(11-30-2016, 02:39 AM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: So now you want me to go look up games since you know I don't have the exact games in front of me lol man I watched every game for the past 6 years, if you don't know this is common. You are dismissed from this convo.cause obviously you don't have a clue on what's going on. 

If you've watched every game and Dalton has this happen so often, you should have no problem finding numerous examples. As I thought, you can't because your claim is made up.

It's best you dismiss me to save some face.

What bothers me most about Dalton is that he panics when the pocket starts to break down and his first option is covered, he is really bad at improvising and extending the play. This usually leads to a bad turnover at the worst possible time. I don't trust him with a big game on the line.

(11-30-2016, 04:55 PM)Butchie Tiger Wrote: What bothers me most about Dalton is that he panics when the pocket starts to break down and his first option is covered, he is really bad at improvising and extending the play. This usually leads to a bad turnover at the worst possible time. I don't trust him with a big game on the line.

I used to see that, for sure.  The last two years have seen marked improvement in that facet of his game, IMO.  I see him rolling out and throwing on the run more, stepping up and taking shots as he delivers the ball, and the INTs are way down.  AS for your last statement, I would have to agree when it comes to the playoffs, we haven't seen the improved version of him there, but the old one wasn't too good.  I think he has played better in big games throughout the season the last couple of years, but the playoff woes linger.

(11-30-2016, 04:55 PM)Butchie Tiger Wrote: What bothers me most about Dalton is that he panics when the pocket starts to break down and his first option is covered, he is really bad at improvising and extending the play. This usually leads to a bad turnover at the worst possible time. I don't trust him with a big game on the line.

Actually, Dalton doesn't really make many bad throwing decisions once leaving the pocket. It's when there's predetermined throws and he's stuck in the pocket and is about to get hit that he makes a mistake. Once he rolls out, worst case it's thrown away.

We need to better improvise those plays all around in all honesty, since those are becoming a norm due to our offensive line

I posted this in the Mega-Dalton thread, but I'll bring it here too.

In Dalton's last 2 years (23 games)
He's only had 6 games where he had below an 80 QB rating in the past 2 years (not counting the Steelers game he was injured in).
In comparison, he's had 13 games where he had above a 100 QB rating. 2 more where he had above a 95 QB rating.
So 15 out of 23 times he's had a QB rating of 95 or higher.

Fun fact: Tom Brady has as many 95 or higher QB rating games as Dalton in the same amount of games the past two years.

Granted, Tom Brady has 3 games where he had below an 80 QB rating whereas Dalton has 6.

Dalton has been more consistent these past two years. Including this year with a bad line, lack of a run game, and a bad offensive coordinator.

Sure, there's been bad moments with Dalton this year. He's missed some throws and reads. Every QB does.

(11-30-2016, 01:43 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Ditto, and claiming Palmer had a substantially expanded playbook due to his arm is a silly made up claim to explain away the cheat sheet he's always had to use. Does every strong armed QB use a cheat sheet? No.

This doesn't mean Palmer was a bad QB, but he had weaknesses just like Dalton and just about any other good-but-not-elite QB.

To those saying Dalton is the king of batted balls, name a game where he had several batted down, other than this last one and his playoff game when he was a rookie. You can't, and that's why you had to go back 5 years to name another example.

This is a good example of a claim that sounds like a fact rather than an opinion. 

Here are a few links that describe why COACH Gruden, Garrett, O'Brien, and others explain Why NFL QB's such as Brees, Brady, Roethlisberger, Luck, Wilson, Palmer, Fitzpatrick, and many others use wristband playbooks . As their grasp of situational play calling develops (that is to say,  is expanding or becoming better) the wristband allows them more options. 

The point made by the NFL coaches  is the  smarter a QB becomes in the offense the more likely he will be to utilize the full playbook.  It stands to reason that if their ability to make all the throws corresponds with their heightened understanding of situational play calling,  they will have many more options to choose from. Now there is still a play clock to deal with and to sift thru all of the different situations (2 min offense,What- if defensive injury, personnel groupings on offense, weather, so on & so on) is why the wristband is invaluable to QB's who have enough grasp of the offense to execute. 

