I think that Alexander needs to go, but I just had this thought: Is it possible that PA was the Bengals' #1 supporter of Jake Fisher during the entire draft scouting process, and that picking Ogbuehi first was a Tobin/Marvin move because of his supposed athleticism and upside? I could see PA then strongly insisting we draft Fisher but being forced to play Ogbuehi in front of him until now because of their draft position. If Fisher was a favorite of PA and possibly Hue, then perhaps that's why he got to play so many different positions last year and has so many special pass plays designed for him. Somehow this makes more sense to me than to believe that Fisher was Marvin's guy all along.

To add to that, I can see Alexander liking Fisher because he was acutally good at football in college and had a mean streak (most penalized player in the draft, I believe).

(12-08-2016, 05:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Not saying those are not some good Lineman but what happened to Zeitler this year?

He has played poorly all by himself. I know he had the turnstyle next to him and Bodine on the left but still.

He regressed this year.

Also, it is not all who you draft, it is how you develop them and he was bad with Livings, Gutcheck, Cook and
now Bodine, Og and Fisher. He has been here for like 25 frickin' years as well, i think it is high time for a change.

Agree with this. WW mentioned the Nate Livings fiasco. I am having a brain freeze and don't recall the details of that fiasco. Can I buy a vowel, please?

pass pro not bad against Eagles

where was the run blocking?

We do not have a top 16 oline.

The whole unit needs to be re-evaluated and someone needs to make a hard call on the need for new players whether it is time for a new coach.

Mike Brown's loyalty is a strength and also a major weakness.

Don't have the numbers in front of me, but Dalton was typically closer to a half second faster than the average QB. Not 2/10ths. That's a big difference. Yes 1/2 second on average can reduce sacks by a great deal. A half second is an eternity in the NFL.

(12-08-2016, 05:28 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I'm torn on Alexander.  The last few drafts haven't been good, but you can't overlook the following guys that he drafted:

Willie Anderson
Levi Jones
Eric Steinbach
Kevin Zietler
Andrew Whitworth
Clint Boling

That's a pretty good set of guys

Too bad there isn't a decent Center anywhere in that list. :paul:

(12-08-2016, 04:33 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Are you talking about Fisher or Ogbuehi?

Ogbuehi has a good skill set ideally to play LT in the NFL, but his actual experience and performance at LT in college was little and lackluster.
He started his college career in 2012 as a guard and then had a great season at RT in 2013.
In 2014, he started at LT and was hit-or-miss, eventually shifting between LT and RT for the remainder of the year.

Ogbuehi's biggest problem even back in college was having the strength and anchor to keep defenders at bay. His athleticism was off the charts, which PA obsessed over (same with Fisher).
Unfortunately, Ogbuehi still displays that lack of strength and anchor at the NFL level, at least when he was in at RT. Perhaps LT will serve him better if/when he faces faster edge rushers who try to go around him rather than through him. Hopefully he also really adds strength within the next year or so and also learns better technique so he can actually succeed in the NFL at tackle.

Jake Fisher played both LT and RT at Oregon.
He played RT in 2012-2013 and LT in 2014. He also played guard in 2011.

I'm definitely not an expert on this matter. You mention that DEs who line up against the RT generally try to plow through with a bull rush. Is Carlos Dunlap unusual on that side of the line? That dude just uses athleticism, and finesse. I'm sure he's strong as shit too, but you no what I mean.

On a side note, Dunlap is on fire disrupting the passing game this year.

(12-09-2016, 11:41 PM)jason Wrote: I'm definitely not an expert on this matter. You mention that DEs who line up against the RT generally try to plow through with a bull rush. Is Carlos Dunlap unusual on that side of the line? That dude just uses athleticism, and finesse. I'm sure he's strong as shit too, but you no what I mean.

On a side note, Dunlap is on fire disrupting the passing game this year.

Yeah, Dunlap be good.

(12-07-2016, 10:54 PM)eoxyod Wrote: Ok then so question, shouldn't he receive the same amount of blame for trotting out TJ Clemmings every week, despite him being easily the worst LT in all of football? He's getting his QBs killed but he still starts every week. The answer to this is just that sometimes your hands ARE tied. Ogbeuhi is terrible. That much is true. But Winston is equally terrible. Winston has given up 2 strip sacks. He has caused Andy a ton of pressure too. However having Ced out there gives you much more upside with his athleticism and youth. While it obviously didn't work out, it's hard to say the coaches are left with many other options. If Fisher were showing better signs in practice then he would have been out there often. It sucks, it was a bad pick, but they are working with what they have.

Pretty sure that Minnesota's o-line has been decimated by multiple injuries. I haven't fact checked it but thought I had heard or read something like that. I know they lost Smith at RT.

(12-10-2016, 11:18 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Pretty sure that Minnesota's o-line has been decimated by multiple injuries. I haven't fact checked it but thought I had heard or read something like that. I know they lost Smith at RT.

