People who want to give Andy's quick release for the O-lines protection the last few don't know what they are saying. Even when Andy threw the deep ball that he could not release immediately he was getting good protection. Also he was not getting hit. If his quick release was all that was keeping him from getting sacked then he would still be hit or rushed more than other QBs and that just was not happening.

A quick release can help keep a QB from getting sacked, but it can't keep him from getting pressured or hurried. We are only talking about one or two tenths of a second.

Dennard is looking solid. Not sure he's quick twitch enough though. Maybe a move to safety . He can definitely tackle. With Dre, Dennard n Jackson at cb. We are set there for a while. N add Shaw. Shitty part is the 2017 is loaded at CB. But sitting a 1st or 2nd round pick for a year or two is asinine

I guess we see just exactly what 2/10 of a second equates to this season, huh?

(12-08-2016, 03:18 PM)Wyche Wrote: I guess we see just exactly what 2/10 of a second equates to this season, huh?

Absolutely.  The pass protection has been bad.  If Andy's quick release could keep him from being sacked he would be using it this year.

(12-08-2016, 03:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Absolutely.  The pass protection has been bad.  If Andy's quick release could keep him from being sacked he would be using it this year.

.....except that there are times (when Piano Man's protege isn't snapping worm burners) when Dalton doesn't even have time for a play fake, or to even look for a receiver.

(12-07-2016, 10:41 PM)Go Cards Wrote: PA must go !

Here, here!!!

Get them pichforks out people!!!

Come on Munoz, Lap or McNally or anybody. We need a new O-line coach pronto! :paul:

(12-08-2016, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: People who want to give Andy's quick release for the O-lines protection the last few don't know what they are saying.  Even when Andy threw the deep ball that he could not release immediately he was getting good protection.  Also he was not getting hit.  If his quick release was all that was keeping him from getting sacked then he would still be hit or rushed more than other QBs and that just was not happening.

A quick release can help keep a QB from getting sacked, but it can't keep him from getting pressured or hurried.  We are only talking about one or two tenths of a second.

Those tenths of a second add up.

The game of football is about tenths of a second.

Dalton helps himself and the team out with his quick release.

(12-08-2016, 04:09 PM)Wyche Wrote: .....except that there are times (when Piano Man's protege isn't snapping worm burners) when Dalton doesn't even have time for a play fake, or to even look for a receiver.

Exactly.  That is what bad pass protection looks like.

(12-08-2016, 04:12 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Those tenths of a second add up.

The game of football is about tenths of a second.

Dalton helps himself and the team out with his quick release.

If 2 tenths of a second is the difference between a sack and a pass attempt then the QB is going to be hit.  A defender within 2 tenths of a second of hitting a QB can not stop.

Dalton was not getting hit a lot the past few years when he had good pass protection.  His quick release was not the reason he had low sack numbers.

(12-07-2016, 11:06 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: Not necessarily.  He is definitely better on the left side, which he excelled at in college.  I don't know that he ever played on the right side prior to coming here.  In my mind he was drafted to be the LT of the future, but they wanted to get him on the field.

Are you talking about Fisher or Ogbuehi?

Ogbuehi has a good skill set ideally to play LT in the NFL, but his actual experience and performance at LT in college was little and lackluster.
He started his college career in 2012 as a guard and then had a great season at RT in 2013.
In 2014, he started at LT and was hit-or-miss, eventually shifting between LT and RT for the remainder of the year.

Ogbuehi's biggest problem even back in college was having the strength and anchor to keep defenders at bay. His athleticism was off the charts, which PA obsessed over (same with Fisher).
Unfortunately, Ogbuehi still displays that lack of strength and anchor at the NFL level, at least when he was in at RT. Perhaps LT will serve him better if/when he faces faster edge rushers who try to go around him rather than through him. Hopefully he also really adds strength within the next year or so and also learns better technique so he can actually succeed in the NFL at tackle.

Jake Fisher played both LT and RT at Oregon.
He played RT in 2012-2013 and LT in 2014. He also played guard in 2011.