Your insinuation that it was or is a weakness of Palmer's is just totally inaccurate. Given that Andy has had to change OC's like most people change underwear may be a reason the wristband has not been implemented with him yet. 

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/cowboysheadlines/2013/07/26/cowboys-qb-tony-romo-using-wristband-to-streamline-play-calling-process

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/06/tom-brady-play-call-wristband-nfl-new-england-patriots

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/pittsburgh-steelers-nfl-features-news-blog-long-form/2014/10/27/7078969/ben-roethlisberger-is-finally-armed-with-the-weapon-hes-wanted

(11-28-2016, 02:25 PM)treee Wrote: That would imply that just "good" QBs can't win the super bowl, which we know is untrue. Hell, even Flacco has won one.

However Andy who is just "good" happens to be  strapped with an unsurmountable obstacle...son of paul.  He is handcuffed by a coach who is handcuffed by the owner.  

Even a true elite talent would stand next to no shot at a championship here...we have seen that story. 

(11-30-2016, 05:15 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Actually, Dalton doesn't really make many bad throwing decisions once leaving the pocket. It's when there's predetermined throws and he's stuck in the pocket and is about to get hit that he makes a mistake. Once he rolls out, worst case it's thrown away.

We need to better improvise those plays all around in all honesty, since those are becoming a norm due to our offensive line

Yes....like Anquan Bouldin bailing out Stafford under duress on Thanksgiving day by breaking off his route in the endzone and coming to Stafford.  Damn, I STILL hate we didn't ink him.

(11-30-2016, 07:25 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: However Andy who is just "good" happens to be  strapped with an unsurmountable obstacle...son of paul.  He is handcuffed by a coach who is handcuffed by the owner.  

Even a true elite talent would stand next to no shot at a championship here...we have seen that story. 

You said a mouthful there......agreed.

(11-30-2016, 01:43 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Ditto, and claiming Palmer had a substantially expanded playbook due to his arm is a silly made up claim to explain away the cheat sheet he's always had to use. Does every strong armed QB use a cheat sheet? No.

This doesn't mean Palmer was a bad QB, but he had weaknesses just like Dalton and just about any other good-but-not-elite QB.

To those saying Dalton is the king of batted balls, name a game where he had several batted down, other than this last one and his playoff game when he was a rookie. You can't, and that's why you had to go back 5 years to name another example.

If you don't think he's had a lot of balls batted down in his career, then I question how much of the games you actually watch? Because its been happening his whole career and multiple times. So many it would be impossible to remember each one.  I bring up the gm five years ago because it was a playoff game, his first playoff game to be exact, and it was a huge play at that point and somewhat of a ridiculous turnover.In fact It wasnt batted down it was intercepted and returned for a td by JJ Watt.  Ill say it again, I had very high hopes for him his first few years but he has not improved and that is what bothers me.

(12-01-2016, 03:01 AM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote: If you don't think he's had a lot of balls batted down in his career, then I question how much of the games you actually watch? Because its been happening his whole career and multiple times. So many it would be impossible to remember each one.  I bring up the gm five years ago because it was a playoff game, his first playoff game to be exact, and it was a huge play at that point and somewhat of a ridiculous turnover.In fact It wasnt batted down it was intercepted and returned for a td by JJ Watt.  Ill say it again, I had very high hopes for him his first few years but he has not improved and that is what bothers me.

You must have skipped the entire 2015 season.

The line is responsible for batted down balls, most sacks.. and the poor run game. They have been overrated since Dalton has been here so don't bring that up because I got "quickrelease". It was also proven when AJ was QB.

Instead of pushing our line retreats. And i mean retreats as in total collapse..players on the ground and shit.

They simply get their asses kicked.

This year, Andy barely has over a second to throw on most downs and when he does get more time i don't think he knows what to do with it. His rhythm is off.

I have said it before but..put your GOAT behind this line and scheme and 9/10 he will look bad. Our coaching is really that piss poor.

(12-01-2016, 03:01 AM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote: If you don't think he's had a lot of balls batted down in his career, then I question how much of the games you actually watch? Because its been happening his whole career and multiple times. So many it would be impossible to remember each one.  I bring up the gm five years ago because it was a playoff game, his first playoff game to be exact, and it was a huge play at that point and somewhat of a ridiculous turnover.In fact It wasnt batted down it was intercepted and returned for a td by JJ Watt.  Ill say it again, I had very high hopes for him his first few years but he has not improved and that is what bothers me.

I just don't see it. I'll file this under "Dalton bashers watch Dalton with a hyper critical eye and/or they don't watch other NFL QBs."

Batted balls happen. Yes, Dalton has had batted balls. No, it hasn't been substantially more than any other QB. I seriously cannot recall it ever being an issue outside of that first playoff game (he's called JJ Swatt for a reason) and this last game.

Look, I've been in all these Dalton debates dating back to when he was drafted. This is the first time "batted balls" has really come up. That should tell you something. Guys like mulligan would've never let a weakness go by un-discussed.

(12-01-2016, 03:01 AM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote: If you don't think he's had a lot of balls batted down in his career, then I question how much of the games you actually watch? Because its been happening his whole career and multiple times. So many it would be impossible to remember each one.  I bring up the gm five years ago because it was a playoff game, his first playoff game to be exact, and it was a huge play at that point and somewhat of a ridiculous turnover.In fact It wasnt batted down it was intercepted and returned for a td by JJ Watt.  Ill say it again, I had very high hopes for him his first few years but he has not improved and that is what bothers me.

I just don't see it. I'll file this under "Dalton bashers watch Dalton with a hyper critical eye and/or they don't watch other NFL QBs."

Batted balls happen. Yes, Dalton has had batted balls. No, it hasn't been substantially more than any other QB. I seriously cannot recall it ever being an issue outside of that first playoff game (he's called JJ Swatt for a reason) and this last game.

Look, I've been in all these Dalton debates dating back to when he was drafted. This is the first time "batted balls" has really come up. That should tell you something. Guys like mulligan would've never let a weakness go by un-discussed. Ad-nauseam.

(11-30-2016, 07:09 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: This is a good example of you making a claim like you are an authority of NFL football rather than a moderator of a chat board. 
Here are a few links that describe why COACH Gruden, Garrett, O'Brien, and others explain Why NFL QB's such as Brees, Brady, Roethlisberger, Luck, Wilson, Palmer, Fitzpatrick, and many others use wristband playbooks . As their grasp of situational play calling develops (that is to say,  is expanding or becoming better) the wristband allows them more options. 

The point made by the NFL coaches  is the  smarter a QB becomes in the offense the more likely he will be to utilize the full playbook.  It stands to reason that if their ability to make all the throws corresponds with their heightened understanding of situational play calling,  they will have many more options to choose from. Now there is still a play clock to deal with and to sift thru all of the different situations (2 min offense,What- if defensive injury, personnel groupings on offense, weather, so on & so on) is why the wristband is invaluable to QB's who have enough grasp of the offense to execute. 

Your insinuation that it was or is a weakness of Palmer's is just totally inaccurate. Given that Andy has had to change OC's like most people change underwear may be a reason the wristband has not been implemented with him yet. 

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/cowboysheadlines/2013/07/26/cowboys-qb-tony-romo-using-wristband-to-streamline-play-calling-process

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/06/tom-brady-play-call-wristband-nfl-new-england-patriots

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/pittsburgh-steelers-nfl-features-news-blog-long-form/2014/10/27/7078969/ben-roethlisberger-is-finally-armed-with-the-weapon-hes-wanted

