(12-01-2016, 05:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't blame people for being negative.  I just blame the ones who say things like "The Bengals don't want to win" or "I am superior to any fan that still goes to a game" or "Anyone who is still a Bengal fan is the same as an abused woman".

It is possible to be negative without being stupid.

I want to be very clear that I believe that MB likes to win.  I also do not believe that he likes to loose.  I believe he is just not willing to make all the moves that he could in order to provide/show winning is the only acceptable outcome and mold that into the culture of Bengal football (See the Pats).  It's more like, it would be cool to win, a practice bubble might be nice if you are in high school, maybe in the future we can honor some players online, but if we don't there is always next year.

Not much inspiration flowing from the top.

(12-01-2016, 05:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't blame people for being negative.  I just blame the ones who say things like 1. "The Bengals don't want to win" or 2. I am superior to any fan that still goes to a game" or 3. "Anyone who is still a Bengal fan is the same as an abused woman".

It is possible to be negative without being stupid.

1. Of course Mike Brown wants to win. He just doesn't make winning his #1 priority in everything he does. I think this is what people really mean when they say "he doesn't care about winning". 

2. Not many people say that, but yeah the one's who do are being silly and emotional.

3. Haven't seen that comparison much lately, but I always thought it was kinda funny. You're just way too tense and you're (by you're own admission) usually looking for an argument. We are a hard luck fan base. Being a Bengals fan over the last 20 years has been rough, but we keep coming back for more like we have battered woman syndrome. You don't get that comparison? OK.

_____________

Can you name some forms of negativity or criticism you're okay with? I very seldomly see you posting anything negative, and spotting a post from you agreeing with a negative take is like spotting bigfoot. 

Fwiw, I don't get why you crusade so much against negativity. It isn't going to change the boards. It's a good way to harvest some arguments though. Personally, I've always had a live and let live attitude towards positivity/negativity. What we're doing right now is no fun to read and not healthy for the boards.

You may feel that way about all the negativity, but not everyone agrees with you. Especially not at the moment. 

(12-01-2016, 05:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is not impossible at all. Not even close. There are NINE different teams who have not won a playoff game since the Bengals began their 7 game playoff losing streak.  And there are 4 teams that have not even made the playoffs during that span.  You simply do not understand how the rest of the NFL works.

Let me ask you this.  Do you think Paul Brown "cared about winning" when he was our head coach?

What is the statistical probability of an NFL team going to the playoffs 7 times in a short span and loosing every game?

If you are going to throw Paul Browns record at me and ask if he cared about winning then you did not read anything I wrote.  Your win/loss record does not directly correlate to whether you care about winning or not.  I specifically said in another thread that I would not be upset with down years (every NFL team has them) if it appeared the Browns were doing everything they could to build a winning team and a winning culture in Bengaldom.  Read my previous posts to see why I do not believe they are and that is the difference.  I do not know why that is so hard for you to understand? 

(12-01-2016, 05:49 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Can you name some forms of negativity or criticism you're okay with? I very seldomly see you posting anything negative, and spotting a post from you agreeing with a negative take is like spotting bigfoot. 

Its not about that Shake, Fred is the classic poster that wants to go against whatever anyone says and twist it in his own wording "thinking" he's being clever. I guarantee you if everyone on this board was drinking kool aid and defending everything Bengals you would have him posting the opposite to ruffle feathers. It's predictable...

(12-01-2016, 01:38 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I have no problem with threads that comment about what is wrong and what could be done to fix them.  But just constantly crying about how everything is hopeless over and over and over again gets old really fast.

Well you can have a room full of genius' giving their suggestions on what could fix the Bengals and you continue to see the Bengals do the same things over and over, then you'll see those same people pissed that nothing does change. And that is the key of what gets old fast.

(12-01-2016, 05:08 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We're in the midst of a massively disappointing season. I imagine Panthers and Cardinals message boards are also full of negativity as well, and they're coming off of better seasons and have more promising situations with coaches and management. So of course there's going to be an overwhelming amount of negativity here. The boards just reflect reality.

People are fed up. I try to be positive myself. I was pretty much the only.one who predicted a win over the Ravens last week. There's just not much positive to discuss at the moment. Even the draft is viewed negatively now because we've whiffed a lot recently.

If you or Fred have any ideas, I'd love to hear it. I'm not even trying to knock you guys. I'm just saying...it is what it is right now.

It reflects reality to a certain degree. People are too emotional right now to be logical and the skews peoples reality.  I hope people don't truly believe we should consider shopping AJ Green. I'd feel the same about the Cardinals or the Panthers fans losing it over one season. The need to get a grip and realize the NFL is an up and down business for all franchises not located in New England and one down season doesn't mean the franchise has fallen back into the 90s.

Too many people are speaking only in extremes and say things like they want to blow up the team despite being a year removed from one of the best seasons we've had in a while. Obviously changes need to be made but acting like there is no chance we will win, no coach will want to coach here and our roster is full losers is hard for me to respect because I can only assume that isn't a thought that is based off of football knowledge it's just emotion for the sake of emotion. Which isn't promoting discussion and is hogging up all the air.

There's a lot to be negative about and rightfully so but I lose patience with people who want to make a new thread every time they think they have the latest and greatest Marvin joke or put down and contribute nothing to other threads trying to discuss what actually needs to be changed other then one-liners about how the team sucks. A portion of them are the same people who go out of there way to moan about something when things are going well.

(12-01-2016, 06:20 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: It reflects reality to a certain degree. People are too emotional right now to be logical and the skews peoples reality.  I hope people don't truly believe we should consider shopping AJ Green. I'd feel the same about the Cardinals or the Panthers fans losing it over one season. The need to get a grip and realize the NFL is an up and down business for all franchises not located in New England and one down season doesn't mean the franchise has fallen back into the 90s.

Too many people are speaking only in extremes and say things like they want to blow up the team despite being a year removed from one of the best seasons we've had in a while. Obviously changes need to be made but acting like there is no chance we will win, no coach will want to coach here and our roster is full losers is hard for me to respect because I can only assume that isn't a thought that is based off of football knowledge it's just emotion for the sake of emotion. Which isn't promoting discussion.

There's a lot to be negative about and rightfully so but I lose patience with people who want to make a new thread every time they think they have the latest and greatest Marvin joke or put down and contribute nothing to other threads trying to discuss what actually needs to be changed other then one-liners about how the team sucks. A portion of them are the same people who go out of there way to moan about something when things are going well.

There are always going to be extreme opinions based on emotion and frustration (obviously trading AJ Green would be an example...If the person was being serious), but I think most people are pretty reasonable. Even blowing up the team seems like a realistic idea, unfortunately. We've already lost a lot of good players, and guys like Whit, Peko, Mauluga, Pacman, MJ, etc are either washed up or getting there. I could also see a quick rebound with the right FA/draft and coaching moves, but both are realistic possibilities.

I understand your frustration with the boards right now, but I also understand why so many are frustrated with the FO and team in general. We just have to hope the team provides us with better things to talk about this offseason and on into next season.

(12-01-2016, 06:39 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: There are always going to be extreme opinions based on emotion and frustration (obviously trading AJ Green would be an example...If the person was being serious), but I think most people are pretty reasonable. Even blowing up the team seems like a realistic idea, unfortunately. We've already lost a lot of good players, and guys like Whit, Peko, Mauluga, Pacman, MJ, etc are either washed up or getting there. I could also see a quick rebound with the right FA/draft and coaching moves, but both are realistic possibilities.

I understand your frustration with the boards right now, but I also understand why so many are frustrated with the FO and team in general. We just have to hope the team provides us with better things to talk about this offseason and on into next season.

I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. I've heard Daltons name get tossed around for trade I think that would be a massive mistake. A big problem right now when people are trying to decide what should be changed is the team has a whole bunch of drafted players that we know next to nothing about because Marvin won't give them a serious chance. We could need to blow up the team or simply give guys like Dennard a chance while adding some additions through the off-season. That's the frustrating part for me. We still won't have any idea probably by the time the season is over.

(12-01-2016, 06:55 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. I've heard Daltons name get tossed around for trade I think that would be a massive mistake. A big problem right now when people are trying to decide what should be changed is the team has a whole bunch of drafted players that we know next to nothing about because Marvin won't give them a serious chance. We could need to blow up the team or simply give guys like Dennard a chance while adding some additions through the off-season. That's the frustrating part for me. We still won't have any idea probably by the time the season is over.

Good point. Marv needs to forget the playoffs and start throwing some young guys out there for experience. That said, maybe Marv is trying to protect his job.

(12-01-2016, 05:55 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: If you are going to throw Paul Browns record at me and ask if he cared about winning then you did not read anything I wrote.  Your win/loss record does not directly correlate to whether you care about winning or not.  I specifically said in another thread that I would not be upset with down years (every NFL team has them) if it appeared the Browns were doing everything they could to build a winning team and a winning culture in Bengaldom.  Read my previous posts to see why I do not believe they are and that is the difference.  I do not know why that is so hard for you to understand? 

