I sound like a recording saying this but no we don't need to blow it up, we need to blow out Marvin Lewis. We have some very talented players and with the right coach this ship will be steered in the right direction immediately.

I will go as far to say we could have the same roster of players from teams who have won Super bowls in the past and with Marvin at HC they would've gone nowhere. The shit trickles down..


We will have a good draft position next year, a new coach and happy days will be here again*



*but we know that won't happen

(12-01-2016, 10:06 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Meh, kind of tough to go with that logic.  It's not like they were blowing everyone out, last year.

Well he did say we needed a new coach, I presume he meant one with a big ol sack of nuts which may lead to more lopsided scores in our favor.

I think we can rebound in one year with the right moves. If we miss, we could be looking at a 3-4 year rebuild.

We absolutely have to hit a HR with our Top 10 draft pick. I'd say that William Jackson needs to be a player also.

We also need to sign a couple impact free agents. Retain guys like Whitworth, Kirkpatrick, and Zeitler.

Things like that and we can rebound.

Mostly the OC and the o-line.

I've seen enough of Zampese. There was no legit reason for this hire in the first place.

Paul Alexander and his picks have hindered this team and it's fully floating to the surface.

Spare me the PFF stats on this subject. The team has not given Dalton enough time or consistently blocked for the run.

If this team makes some good hire moves in these areas and actually leans on decent FAs they could be back in business with added draft picks.

The D needs to reorder the depth chart make cuts and let Guenther make decisions without Marvin's thumb in the way.

Really the following year would be the year to "blow up".

If Marv isn't extended and his contract is up. Then make major changes. Both coaching & players.

Might as well throw in some reality in these thoughts after all. LOL

(12-01-2016, 11:03 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think we can rebound in one year with the right moves. If we miss, we could be looking at a 3-4 year rebuild.

We absolutely have to hit a HR with our Top 10 draft pick. I'd say that William Jackson needs to be a player also.

We also need to sign a couple impact free agents. Retain guys like Whitworth, Kirkpatrick, and Zeitler.

Things like that and we can rebound.

A lot of us are forgetting we have WJ3 and Billings. I don't blame them though because Marvin likes to sit defensive newbs just long enough for them to forget how to play football. Unless of coarse he absolutely needs the position. In that case 9/10 he can't get them coached up which is odd considering his MO was defense.

 Meanwhile on offense you have Dalton, Green, Eifert, Zeitler, Gio, Hill, Boyd, OG, all thrown to the wolves.

(12-01-2016, 09:20 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm just glad we aren't one of the 20+ fanbases that want to toss our QB in the trash so we can "Get our Dak Prescott" in the 4th this year.

Yeah. We are just the one fan base that believes everybody wants our backup QB.

The whole offensive line needs to be rebuilt and the entire defense needs to be looked at.

Our offensive line and kicker have combined to lose us most of our games.

At the risk of this slighty sounding like hyperbole.

Do we really want to start acting more like the Browns? Do we really need to blow the whole thing up and start again?

I don't think anyone of us could defend this season as a success or say we don't need to improve but when during the last how many years has the blow it up and rebuild project worked for Cleveland?

Now I know as I said this is a bit OTT we're not the same sides and so on.....but I'm not sure we need to start from scratch here.

Just my humble opinion.

I think the core of a very good team is already here. I would have no intention of blowing it up. However, the current coaching staff has been tuned out to the point where they are not getting the maximum out of their talent. Not even close.

I would say that an infusion of youth (and talent) at the RDE position and LB position combined with a more in-the-box utilization of our safeties and man coverage with our CBs (Hell, you use first rounders every time on them for a reason) would help this team become what it once was....a Top 5 defense.

The offense needs that other vertical weapon to help free up the underneath, and I think Terrelle Pryor is a PERFECT fit for that. Draft a Center, a RB, another Guard, and keep Whit at least one more year at LT before moving him to G, and with a bit more creativity on offense (move the (&%^$# pocket so Dalton isn't a sitting duck) and they can be very, very good. They are only really missing a couple pieces here. I would look at Westerman at G before the season is over to evaluate him as a possible Zeitler replacement. I don't see him being retained.

(12-02-2016, 07:48 AM)Southendbengal Wrote: At the risk of this slighty sounding like hyperbole.

