(12-01-2016, 07:24 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: I'm not excusing anything! Based on what McCarron showed and among other things, his ability to hold his bearings, the way the team rallied around him... I'm satisfied with giving him more opportunities to further develop his talent.  
In regards to Arians giving Palmer a good game plan...I agree with you.
Look, it goes w/out saying that every player is better with good coaching...not just Andy! I'm not defending ML.
 I think our main disagreement is you seem to think a QB should not be judged unless all the pieces are in place for him. Like a good HC, OL, RB's, WR's and a good defense. That's bull manure!

Take a look at the bottom ranked QB's for this season. Which of them have all of the pieces in place? None of them! And IMO it's the main reason for their low ranking. But they still get judged /critiqued by fans and the media don't they? 
Your boy Andy is headed towards the bottom in ranking, but it's his HC's fault?  Ok, but could you please up date his current passer rating and wins and loses? As you know, it's at the bottom of all of your post.

What did McCarron show in those games? He never lead the team to more than 24 points in a game and the team had 8 (out of 12) games that season scoring over 30 points. Under McCarron the offense averaged 300 total yards a game, and that would be one of the worst total yard average in the league if averaged over the whole year. McCarron beat the horrible Ravens who had a backup QB off of the street and the 49ers who had a backup in also. Lol it's so funny people think McCarron showed anything while he was in. All he showed is that he's a backup quality QB that can squeak out a win against the worst teams in the NFL with the rest of the team playing like a Superbowl caliber team.

(12-01-2016, 11:01 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: G
What did McCarron show in those games? He never lead the team to more than 24 points in a game and the team had 8 games that season scoring over 30 points. Under McCarron the offense averaged 300 total yards a game, and that would be one of the worst total yard average in the league if averaged over the whole year. McCarron beat the horrible Ravens who had a backup QB off of the street and the 49ers who had a backup in also. Lol it's so funny people think McCarron showed anything while he was in. All he showed is that he's a backup quality QB that can squeak out a win against the worst teams in the NFL with the rest of the team playing like a Superbowl caliber team.

You're pointing out short comings that almost all 1st time NFL starting QB's, coming of the bench with little time working with the staters have. There's no substitute for playing time. 
Look at the intangibles of McCarron. He just seems to be a better leader.
I don't wish harm to Andy, but if he goes down again it will be interesting to see how much further McCarron's talent has developed. 

(12-01-2016, 07:24 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: I'm not excusing anything! Based on what McCarron showed and among other things, his ability to hold his bearings, the way the team rallied around him... I'm satisfied with giving him more opportunities to further develop his talent.  
In regards to Arians giving Palmer a good game plan...I agree with you.
Look, it goes w/out saying that every player is better with good coaching...not just Andy! I'm not defending ML.
 I think our main disagreement is you seem to think a QB should not be judged unless all the pieces are in place for him. Like a good HC, OL, RB's, WR's and a good defense. That's bull manure!

Take a look at the bottom ranked QB's for this season. Which of them have all of the pieces in place? None of them! And IMO it's the main reason for their low ranking. But they still get judged /critiqued by fans and the media don't they? 
Your boy Andy is headed towards the bottom in ranking, but it's his HC's fault?  Ok, but could you please up date his current passer rating and wins and loses? As you know, it's at the bottom of all of your post.

1. I never said Dalton's situation had to be perfect.

2. Not sure why you bring up "bottom ranked QBs" when Dalton is nowhere near the bottom. That alone proves he's a good QB IMO. Even with poor coaching, a horrendous o-line and no help from the run game, he's still having a solid season.

3. I keep the sig up to date. 

(12-02-2016, 12:13 AM)Hammerthis Wrote: You're pointing out short comings that almost all 1st time NFL starting QB's, coming of the bench with little time working with the staters have. There's no substitute for playing time. 
Look at the intangibles of McCarron. He just seems to be a better leader.
I don't wish harm to Andy, but if he goes down again it will be interesting to see how much further McCarron's talent has developed. 