But if lack of Hall of Fame players and top practice facilities proves that the current regime does not care about winning then the same goes for Paul Brown.

Plus Paul Brown never won a playoff game with the Bengals either.

So what is so hard for me to understand is how the things you claim proves the Bengals don't care about winning also apply to the Paul Brown era.

(12-01-2016, 06:01 PM)GodFather Wrote: Well you can have a room full of genius' giving their suggestions on what could fix the Bengals and you continue to see the Bengals do the same things over and over, then you'll see those same people pissed that nothing does change. And that is the key of what gets old fast.

Except things change all the time.  We have changed coordinators every other year.  Last year we changed a majrity of our position coaches as well.  And we get different players every year.

The results also change.  Last year we finished a 5 year streak where the Bengals won more consistently than they have at any time in their entire existence.

So the people who claim nothing ever changes don't really know what they are talking about.

(12-01-2016, 05:55 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: What is the statistical probability of an NFL team going to the playoffs 7 times in a short span and loosing every game?

I don't know.  But whatever it is it disproves your claim of "complete ineptitude".

Teams that are inept do not make the playoffs so consistently.

(12-01-2016, 07:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But if lack of Hall of Fame players and top practice facilities proves that the current regime does not care about winning then the same goes for Paul Brown.

Plus Paul Brown never won a playoff game with the Bengals either.

So what is so hard for me to understand is how the things you claim proves the Bengals don't care about winning also apply to the Paul Brown era.

(12-01-2016, 08:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know.  But whatever it is it disproves your claim of "complete ineptitude".

Teams that are inept do not make the playoffs so consistently.

Not going to argue with you.  I nicely told you what I thought/believe and tried to explain why I think/believe it.  I stick by my comments and it is what I believe to be true.

I am not sure how common it was in the PB era to have top indoor practice facilities for northern/cold teams, but if it was common practice then yes, PB did not do everything he could to provide his players with the best chance of winning.

(12-01-2016, 08:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Except things change all the time.  We have changed coordinators every other year.  Last year we changed a majrity of our position coaches as well.  And we get different players every year.

The results also change.  Last year we finished a 5 year streak where the Bengals won more consistently than they have at any time in their entire existence.

So the people who claim nothing ever changes don't really know what they are talking about.

The difference is those changes aren't on the Bengals accord. They don't make the necessary changes to become a championship team. All those OC/DC changes were because those coaches decided to leave.(not that I would've wanted them gone) 

For example, Nugent? He's still kicking and missing kicks this year and any other team would've made a change. Does Cincy? Nope. No other team would ever keep a HC who lost 7 playoff games and not win one. Does Cincy? Nope. We could go on and on all damn day long with the "lack" of changes this front office needs to make in order to be a contender but theres not enough hours in the day.

So do things change? Of course they do, its life...something always changes. But the real thing is are there changes that is going to put the team in a serious position to go all the way? Not on your life.

(12-01-2016, 07:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But if lack of Hall of Fame players and top practice facilities proves that the current regime does not care about winning then the same goes for Paul Brown.

Plus Paul Brown never won a playoff game with the Bengals either.

So what is so hard for me to understand is how the things you claim proves the Bengals don't care about winning also apply to the Paul Brown era.

....except that when Paul was GM, we went to 2 Super Bowls in 7 years.

(12-01-2016, 10:27 PM)GodFather Wrote: The difference is those changes aren't on the Bengals accord. They don't make the necessary changes to become a championship team. All those OC/DC changes were because those coaches decided to leave.(not that I would've wanted them gone) 

For example, Nugent? He's still kicking and missing kicks this year and any other team would've made a change. Does Cincy? Nope. No other team would ever keep a HC who lost 7 playoff games and not win one. Does Cincy? Nope. We could go on and on all damn day long with the "lack" of changes this front office needs to make in order to be a contender but theres not enough hours in the day.

So do things change? Of course they do, its life...something always changes. But the real thing is are there changes that is going to put the team in a serious position to go all the way? Not on your life.

Beat me to it.  Hayes left on his own accord too, didn't he?  Vance Joseph?  Hey, maybe we'll get lucky and someone will come with a good offer for Piano Man this offseason.  Oh.........wait........

(12-01-2016, 10:27 PM)GodFather Wrote: The difference is those changes aren't on the Bengals accord. They don't make the necessary changes to become a championship team. All those OC/DC changes were because those coaches decided to leave

No they were not.  Bresnehan, Bratkowski, and Fitzgerald were all forced out.


The only thing that never changes is your delusions.

Dddaaaaaaaaayyyyyuuuuummmmmm!!!!!! Ol freddy got the ban hammer?