Do we really want to start acting more like the Browns? Do we really need to blow the whole thing up and start again?

I don't think anyone of us could defend this season as a success or say we don't need to improve but when during the last how many years has the blow it up and rebuild project worked for Cleveland?

Now I know as I said this is a bit OTT we're not the same sides and so on.....but I'm not sure we need to start from scratch here.

Just my humble opinion.

Okay.  Maybe not a complete blow up.

I think it's safe to say that the majority are thinking of mostly coaches.

If Marvin leaves.  You'd hope that for the most part the new HC could overhaul the staff from top to bottom.  Wishful thinking of course.

Retain your core reliable players though. Dalton/Green/Eifert/Atkins/Dunlap and a few others for example.

The rest probably would be fair game for cut/no extension/trade.

There may be a few posters who want to decimate the current roster but I believe the majority see it in this perspective.

Without the NFL forcing the sale of the team for relocation purposes, this team is going to do all the blowing themselves. Even if the crusty one finally croaks and runs the lumina off river road, we still have a tight ass ***** who knows nothing but hand me downs and Marvin extensions.

Here is what you got to remember. No one replaces a bunch of people in a single year and are competitive right away, it's just not a thing. You want to keep the roster as close to as intact as you can while fixing the things you can. There are a finite amount of draft picks you could expect to start next year (even if our coach isn't Lewis), so the idea we can draft 5+ rookies to "fix" things right now isn't realistic. Everyone can point to FA, and we should look, but your not going to bring in a ton of guys that are going to fix things in a salary cap era. The realistic possibility is 1 or 2 may be able to come in and help. so with that all said...

Resigns:

• You have to keep Whitworth, but where he plays is anyone's guess. He said he is open to moving inside if need be so it gives us flexibility.
• LaFell should be retained at a similar contract (2.5 Million). He has been a good value and for those complaining about lack of depth behind AJ for that kind of money he can provide depth/spot start and help going forward.
• Kirpatrick is kept because I make another move later in the post. The guy has played well enough to be paid like an average NFL starting CB. In a league where even serviceable CBs are hard to come by he can get the job done.
  

Let Walk:

• Zeitler has had an up and down year, and to be fair this may be due to being sandwiched between two bad pieces. Either way, I don't think we pay two guards big money and I believe the pick of Westerman last year signaled the end for Zeitler. Similar to Kirkpatrick if the deal is right take it, but I don't see it being "team friendly"
• Billings is the answer to Peko. If your not comfortable with going in with Billings you still have Sims on a team friendly deal and you could bring Thompson back on one as well.  I am not one of those guys who hate on Peko, but his time here has run it's course.
• Dansby has not worked out like each of the last couple older LBs we have brought in to try and fill that last LB role. He is probably heading out to pasture after this season anyways.
  

Cuts:

• Rey Mauluga had a bit of a resurgence to his career here, but at this point he is a one or two down linebacker. I believe Vigil was drafted to be his heir and the coaches were high on him during camp. We may look back to the draft, but I believe it is Vigil who will get the call next season.
• Pacman is probably going to get cut and it isn't even as much about his play but his contract. He is a 7.6 million cap hit next year, but would only be 1.3 million in dead money. I think at some point we have to let some of these young guys play and if I had to choose between Pacman and Kirkpatrick right now I am going with Kirkpatrick. Cut Pacman and give Kirkpatrick a deal slightly below this.
  

The "others"

• Michael Johnson is not as bad as people like to think. He has strung together a couple good games lately and isn't a huge liability in the run game. If the plan is to let Hunt walk and draft a rookie you will want to keep Johnson one more year as a veteran presence. After next year his dead money is minimal, so it makes sense he stays one more year.
• Russell Bodine will be kept, that is just the way it is. He is on a cheap contract and at worst he will compete with someone. His contract expires after next season at which point they should let him walk assuming we got his replacement next season.
  

FA:

• We need a veteran tackle. This years draft class is week at the top end outside of Cam Robinson and I don't want to go in banking on that or what we have. Get a veteran tackle similar to Winston (hopefully a little better) and keep him as a back up incase what we has does not develop as needed.
• If we part with Peko and don't retain THompson we may need to at a DT. I could see them letting Sims walk due to his injury history so a veteran NT to once again hedge ourselves in case Billings doesn't work out may be a good move.
• I am not as worried about a veteran WR. The WR FA tend to be the most likely FA to flame out many come in and are decent but many flame out. I think LaFell type production is about the best your going to get unless you want to spend a lot of money, and I don't think this team looking ahead can afford to pay a second WR 7/8+ million a year especially at a position where scheme is a big deal when looking at production.
  

Draft

• The draft as mentioned is not deep at top end lineman. If we are a top 10 or even top 5 pick we need to grab a difference maker and that isn't a Tackle in this years class. 
• This class is a very good pass rushing class and I'd look to accomplish this in the first or second round. The thing is in the early second we still may have an option at a 1st round talent as far as pass rusher goes.
• If by chance we end up in the top 5 we could look to Peppers from Michigan to provide us a LB/S hybrid similar to Keanu Neal last year and Deone Buchannon in a more proven example.
• As much as I'd like to see it, I am not sure Mike WIlliams from Clemson is in play. The guy is in the class of a AJ, Julio, Amari Cooper in that he will be a high top 10 pick, but I can't see us taking a WR that high. If we were to want to consider a WR though the second round is full of guys that could be legit deep threats. I like Darboh from Michigan as a bit of an undervalued (as of now ) prospect in the 2/3 round.
• This center class has a lot of value in the 2nd and 3rd round. We could find a good replacement here, and kind of anecdotally, the 2nd round is historically the best round to draft a center.
• The 3rd and 4th round would be a great place to grab a HB if your not convinced you are resigning Hill next year and knowing Gio is out possibly to start the year. Nick Chub, Corey Clement,James Connor are all good options here. If you get lucky you could grab D'Onta Foreman or Samaje Perine at the top of the 3rd and have a star in the making.
• Once we hit the 4th and 5th round you enter a bit of an unknown. This is going to be heavily dependent on what we do in FA and who we keep and cut
  

So to make a long answer short, we don't need to rip it all down simply add a couple guys here and there. The key is to replace things slowly and do the best you can to minimize damage from your weaknesses. All teams have weaknesses and your never going to fix them all in one season.

I don't know. This team has huge talent gaps on both sides of the lines. They need a rush end, a run stuffing tackle, a right guard, a right tackle, a center, and maybe even a left tackle if Whit leaves or retires. On top of that, they need younger, more athletic linebackers and a ballhawking safety. A speed receiver wouldn't hurt, either and our best running back may or may not be ready to start the year.

That's a hell of a lot of needs to fill for a team that generally shits it's pants over the concept of signing outside free agents. If they're going to succeed in 17, they'd better man up in this facet of team building.

I think the best we can realistically hope for is to get some pieces early in the draft, get a new, fresh staff and let them gel next year. With luck and chemistry, things will come together by 2018 when the new system is ingrained.

The thing is that a good draft and an aggressive free agency is just the thing that could turn it around and have us back in it next year. Bad thing is that we might draft good, but Mike isn't going to do jack shit in free agency.

(12-02-2016, 09:42 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Okay.  Maybe not a complete blow up.

I think it's safe to say that the majority are thinking of mostly coaches.

If Marvin leaves.  You'd hope that for the most part the new HC could overhaul the staff from top to bottom.  Wishful thinking of course.

Retain your core reliable players though. Dalton/Green/Eifert/Atkins/Dunlap and a few others for example.

The rest probably would be fair game for cut/no extension/trade.

There may be a few posters who want to decimate the current roster but I believe the majority see it in this perspective.

What are they all Randy Lerner & Jimmy Haslam ?!?!?!?!?!?

All jokes aside though, yes something/s haven't worked this year and we need to make some changes to rectify this. I'm no expert so there is no point in me sitting here saying this, this and this will work, I just hope that Mike, Marvin, Duke, Katie everyone else in the management meetings have started on the plan for next year. Because this years I'm afraid didn't work.

But that is the plus side to sports it's not like this was the last season ever so we get to try again. Wait....hang on....is that a good thing???

I saw it commented that Mike Williams is in the elite class of WR prospects, but didn't see the Bengals taking a WR in the top 10.

AJ Green was the 4th overall pick in the 2011 draft.

(12-02-2016, 11:17 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I saw it commented that Mike Williams is in the elite class of WR prospects, but didn't see the Bengals taking a WR in the top 10.

AJ Green was the 4th overall pick in the 2011 draft.

We did do it with AJ, I'm not sure we would do it again except when Williams 5th year option was up AJ would be done with this contract so financially you wouldn't be paying two big name WR's. Honestly that's what I want to take pressure of AJ and let Boyd work in the slot.

(12-02-2016, 11:20 AM)Au165 Wrote: We did do it with AJ, I'm not sure we would do it again except when Williams 5th year option was up AJ would be done with this contract so financially you wouldn't be paying two big name WR's. Honestly that's what I want to take pressure of AJ and let Boyd work in the slot.

Funny thing is, I don't normally get hyped about taking WR in the 1st round.  I was thrilled with AJ, as I was sure that he was going to be the real deal.  In fact, I really didn't buy completely into the Mike Williams hype, until recently.  He is on an offense with so many weapons, that I feel like some of his stats are by simply not enough defenders to double him.  However, when I saw him catch a ball, spin around 360 to try to shake him, when that didn't work, he proceeded to just explode to the endzone with the player still on his back.  That dude won't get boxed out on many jump balls by NFL CBs and Safeties.

Mike Williams will be red zone Gold, for many years.

I go back to all the articles that have been written over the last two years that talked about the Bengals' window "closing" and how many on this board talked about that being nonsense and how the media either knows nothing about the team or has a grudge against them. You look at it now and it seems some of those writers may have known what they were talking about. Going back to the middle of last season, this team is 7-11-1. Even the final four games with Andy last year, they were 2-2.

I don't think this is going to be a quick rebound. I think there is a more than decent chance that both Zeitler and Kirkpatrick walk after this season. If Whitworth decides to come back, he is going to be 35 years old and you have to wonder when he play starts to fall off. Gio will be coming off a major knee injury and Hill appears to be an anomaly. It appears the organization missed on both Ogbuehi and Fisher (we have not seen much of Fisher, but you would think he would be playing if he were better than either Ced or Winston), so you have an offensive line with at least three holes. Pacman seems to have lost a couple steps this year (age), Dennard looks lost much of the time, Ioloka does not look like the same guy without Nelson, and Williams does not look like a full time NFL starter. The linebackers all look slow and none of them are good in coverage. Peko and Michael Johnson are at the very tail end of their careers.

So basically we have Andy, AJ, Eifert (free agent after next year), plus some young wide receivers that we hope are going to pan out (Boyd looks like he'll be ok). On defense we have Geno and Dunlap, and have to hope that Burfict decides to get in shape before next season and learns to behave (he is a free agent after next year).

This team has a lot of holes to fill, and it is not going to be done through one draft. I said it in another thread, I really think this team is in a down cycle. The truly scary part is that if it takes three years to start filling some of these holes, then guys like Geno, Andy, and AJ are in their early 30's and you have to worry about them starting to fall off. Free agency could really help, but we all know that's not going to happen...

This year is simply a combination of a lot of things. Missing on high draft picks the last few years, having an inept kicker, being outcoached finally caught up with us, and injuries have been pretty crucial as well. But also remember that this is a 5-year playoff team with a nice core of players who are in their primes.

I think this year has exposed the coaches and players that do need to go. But I think all can be easily replaced and we can return to prominence next season.

Replacing the kicker goes a long way. Nugent has arguably cost us 2 wins this year alone. I think McDaniels replacing Marvin will help drastically too.

I think we use our top 10 pick on a DL. Others have said using the pick on OL or playmakers like a WR or Peppers from Michigan, but I think DL is the safest pick. There are plenty of quality OL in recent drafts. Right now, Peko and MJ need to go. A DL like Allen, Barnett, or Garrett could go a long way in keeping our CBs and LBs from being exposed week in and week out.

Our second and third round picks can be used to address the OL (preferably a C) and LB. I would go with the LSU C in the 2nd if he is still there. I think we could get a solid LB in the 3rd and rely on a revamped DL to help alleviate the weakness at LB another year.

Other holes can be filled from decent FA signings. Robert Mathis and Anquan Boldin come to mind as decent signings who can both play and mentor the youngsters.

Overall, I think these changes will get us back to the playoffs next year barring any major injuries.