What does McCarron have? He wasn't leader. What made you think he was a leader in the team? Because he was a QB who made the offense look bad? I didn't see anything from McCarron other than mostly dink and dunk. He had horrible pocket awareness and he couldn't read the defense very well. He made the offense very limited even though he almost had 2 years to learn the playbook. A lot of the points we scored was because the defense put the offense in scoring position. McCarron has only shown that he's a mediocre backup QB. I doubt he will ever be a starting QB, unless he's a stop gap like Gabbert.

(12-02-2016, 12:32 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. I never said Dalton's situation had to be perfect.

2. Not sure why you bring up "bottom ranked QBs" when Dalton is nowhere near the bottom. That alone proves he's a good QB IMO. Even with poor coaching, a horrendous o-line and no help from the run game, he's still having a solid season.

3. I keep the sig up to date. 

Like so many here, you insinuate that Andy's imperfections are due to his surroundings and when he performes flawlessly it's due to his ability. 
Poor coaching can effect a lot things, but I'm not sure if it can cause a veteran, 2xPB QB to consistently fumble, pass over WRs heads and etc.

I do respect Andy, and in fact,  I'm a firm believer that he can win a SB with the RIGHT TEAM! But so can all of the other starting QB's in the NFL. The bengals imo are not a good fit for Andy...we're not dominate enough.

I mentioned the lower ranking QB's because of two things. 1. I asked if you could find one that had everything a QB could ask for including a good HC. Think about it, maybe you will think a little differently about QB rankings and stats
2. Because near the bottom is where I'm predicting Andy will end this season at. 

(12-02-2016, 11:05 AM)Hammerthis Wrote: Like so many here, you insinuate that Andy's imperfections are due to his surroundings and when he performes flawlessly it's due to his ability. 
Poor coaching can effect a lot things, but I'm not sure if it can cause a veteran, 2xPB QB to consistently fumble, pass over WRs heads and etc.

I do respect Andy, and in fact,  I'm a firm believer that he can win a SB with the RIGHT TEAM! But so can all of the other starting QB's in the NFL. The bengals imo are not a good fit for Andy...we're not dominate enough.

I mentioned the lower ranking QB's because of two things. 1. I asked if you could find one that had everything a QB could ask for including a good HC. Think about it, maybe you will think a little differently about QB rankings and stats
2. Because near the bottom is where I'm predicting Andy will end this season at. 

Define "near the bottom".

Also there's like 5 games left. You honestly expect Dalton to basically play the worst stretch of football of his career?

(12-02-2016, 11:05 AM)Hammerthis Wrote: Like so many here, you insinuate that Andy's imperfections are due to his surroundings and when he performes flawlessly it's due to his ability. 
Poor coaching can effect a lot things, but I'm not sure if it can cause a veteran, 2xPB QB to consistently fumble, pass over WRs heads and etc.

I do respect Andy, and in fact,  I'm a firm believer that he can win a SB with the RIGHT TEAM! But so can all of the other starting QB's in the NFL. The bengals imo are not a good fit for Andy...we're not dominate enough.

I mentioned the lower ranking QB's because of two things. 1. I asked if you could find one that had everything a QB could ask for including a good HC. Think about it, maybe you will think a little differently about QB rankings and stats
2. Because near the bottom is where I'm predicting Andy will end this season at. 

Like so many on here, you insinuate that the best time to judge Dalton's true potential is when his o-line is in shambles, he has multiple injuries/changes at WR, is working in his 3rd OC (a rookie OC at that) and the team in general just blows. 

Basically, let's judge him for a situation where any QBs numbers would take a dive.  

Don't judge him on when the team was being run how it should be with healthy receivers and semi-decent blocking.

Seems backwards to me. You put any good QB in this situation, and they'd be lucky to escape with an 89.6 rating. 

Your point on bottom-ranked QBs would make more sense if it were always guys like Tannehill, Bortles and Geno Smith at the bottom. You always see some big names near the bottom though. This year, it's Newton, Flacco and Palmer all beneath Dalton. Why is that? Situations change, teams change, and sometimes that can make a good QB have a down season. Heck, even Brady was ranked around 19th in passer rating a few years ago when Gronk went down and he was working in New receivers...and he wasn't dealing with a horrendous o-line and a new rookie OC.

As much as you want to justify using this season as some scathing judgement of Dalton, it just doesn't work. Good QBs have mediocre seasons in bad situations. Pick any good QB in NFL history and I can show you a bad season or 3, where he underperformed due to problems around him.

You say Dalton can win a SB with a great team around him. The question I would ask you, is what QB can win a SB with an average team around him? Many view Newton as elite. He needed an elite defense and good weapons and blocking to even reach the SB. Flaccid and Eli needed great defense in the playoffs. Brady has great blocking, good weapons, and great defense. Wilson has outstanding defense and great run game. Etc etc. Stop using that as some kind of indictment of Dalton when it's true of every good QB.

(12-02-2016, 02:00 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Like so many on here, you insinuate that the best time to judge Dalton's true potential is when his o-line is in shambles, he has multiple injuries/changes at WR, is working in his 3rd OC (a rookie OC at that) and the team in general just blows. 

Basically, let's judge him for a situation where any QBs numbers would take a dive.  

Don't judge him on when the team was being run how it should be with healthy receivers and semi-decent blocking.

Seems backwards to me. You put any good QB in this situation, and they'd be lucky to escape with an 89.6 rating. 

Your point on bottom-ranked QBs would make more sense if it were always guys like Tannehill, Bortles and Geno Smith at the bottom. You always see some big names near the bottom though. This year, it's Newton, Flacco and Palmer all beneath Dalton. Why is that? Situations change, teams change, and sometimes that can make a good QB have a down season. Heck, even Brady was ranked around 19th in passer rating a few years ago when Gronk went down and he was working in New receivers...and he wasn't dealing with a horrendous o-line and a new rookie OC.

As much as you want to justify using this season as some scathing judgement of Dalton, it just doesn't work. Good QBs have mediocre seasons in bad situations. Pick any good QB in NFL history and I can show you a bad season or 3, where he underperformed due to problems around him.

You say Dalton can win a SB with a great team around him. The question I would ask you, is what QB can win a SB with an average team around him? Many view Newton as elite. He needed an elite defense and good weapons and blocking to even reach the SB. Flaccid and Eli needed great defense in the playoffs. Brady has great blocking, good weapons, and great defense. Wilson has outstanding defense and great run game. Etc etc. Stop using that as some kind of indictment of Dalton when it's true of every good QB.

Maybe because so many on here feel that judging Dalton when (when all the stars line up) he has a healthy OL, a good and steady OC on the sidelines, our starting WR's are available and the team is just balling would be silly! Because like 2015, we would be a good team, winning a high percentage of our games. But not dominate!

Having all the stars line up perfectly to be good gets a lot folks on here excited. Why should one Bengal fan want to spoil anothers excitement? 
Better to wait until reality sets in. 

Unfortunately, that's when they'll expect the team to go out sign more offensive talent.

MB should spare no limits and reload year, after year with the best players in the NFL on offense. 
Example, just a few days ago a bunch of posters were suggesting Andy could use the services of, 6ft 5" tall, 4.3 speed Pryor to line up opposite of AJ. 

Even if we signed Pryor, it still would take everything being just right, to be just good, not dominate! That doesn't excite me.

Indictment of Andy? In some ways I guess I am because this team is designed to be lead by the offense and with the players he's had around him we should have been dominant on offense for at least a year or two but never quite reached it. The teams you mentioned for comparison were dominate were they not?


As for for QB rankings, as you know, I feel you put way too much on QB stats. 
My point is, QB's usually rise and fall in the rankings with their teams and as a team, unfortunately, we're going down and as a result Andy stats and ranking is going down as well. I'm hoping you'll stop emphasizing how great Andy is based solely on QB stats.

Earlier this season you predicted he would finish the season with a 90% passer rating and I thought the team would determine that.  

(12-02-2016, 05:25 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: Maybe because so many on here feel that judging Dalton when (when all the stars line up) he has a healthy OL, a good and steady OC on the sidelines, our starting WR's are available and the team is just balling would be silly! Because like 2015, we would be a good team, winning a high percentage of our games. But not dominate!

Having all the stars line up perfectly to be good gets a lot folks on here excited. Why should one Bengal fan want to spoil anothers excitement? 
Better to wait until reality sets in. 

Unfortunately, that's when they'll expect the team to go out sign more offensive talent.

MB should spare no limits and reload year, after year with the best players in the NFL on offense. 
Example, just a few days ago a bunch of posters were suggesting Andy could use the services of, 6ft 5" tall, 4.3 speed Pryor to line up opposite of AJ. 

Even if we signed Pryor, it still would take everything being just right, to be just good, not dominate! That doesn't excite me.

Indictment of Andy? In some ways I guess I am because this team is designed to be lead by the offense and with the players he's had around him we should have been dominant on offense for at least a year or two but never quite reached it. The teams you mentioned for comparison were dominate were they not?


As for for QB rankings, as you know, I feel you put way too much on QB stats. 
My point is, QB's usually rise and fall in the rankings with their teams and as a team, unfortunately, we're going down and as a result Andy stats and ranking is going down as well. I'm hoping you'll stop emphasizing how great Andy is based solely on QB stats.

Earlier this season you predicted he would finish the season with a 90% passer rating and I thought the team would determine that.  

1. We were healthy and stable last year, and was the team not dominant before Andy went down?

2. You say I put to much emphasis on stats, as if I don't watch the guy. I assure you I've watched plenty of Dalton and plenty of other QB's. Stats reflect reality though. Good QB usually put up good stats, do they not? Obviously if the team is bad, that changes things, but it doesn't change whether you have a good QB or not. Dalton is a good QB playing for a bad team at the moment.

3. Yes, I did predict a 90+ passer rating. I did so without thinking Eifert would miss 8 games, Green would miss 7 games, and the o-line would be one of the worst rated in the NFL (which also affects the run game, which also undoubtedly affects the passing game). For you to sit there and pretend this is all excuses and should have no effect on Dalton is kinda telling.

4. You say people want to "reload" on offense year after year, as if that's what the Bengals have been doing. How many 1st round picks have been on the offensive side during Dalton's tenure? The best FA's have been guys like LaFell and Law Firm. Where are all these mythical weapons at? How have the Bengals in any way spoiled Dalton outside of AJ Green?

_______________


As I've shown you, serious problems on offense can affect really good QBs. Even the best QBs. But we've seen what Andy can accomplish when things are as they should be. The team was dominant and he was among the best in the NFL. So it's not that Dalton needs a fantastic team to be a dominant QB, it's that any good QB needs those things to be dominant. It's a team game, no matter how good your QB is.

No posts this week? You know.....after we finally benched the REAL problem on offense?

“When he got time, man, Andy’s one of the best getting the ball on time and throwing in rhythm,” LaFell said.

---------

And this is coming from a guy who has played with 2 MVP's. Hopefully Ogbuehi stays on the bench.

(12-04-2016, 09:20 PM)Wyche Wrote: No posts this week? You know.....after we finally benched the REAL problem on offense?

What?  Russell Bodine played the entire ga....



...oh you meant Cedric Ogbuehi...

Dalton haters, time to hide your pitchforks until the next time the Oline decides not to show up.

(12-05-2016, 02:07 AM)treee Wrote: Dalton haters, time to hide your pitchforks until the next time the Oline decides not to show up.

With Fisher and Winston rotating....the line looks a shit ton better.  Whoever is responsible for playing Ogbuehi over that rotation needs fired immediately.....and Andy should kick them in the balls repeatedly.

Dalton has a bad game?



Dalton has a great game?

(12-02-2016, 11:05 AM)Hammerthis Wrote: Like so many here, you insinuate that Andy's imperfections are due to his surroundings and when he performes flawlessly it's due to his ability. 
Poor coaching can effect a lot things, but I'm not sure if it can cause a veteran, 2xPB QB to consistently fumble, pass over WRs heads and etc.

I do respect Andy, and in fact,  I'm a firm believer that he can win a SB with the RIGHT TEAM! But so can all of the other starting QB's in the NFL. The bengals imo are not a good fit for Andy...we're not dominate enough.

I mentioned the lower ranking QB's because of two things. 1. I asked if you could find one that had everything a QB could ask for including a good HC. Think about it, maybe you will think a little differently about QB rankings and stats
2. Because near the bottom is where I'm predicting Andy will end this season at. 

Did you see what happened to Tom Brady when his offensive line failed to protect him?  And when he lost Gronk in prior seasons, have you seen what happens to his numbers?  Everyone believes Brady is the GOAT, but it is somehow acceptable for his numbers decline when his supporting cast is less than awesome.  Instead of saying that all starting QBs would win a Super Bowl with the right team, ask yourself:  how many QBs could do what Dalton has done with this team?

Look at Russell Wilson without Beast Mode or an amazing defense and offensive line.
Look at Andrew Luck without protection.  He has weapons galore, and he can't do crap without protection or a running game
Look at Aaron Rogers when he lost Jordy Nelson.

All you have to do is look at what Dalton has done when he had a decent offensive line (decent in pass pro, they always suck in run blocking), and has had both his main weapons on the field together (AJ and Eifert).  The answer is he wins.
And he has done this in what has been the toughest division in football during his career.  

Remember the Jets game this year?  How many QBs come back from that pounding and win the game?  

At this point in their careers, there is not one NFL QB I would take over Dalton.  Not one.  

(12-05-2016, 05:00 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Dalton has a bad game?



Dalton has a great game?

I think there's a little more to it than that. This is his 6th year and us "haters" expect more than a good game here and there. If we dont win in the playoffs (which is looking like the case) Dalton will be a red target for criticism, deserved or not. People are frustrated. 

(12-10-2016, 12:00 AM)Fresno B Wrote: I think there's a little more to it than that. This is his 6th year and us "haters" expect more than a good game here and there. If we dont win in the playoffs (which is looking like the case) Dalton will be a red target for criticism, deserved or not. People are frustrated. 

Dalton has more than "a good game here or there". He has FAR more good games than bad, and that has held true this year despite all that is working against him. I get the frustration, but the criticism of Dalton is undeserved and way over the top at the very least. He's not the reason we're 4-7-1 and he's not the reason this team is 0-7 in the playoffs under Marvin Lewis. 

Think about it like this, Fresno. If Dalton had been drafted by the Seahawks, do you not think Dalton would have a serious playoff run or 2, and probably a ring? Do you think Russell Wilson would have a ring with Marvin Lewis, Piano Man, Mike Brown and co? Palmer wasted most of his career in Cincy, and Dalton is well on his way to wasting his. 

(12-01-2016, 07:24 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: I'm not excusing anything! Based on what McCarron showed and among other things, his ability to hold his bearings, the way the team rallied around him... I'm satisfied with giving him more opportunities to further develop his talent.  
In regards to Arians giving Palmer a good game plan...I agree with you.
Look, it goes w/out saying that every player is better with good coaching...not just Andy! I'm not defending ML.
 I think our main disagreement is you seem to think a QB should not be judged unless all the pieces are in place for him. Like a good HC, OL, RB's, WR's and a good defense. That's bull manure!

Take a look at the bottom ranked QB's for this season. Which of them have all of the pieces in place? None of them! And IMO it's the main reason for their low ranking. But they still get judged /critiqued by fans and the media don't they? 
Your boy Andy is headed towards the bottom in ranking, but it's his HC's fault?

Ahem. Dalton will finish nowhere near the bottom. Even with a terrible o-line, no run game, injured receivers and questionable coaching, the guy is having a fine season, which disproves your point about the players around Andy fully determining his personal success. Maybe you can finally admit the guy can ball, but (like any other good QB) he needs a good team around him to reach his true potential.

Brady wouldn't be Brady without Bill. Brees wouldn't be brees without Payton. Ben needed the chin, Tomlin, Haley and Lebeau's defense. Wilson needs Carroll, good RBs, receivers and the legion of boom. Dalton is no different. He's shown that he has top end ability. He just needs a solid team around him like anyone else, in order to play at his highest level.

Dalton's stats this season:

Ranks 5th in yards with 3,555
Ranks 12th in completion percentage with 64.7%
Ranks 10th in yards per attempt with 7.61
Ranks 18th in the NFL in passing TDs
Ranks tied for 23rd in least amount of interceptions with 6
Ranks 13th in QB rating with 93.8
Ranks 4th in rushing TDs among QBs with 3

And this is all without his #1 WR for 3 games.

In Dalton's last 25 games, he has a QB rating of 95 or higher in 17 games. 15 of those games he has a QB rating of 100 or higher. Not including the Steelers game where he played for 1 series.

However, in 6 of those 25 games, he has a QB rating of under 80.