  
"At Southern Cal, Carson eased into a share of the quarterback job with Mike Van Raaphorst. It marked just the second time in school history that a true freshman started for the Trojans. Hackett had little doubt his freshman could handle the team’s West Coast offense, but was worried about his ability to read signals from the sideline. Carson got his first start against Washington in early November. And sure enough, he blew a play. Quarterbacks coach Ken O’Brien made a motion Carson misread as a deep post pattern for wideout Billy Miller. He hit Miller for a 57-yard touchdown. O’Brien said “Nice call” when Carson trotted off the field, then told him the actual play he had wanted. The Trojans won 33-10, and Carson completed 18 of 31 passes for 279 yards. From that point on, Carson wore a wristband with the plays written out. He ended up starting the final five games for the Trojans, leading the team to an 8-5 record, including a trip to the Sun Bowl."

https://www.jockbio.com/Bios/CPalmer/CPalmer_bio.html

So no, it had nothing to do with Carson having an expanded amount of plays he could run due to his arm. It was his inability to read calls from the sideline that lead to him wearing the cheat sheet. 

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/cowboysheadlines/2013/07/26/cowboys-qb-tony-romo-using-wristband-to-streamline-play-calling-process

This article talks about Romo implementing a cheat sheet because he was having trouble getting plays in on time. It had nothing to do with expanded knowledge of the playbook.

PS: I haven't taken any shots at you, and I'd appreciate if you could treat me with the same respect.

(12-01-2016, 10:54 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I just don't see it. I'll file this under "Dalton bashers watch Dalton with a hyper critical eye and/or they don't watch other NFL QBs."

Batted balls happen. Yes, Dalton has had batted balls. No, it hasn't been substantially more than any other QB. I seriously cannot recall it ever being an issue outside of that first playoff game (he's called JJ Swatt for a reason) and this last game.

Look, I've been in all these Dalton debates dating back to when he was drafted. This is the first time "batted balls" has really come up. That should tell you something. Guys like mulligan would've never let a weakness go by un-discussed.

.....ah......good ol' mullsy.  Could it be there are some alts of his that have finally made it from the mother ship?

(12-01-2016, 11:28 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote:   
"At Southern Cal, Carson eased into a share of the quarterback job with Mike Van Raaphorst. It marked just the second time in school history that a true freshman started for the Trojans. Hackett had little doubt his freshman could handle the team’s West Coast offense, but was worried about his ability to read signals from the sideline. Carson got his first start against Washington in early November. And sure enough, he blew a play. Quarterbacks coach Ken O’Brien made a motion Carson misread as a deep post pattern for wideout Billy Miller. He hit Miller for a 57-yard touchdown. O’Brien said “Nice call” when Carson trotted off the field, then told him the actual play he had wanted. The Trojans won 33-10, and Carson completed 18 of 31 passes for 279 yards. From that point on, Carson wore a wristband with the plays written out. He ended up starting the final five games for the Trojans, leading the team to an 8-5 record, including a trip to the Sun Bowl."

https://www.jockbio.com/Bios/CPalmer/CPalmer_bio.html

So no, it had nothing to do with Carson having an expanded amount of plays he could run due to his arm. It was his inability to read calls from the sideline that lead to him wearing the cheat sheet. 

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/cowboysheadlines/2013/07/26/cowboys-qb-tony-romo-using-wristband-to-streamline-play-calling-process

This article talks about Romo implementing a cheat sheet because he was having trouble getting plays in on time. It had nothing to do with expanded knowledge of the playbook.

PS: I haven't taken any shots at you, and I'd appreciate if you could treat me with the same respect.

My apologies if you felt disrespected by my post. It was not the intent. 

The topic was the NFL not NCAA. Headset technology is not used at the college level. 
The article posted and the subsequent point attempting to be made has zero relevance to the discussion.  

To the second point. I am confident any reasonable person would agree a playbook containing more plays would without a doubt require more time to signal or call-in. There would be two options to eliminate this issue. Simplify the options (shrink the playbook) or develop a faster system to communicate all the options. 

As the QB has more ability to physically and mentally execute a wider variety of options the playbook will expand.  The wristband method is used to combat the time constraints of the play clock. 