Ogbuehi has not yet had a healthy training camp.

There is no defending how bad he performed. It was not all just physical. He looked lost against stunts and twists, and his technique was sloppy (but not knowing exactly who to block can make your feet look slow and your hands look bad)

I am not writing him off yet. He has never had a healthy training camp and we have never missed on a single highly drafted O-linemen in the Paul Alexander era. But he needs to improve in all three main areas... strength, technique, and mental recognition.

(12-08-2016, 04:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Ogbuehi has not yet had a healthy training camp.

There is no defending how bad he performed.  It was not all just physical.  He looked lost against stunts and twists, and his technique was sloppy (but not knowing exactly who to block can make your feet look slow and your hands look bad)  

I am not writing him off yet.  He has never had a healthy training camp and we have never missed on a single highly drafted O-linemen in the Paul Alexander era.  But he needs to improve in all three main areas... strength, technique, and mental recognition.

I hope you're right, but Fisher has had the benefit of both TCs, and he hasn't looked much better.

(12-08-2016, 04:45 PM)Wyche Wrote: I hope you're right, but Fisher has had the benefit of both TCs, and he hasn't looked much better.

Fisher probably spent the offseason working on his route-running skills.  

(12-08-2016, 04:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If 2 tenths of a second is the difference between a sack and a pass attempt then the QB is going to be hit.  A defender within 2 tenths of a second of hitting a QB can not stop.

Dalton was not getting hit a lot the past few years when he had good pass protection.  His quick release was not the reason he had low sack numbers.

Whit has played great the last few years as has Boling and even Zeitler.

But i just don't believe that Dalton having a quick release does not help them all out, especially in the sack department.

I'm torn on Alexander. The last few drafts haven't been good, but you can't overlook the following guys that he drafted:

Willie Anderson
Levi Jones
Eric Steinbach
Kevin Zietler
Andrew Whitworth
Clint Boling

That's a pretty good set of guys

(12-08-2016, 04:52 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Whit has played great the last few years as has Boling and even Zeitler.

But i just don't believe that Dalton having a quick release does not help them all out, especially in the sack department.

It's not only the release, it's his mobility, it's the quick reads of the defense and pre snap reads.....he helps them quite a bit, because pressure up the gut has been a staple his entire career here.  Center play has been atrocious at best.  Then there was the whole Nate Livings fiasco.....

(12-08-2016, 05:28 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I'm torn on Alexander.  The last few drafts haven't been good, but you can't overlook the following guys that he drafted:

Willie Anderson
Levi Jones
Eric Steinbach
Kevin Zietler
Andrew Whitworth
Clint Boling

That's a pretty good set of guys

I just think time has passed him by.....I give him a lot of grief, partially because I played on the line, partially because of his ties to the abyss, and partially to watch fred squirm   ......but in reality, I think he's just outdated and stubborn.

(12-08-2016, 05:28 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I'm torn on Alexander.  The last few drafts haven't been good, but you can't overlook the following guys that he drafted:

Willie Anderson
Levi Jones
Eric Steinbach
Kevin Zietler
Andrew Whitworth
Clint Boling

That's a pretty good set of guys

Not saying those are not some good Lineman but what happened to Zeitler this year?

He has played poorly all by himself. I know he had the turnstyle next to him and Bodine on the left but still.

He regressed this year.

Also, it is not all who you draft, it is how you develop them and he was bad with Livings, Gutcheck, Cook and
now Bodine, Og and Fisher. He has been here for like 25 frickin' years as well, i think it is high time for a change.

(12-08-2016, 05:47 PM)Wyche Wrote: It's not only the release, it's his mobility, it's the quick reads of the defense and pre snap reads.....he helps them quite a bit, because pressure up the gut has been a staple his entire career here.  Center play has been atrocious at best.  Then there was the whole Nate Livings fiasco.....

You know it Wyche as usual.

(12-08-2016, 04:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Fisher probably spent the offseason working on his route-running skills.  

Gonna take a minute to get used to fredtoast 2.0 ( non insulting, jovial ) :andy: