  PFF individual rankings were a joke and that is all you had.

Lot's of people taking personal shots at me while running away from the PFF stats that show what a good job PA has done at coaching pass protection before this year.

I'll come back when some of you want to address the facts instead of just trying to insult me.

(11-17-2016, 06:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lot's of people taking personal shots at me while running away from the PFF stats that show what a good job PA has done at coaching pass protection before this year.

I'll come back when some of you want to address the facts instead of just trying to insult me.

Fred is absolutely right. PFF has rated the Bengals OL one of the best for the past few years at least. They even mention it in the link providing in the OP.
"For years, the Bengals had one of the league’s best lines..."

Where the discrepancy would always lie when people argued this topic the past few years or so was "Player X is bad" vs "Well, the OL as a whole is ranked really high". Kind of like "Paul Janish sucks" vs "When he plays, the team as a whole performs better".

This year, not only is the OL uncharacteristically bad, but two players specifically were identified as the main culprits (one who has been labeled the weakest link for the past few years).

Fred is right the offensive line has mostly been good since Paul has been here. This year it's been bad an it comes at a complete shock to most people on this board. Paul is a well respected coach in the NFl and if the Bengals fired him he would have a job in a minute. Also let's not forget because of the new CBA there has been a lot of complaining about coaches not having enough time to develop young offensive lineman.

(11-17-2016, 06:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I posted actually stats to show that he was among the top 30.

All you could ever come up with was the PFF individual rankings which are so flawed that a player can be ranked ahead of another despite playing fewer snaps and messing up more often.  PFF individual rankings were a joke and that is all you had.

You called him an "average #1 CB", which would mean the 16th or 17th. I remember it clearly, because we all made fun of you for it. Many laughs were had.

(11-17-2016, 06:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lot's of people taking personal shots at me while running away from the PFF stats that show what a good job PA has done at coaching pass protection before this year.

I'll come back when some of you want to address the facts instead of just trying to insult me.

---

That is correct.



Too bad some people are too dense to figure this out even though it has been explained numerous times.



But you agree that their system for ranking units is not flawed like the way they rank individual, right Wyche?  You are not one of those dunderheads who just like the rankings when they say what you want them to, correct?

---

Cry a little harder fred.  Hypocrite.

(11-17-2016, 06:40 PM)JumboTron Wrote:

---

That is correct.



Too bad some people are too dense to figure this out even though it has been explained numerous times.



But you agree that their system for ranking units is not flawed like the way they rank individual, right Wyche?  You are not one of those dunderheads who just like the rankings when they say what you want them to, correct?

---

Cry a little harder fred.  Hypocrite.

Much like PFF rankings, insults are only okay when Fred decides they are okay. You should know this.

(11-17-2016, 04:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is correct.

Too bad some people are too dense to figure this out even though it has been explained numerous times.

But you agree that their system for ranking units is not flawed like the way they rank individual, right Wyche?  You are not one of those dunderheads who just like the rankings when they say what you want them to, correct?

That's the rub though. If you consider PFF's individual rankings to be flawed and a 'complete joke' as you've said many times, then it creates a problem when you want to insist that their unit rankings are any better. 


To come up with their unit rankings, individual rankings have to factor in. According to PFF (specifically concerning O-line rankings):


"This isn’t the result of which team has the best five players starting, but looks at every player who played a snap on the line, and measures how well they did their job."


Also, PFF rankings certainly have a degree of subjectivity and interpretation. From founder Neil Hornsby:


"It might even look to us like somebody made a mistake but then we look at it more closely maybe somebody besides him made a mistake and he was trying to compensate. I think we need a little closer analysis a lot of times. Sometimes the play calls or what was called on the line of scrimmage might be something that we’re not aware of. That could happen in any game. You think a player did something that he shouldn’t have done but maybe he got a call, a line call or a call from a linebacker or he thought the quarterback said something so he did what he thought was the right thing or maybe it was the right thing but that call shouldn’t have been made or should have been on the other side. But yeah, I think we need to be careful about what we’re evaluating."


So, either the general formula is flawed or it's not. You can say that unit rankings are better, but they are part of the same basic formula. You can't say part of it is a complete joke, and then try to sell another part as legit. Well, you can, but that argument probably won't be taken very seriously. 

(11-17-2016, 06:58 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: That's the rub though. If you consider PFF's individual rankings to be flawed and a 'complete joke' as you've said many times, then it creates a problem when you want to insist that their unit rankings are any better. 


To come up with their unit rankings, individual rankings have to factor in. According to PFF (specifically concerning O-line rankings):


"This isn’t the result of which team has the best five players starting, but looks at every player who played a snap on the line, and measures how well they did their job."


Also, PFF rankings certainly have a degree of subjectivity and interpretation. From founder Neil Hornsby:


"It might even look to us like somebody made a mistake but then we look at it more closely maybe somebody besides him made a mistake and he was trying to compensate. I think we need a little closer analysis a lot of times. Sometimes the play calls or what was called on the line of scrimmage might be something that we’re not aware of. That could happen in any game. You think a player did something that he shouldn’t have done but maybe he got a call, a line call or a call from a linebacker or he thought the quarterback said something so he did what he thought was the right thing or maybe it was the right thing but that call shouldn’t have been made or should have been on the other side. But yeah, I think we need to be careful about what we’re evaluating."