As I stated your assertion that Palmer is "not intelligent" and needs a wristband is inaccurate and unfounded. Interestingly enough McNabb is said to have refused to use the wristband because he thought it would "be bad for my image". Meaning that there would be fans who do not understand the value of the wristband playbook and claim him to be less intelligent. A tag that he did not want...especially as it would be applied to a black QB. His thought was simply, why give some people unfounded reason to feel better about their own inadequacies by making inaccurate claims about him.

I do not believe Palmer bashers are trying to make themselves feel better, but more precisely feel better about Dalton.  
Palmer bashing runs rampant here and people grasp at mythical ideas in an effort to reconcile our current circumstances. It seems to stems from the fact that Palmer told son of Paul to kiss his ass. Many fans can't separate that he was not speaking to them, but rather  to the true cause of our angst...son of Paul. 

Not playing for son of Paul and being the QB for our beloved Bengals are NOT mutually exclusive. He could not do one without the other. There is no reasonable football mind who would claim  Andy has any physical skills that make him a better talent than Palmer. Those trying to make a case use intangibles like, "he is a winner", "he a leader", "he is smarter"  or "he has more class" as unprovable reasons to claim why they are better off with Andy as their QB. When a disjointed event occurs, such as wearing a wristband can be spun to give credence to one of the bullshit statements made by some it is seized  upon and spewed like fact. 

Son of Paul will ruin Andy's career. He will most likely go down as "not clutch","can't win a playoff game", or some other BS. Palmer was,and is currently a better QB option than Dalton even at 37...Palmer could not do it here under this owner, neither has Dalton...and I for one do not believe that Brady or any other QB would either. 

With a lack of accountability an organization will never reach it goals. That is true in real life and football too. 

To address the OP's statement...Andy is good, just not really good. 
He can be that without Palmer needing to being a bum, crybaby, quitter, classless, stupid, inadequate etc. See those two things are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. It feels a lot better to support all the Bengal's QB's (past and present) than to be forced into a one or the other camp. The only person who wins in that circumstances is son of Paul...he then is able to avoid his accountability because by the sheer nature of the argument,  fans assign sole accountability to one of these two QB's. 


 

(12-01-2016, 02:35 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: My apologies if you felt disrespected by my post. It was not the intent. 

The topic was the NFL not NCAA. Headset technology is not used at the college level. 
The article posted and the subsequent point attempting to be made has zero relevance to the discussion.  

To the second point. I am confident any reasonable person would agree a playbook containing more plays would without a doubt require more time to signal or call-in. There would be two options to eliminate this issue. Simplify the options (shrink the playbook) or develop a faster system to communicate all the options. 

As the QB has more ability to physically and mentally execute a wider variety of options the playbook will expand.  The wristband method is used to combat the time constraints of the play clock. 

As I stated your assertion that Palmer is "not intelligent" and needs a wristband is inaccurate and unfounded. Interestingly enough McNabb is said to have refused to use the wristband because he thought it would "be bad for my image". Meaning that there would be fans who do not understand the value of the wristband playbook and claim him to be less intelligent. A tag that he did not want...especially as it would be applied to a black QB. His thought was simply, why give some people unfounded reason to feel better about their own inadequacies by making inaccurate claims about him.

I do not believe Palmer bashers are trying to make themselves feel better, but more precisely feel better about Dalton.  
Palmer bashing runs rampant here and people grasp at mythical ideas in an effort to reconcile our current circumstances. It seems to stems from the fact that Palmer told son of Paul to kiss his ass. Many fans can't separate that he was not speaking to them, but rather  to the true cause of our angst...son of Paul. 

Not playing for son of Paul and being the QB for our beloved Bengals are NOT mutually exclusive. He could not do one without the other. There is no reasonable football mind who would claim  Andy has any physical skills that make him a better talent than Palmer. Those trying to make a case use intangibles like, "he is a winner", "he a leader", "he is smarter"  or "he has more class" as unprovable reasons to claim why they are better off with Andy as their QB. When a disjointed event occurs, such as wearing a wristband can be spun to give credence to one of the bullshit statements made by some it is seized  upon and spewed like fact. 

Son of Paul will ruin Andy's career. He will most likely go down as "not clutch","can't win a playoff game", or some other BS. Palmer was,and is currently a better QB option than Dalton even at 37...Palmer could not do it here under this owner, neither has Dalton...and I for one do not believe that Brady or any other QB would either. 

With a lack of accountability an organization will never reach it goals. That is true in real life and football too. 

To address the OP's statement...Andy is good, just not really good. 
He can be that without Palmer needing to being a bum, crybaby, quitter, classless, stupid, inadequate etc. See those two things are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. It feels a lot better to support all the Bengal's QB's (past and present) than to be forced into a one or the other camp. The only person who wins in that circumstances is son of Paul...he then is able to avoid his accountability because by the sheer nature of the argument,  fans assign sole accountability to one of these two QB's. 


 

Man, I gotta agree with the entirety of what you say in regards to the Palmer-Dalton-S.o.P dynamic.....aside from Palmer being as viable an option in 2016 as Dalton.  I think father time has caught up with him.  Palmer prime > than Dalton thus far.  Maybe a lot of folks thought Carson wasn't as smart because of some of the poor decisions he made with the ball towards the end in Cincy.  I always attributed it to overconfidence.  Before the elbow injury, he COULD zip a ball into those tight windows, he didn't adapt to his physical limitations fast enough.  Hell, sometimes he still does it.  I DO believe Andy is very football smart, kind like of like the way Boomer ran Wyche's offense.  I think we would be better off if we turned him loose a la the Wyche days with a no huddle as our base offense.

Coming back from my tangent there, you are EXACTLY right.  How many careers has S.o.P. stunted?  Think of guys that were fortunate enough to get out of here and go on to bigger and better things.  His first clusterflub was when he canned Sammy, which in turn led to Boomer wanting out.  There is no shortage of players that have sought to get out from under the ineptitude.

(12-01-2016, 02:35 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: My apologies if you felt disrespected by my post. It was not the intent. 

The topic was the NFL not NCAA. Headset technology is not used at the college level. 
The article posted and the subsequent point attempting to be made has zero relevance to the discussion.  

To the second point. I am confident any reasonable person would agree a playbook containing more plays would without a doubt require more time to signal or call-in. There would be two options to eliminate this issue. Simplify the options (shrink the playbook) or develop a faster system to communicate all the options. 

As the QB has more ability to physically and mentally execute a wider variety of options the playbook will expand.  The wristband method is used to combat the time constraints of the play clock. 

As I stated your assertion that Palmer is "not intelligent" and needs a wristband is inaccurate and unfounded. Interestingly enough McNabb is said to have refused to use the wristband because he thought it would "be bad for my image". Meaning that there would be fans who do not understand the value of the wristband playbook and claim him to be less intelligent. A tag that he did not want...especially as it would be applied to a black QB. His thought was simply, why give some people unfounded reason to feel better about their own inadequacies by making inaccurate claims about him.

I do not believe Palmer bashers are trying to make themselves feel better, but more precisely feel better about Dalton.  
Palmer bashing runs rampant here and people grasp at mythical ideas in an effort to reconcile our current circumstances. It seems to stems from the fact that Palmer told son of Paul to kiss his ass. Many fans can't separate that he was not speaking to them, but rather  to the true cause of our angst...son of Paul. 

Not playing for son of Paul and being the QB for our beloved Bengals are NOT mutually exclusive. He could not do one without the other. There is no reasonable football mind who would claim  Andy has any physical skills that make him a better talent than Palmer. Those trying to make a case use intangibles like, "he is a winner", "he a leader", "he is smarter"  or "he has more class" as unprovable reasons to claim why they are better off with Andy as their QB. When a disjointed event occurs, such as wearing a wristband can be spun to give credence to one of the bullshit statements made by some it is seized  upon and spewed like fact. 

Son of Paul will ruin Andy's career. He will most likely go down as "not clutch","can't win a playoff game", or some other BS. Palmer was,and is currently a better QB option than Dalton even at 37...Palmer could not do it here under this owner, neither has Dalton...and I for one do not believe that Brady or any other QB would either. 

With a lack of accountability an organization will never reach it goals. That is true in real life and football too. 

To address the OP's statement...Andy is good, just not really good. 
He can be that without Palmer needing to being a bum, crybaby, quitter, classless, stupid, inadequate etc. See those two things are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. It feels a lot better to support all the Bengal's QB's (past and present) than to be forced into a one or the other camp. The only person who wins in that circumstances is son of Paul...he then is able to avoid his accountability because by the sheer nature of the argument,  fans assign sole accountability to one of these two QB's. 

You raise some points I agree with, but you're also arguing against a lot of stuff that I never said. I've never claimed that Palmer was a quitter. I don't hate the guy at all. Just don't see much difference in the 2 as quality NFL starters. Obviously Palmer had the better arm, but you act as if that's the only aspect of a QB that matters.

Do you think Palmer is a better QB than Brees or Brady? Because Palmer smokes both in the "physical skills" category. I'm not saying Dalton is on the level of those two mentally, I'm just showing how silly it is to judge a QB by physical skills (arm) only. 

What I've gathered from your post is that you seem to think Palmer's game lacks holes (I'm probably wrong about that, but that's how it comes off). Here's the negatives from Palmers scouting report heading into the 2003 draft:

http://www.scout.com/nfl/story/64115-scouting-report-carson-palmer

"The Bad: Senses pressure and works to avoid the rush but has great difficulty.  Terrible sense of timing; late releasing the outs, not always on the same page as his receivers and pass catchers are usually adjusting or contorting backwards to make the grab.  Makes questionable decisions and does not give you the sense he's making the correct reads or is in complete control of the offense."

This pretty much is lock step with what I've been saying. Dalton has a mastery of the offense that Palmer has seemingly lacked through his career. Don't spin this as me thinking Palmer is a bad QB, or that Dalton is better. Dalton has his own flaws. Actually I think CP was/is a very good QB. Sometimes bordered on elite in the proper circumstances, which he hasn't had much through his career.

I feel the exact same way about Dalton. Over their careers, they've produced similar numbers. In this current era, it's been nearly identical. Since 2012 (I exclude 2011 because Dalton was a rookie, and Palmer had a rough transition in Oakland), Palmer has a 90.1 passer rating. Dalton is at 90.4. Both have been very efficient and led winning teams.

I agree with everything you say about Mikey ruining Palmer's career and probably ruining Dalton's. Just disagree on how close the 2 were/are as NFL QBs (not on which one can throw a prettier 60 yard pass). Fwiw, even though Palmer has a superior arm, that arm has proven to be a double edged sword. Just as Dalton's lack of a cannon gets him in trouble at times, Palmer has been far too confident at times, leading to many of his INTs. Well that, and the miscommunication problems with WRs that have followed him to every stop.

I still feel Palmer was easily good enough to lead a team to numerous playoff wins though. Maybe even a championship. Just not with the flawed coaching and management he had in Cincy. 

It happens though doesn't it you have QBs that are/were good who end there careers being remembered as never having made the playoffs/superbowl or won in them. Or not winning them as much as they should have.

It's before my time but wasn't Archie Manning meant to be good but play for some awful teams during his time at the Saints?

I guess what I'm trying to get at here is not every sports man can win so some, sometimes even the best ones around, don't get the victory medal that year. (This isn't me claiming Dalton is #1 by the way - though I am a fan). All fans can do is hope that the team is going to make sure that the best supporting cast (players and coaches) are around its key pieces and that they can all work together to make that run to succeed.

And I do think Brown wants to win. He obviously hasn't got that down yet, but I also want to win the lottery and haven't got that one covered yet either. But I don't think he doesn't want to win, if it was just about money only I can't see how he wouldn't have either (a) moved the franchise to a bigger revenue area or (b) sold it. I just think he hasn't got it right yet and that is mighty frustrating for all of us.