So, either the general formula is flawed or it's not. You can say that unit rankings are better, but they are part of the same basic formula. You can't say part of it is a complete joke, and then try to sell another part as legit. Well, you can, but that argument probably won't be taken very seriously. 

I am pretty sure that the unit rankings are not just a compilation of individual rankings.  This same thing came up before when people accused me of picking and choosing when I would accept PFF rankings as valid.
I may be wrong, but do you have a link to explain how they come up with their unit rankings.

(11-17-2016, 06:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lot's of people taking personal shots at me while running away from the PFF stats that show what a good job PA has done at coaching pass protection before this year.

I'll come back when some of you want to address the facts instead of just trying to insult me.

My man.....you're the king of the personal shots.

(11-17-2016, 06:21 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Fred is absolutely right. PFF has rated the Bengals OL one of the best for the past few years at least. They even mention it in the link providing in the OP.
"For years, the Bengals had one of the league’s best lines..."

Where the discrepancy would always lie when people argued this topic the past few years or so was "Player X is bad" vs "Well, the OL as a whole is ranked really high". Kind of like "Paul Janish sucks" vs "When he plays, the team as a whole performs better".

This year, not only is the OL uncharacteristically bad, but two players specifically were identified as the main culprits (one who has been labeled the weakest link for the past few years).

Yes, when Big Willie, Bobbie, Steiny, Braham, and Levi were here, it was phenomenal.  It should have been, look at the talent and cost of it.  When it started to slide, Paino had no answers.  Palmer was wearing bloody noses, messed up shoulder, etc....we ran well, with a lot of unbalanced sets and lead backs from time to time.  That's taking weapons off the field.  Instead of looking for upgrades, we kept Roland around WAY TOO LONG, praised Livings and Cook.  Pressure up the middle of this unit has been a serious problem since Kyle Cook's lone good year.  Now, we have a hand picked protege, and look at him.  Hand picked 1st round, injured at draft time, RT....and look at him.  Maybe PA was good at one time, or maybe great talent helped him.  Right now, when a "guru" should be sprinkling his pixie dust and juju to fix it, we have an abomination.  Imagine the unit rankings without Whit's good play.

(11-17-2016, 06:38 PM)J24 Wrote: Fred is right the offensive line has mostly been good since Paul has been here. This year it's been bad an it comes at a complete shock to most people on this board. Paul is a well respected coach in the NFl and if the Bengals fired him he would have a job in a minute. Also let's not forget because of the new CBA there has been a lot of complaining about coaches not having enough time to develop young offensive lineman.

Maybe, but why no offers from other teams?  I mean, if he's the best there is, why hasn't a guy like Belichick came calling?  I mean, if I was the best at what I do, I wouldn't be in Cincy.....I'd be trying to win a ring in NE, soakin up rays in sunny Cali, taking on the Big Apple with a possible shot at hoisting hardware.....etc.  I just don't see it.

(11-17-2016, 03:19 PM)Wyche Wrote: Well......we must remember, PFF rankings only matter some of the time.......

And...The Browns are rated way above the Bengal O line. Damn, Paulie. :paul:

(11-17-2016, 07:38 PM)Wyche Wrote: My man.....you're the king of the personal shots.


Yes, when Big Willie, Bobbie, Steiny, Braham, and Levi were here, it was phenomenal.  It should have been, look at the talent and cost of it.  When it started to slide, Paino had no answers.  Palmer was wearing bloody noses, messed up shoulder, etc....we ran well, with a lot of unbalanced sets and lead backs from time to time.  That's taking weapons off the field.  Instead of looking for upgrades, we kept Roland around WAY TOO LONG, praised Livings and Cook.  Pressure up the middle of this unit has been a serious problem since Kyle Cook's lone good year.  Now, we have a hand picked protege, and look at him.  Hand picked 1st round, injured at draft time, RT....and look at him.  Maybe PA was good at one time, or maybe great talent helped him.  Right now, when a "guru" should be sprinkling his pixie dust and juju to fix it, we have an abomination.  Imagine the unit rankings without Whit's good play.


Maybe, but why no offers from other teams?  I mean, if he's the best there is, why hasn't a guy like Belichick came calling?  I mean, if I was the best at what I do, I wouldn't be in Cincy.....I'd be trying to win a ring in NE, soakin up rays in sunny Cali, taking on the Big Apple with a possible shot at hoisting hardware.....etc.  I just don't see it.

Maybe because he is under contract here and he has a nice gig here. Also the Bengals can block anymove unless it's for head coach.

(11-17-2016, 09:22 PM)J24 Wrote: Maybe because he is under contract here and he has a nice gig here. Also the Bengals can block anymove unless it's for head coach.

Boy does he ever.  Work for an organization in which you are never held accountable, foam at the mouth how those who question the performance of men under his tutelage are engaging in a "witch-hunt", all the while having more than a handful of some terribly misguided followers of the franchise defend him on the basis of prior speaking engagements.

All this on top of collecting a nice pay check as our franchise QB is almost murdered week in and week out due directly to his incompetence.  Yep, he has it good.  We, however, have it terrible.

(11-17-2016, 02:52 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Paul Alexander would disagree.



He is the best offensive line coach eevvvvvvvaaaaarrrrrr!

Paul Alexander is having a love affair with Bodine and they've invited Og out with them tomorrow night for drinks and some manly dirty dancing. Nothing else makes any sense as to why he stands there defending these two.