...and Long at LT.

(12-07-2016, 10:33 PM)Burma Wrote: It's impossible to know who to be irritated with, honestly.  Is Paul handcuffed, by his bosses, in who he plays? Or is he the one responsible for playing guys that are failing.  I don't think I have ever heard who makes the calls on these things.  It's not your typical organizational structure.  Until I know for certain I will just have to maintain a general testiness and willingness to reassign blame as new facts arise.  Having said that, I wholly expect to engage in wanton and random accusations of incompetence, which are wildly satisfying in these times of uncertainty. 

You make a good point. Would it really be too far fetched to assume Mikey wants his 1st rd pick out there no matter what. Marvin does have the 3 year rookie redshirt policy. But at the end of the day one of these coach's need to grow a pair if thats the case. With the remark PA made about NOT CARING IF CED IS HAVING A BAD DAY leads me to believe that it was PA's decision to start him as long as he has. Marvin obviously doesn't strike fear in any of the asst. coach's like wise with the players to allow PA to continue to start this kid. We can slice and dice this train wreck of a franchise up all we want to figure out who's to blame when everyone knows its Mikey and Marvin period.

(12-08-2016, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: People who want to give Andy's quick release for the O-lines protection the last few don't know what they are saying.  Even when Andy threw the deep ball that he could not release immediately he was getting good protection.  Also he was not getting hit.  If his quick release was all that was keeping him from getting sacked then he would still be hit or rushed more than other QBs and that just was not happening.

A quick release can help keep a QB from getting sacked, but it can't keep him from getting pressured or hurried.  We are only talking about one or two tenths of a second.

AJ  green will travel 40 yards in about 4.5 seconds. So dalton has to throw it after 2.5 seconds because it takes 2 seconds for the ball to travel 40 yards. So even on deep throws the ball still is has to be thrown shortly after the snap.

What makes you think that deep throws allow the qb to take longer to throw the ball. Have you ever calculated the math on that. I just did the calculation since your bad at math.

Anything less than 2.5 seconds is a quickly thrown ball.  You have been schooled toast.

(12-11-2016, 05:20 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: What makes you think that deep throws allow the qb to take longer to throw the ball. 

Watching a football game.  Dalton makes a lot of throws almost as soon as he touches the ball.  On the deeper throws it takes longer. If his average is over 2 seconds then that means he has a lot of passes that take a few seconds for him to release.  

(12-11-2016, 11:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton makes a lot of throws almost as soon as he touches the ball.

That statement is absolutely untrue. The average amount of time he throws the ball is 2.5 seconds.  80% of his throws will be less than 10 yards.  So most of those short passes less than 10 yards will be thrown in 2.5 seconds.  His long throws will be unleashed in 2.5 seconds

The bottom line is whether its a short or long throw the ball is usually out in 2.5 seconds.

(12-08-2016, 05:49 PM)Wyche Wrote: I just think time has passed him by.....I give him a lot of grief, partially because I played on the line, partially because of his ties to the abyss, and partially to watch fred squirm   ......but in reality, I think he's just outdated and stubborn.

I'm leaning toward stubborn, but since I have zero experience playing on the line, how would you describe the "outdated" aspect? Beyond fundamentals, what are the advancements in OL technique when comparing PA's early days to present day? 

(12-09-2016, 07:15 PM)Derrick Wrote: Agree with this. WW mentioned the Nate Livings fiasco. I am having a brain freeze and don't recall the details of that fiasco. Can I buy a vowel, please?

PA just kept starting Livings over Evan Mathis for like 2 or 3 years while Livings was clearly worse.

Hurt our team big time back then. Then he does it with Og and Bodine. Dude just keeps repeating failures.

He is the guy who wanted these guys and he got them. When they suck he is loyal to them to a fault.

PA needs to go more than any coach, maybe even more than Marv.

(12-11-2016, 02:37 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: PA just kept starting Livings over Evan Mathis for like 2 or 3 years while Livings was clearly worse.

No he did not.  Mathis started ahead of Livings in games 4-8 in '09 before getting injured.  In 2010 he did not deserve to start.

(12-11-2016, 01:43 PM)wildcats forever Wrote: I'm leaning toward stubborn, but since I have zero experience playing on the line, how would you describe the "outdated" aspect? Beyond fundamentals, what are the advancements in OL technique when comparing PA's early days to present day? 

You notice how our line never seems to fire off the ball.....instead they allow the defender to come to them?  Hue Jackson even mentioned he didn't understand what the hell Piano Man was doing....but it was working so he said nothing.  Admittedly....I never really paid a WHOLE lot of attention to his units prior to Marv getting here due to the massive amounts of blackouts throughout the 90s.  Personally.....I haven't been impressed with his unit since about 2006.

(12-11-2016, 06:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No he did not.  Mathis started ahead of Livings in games 4-8 in '09 before getting injured.  In 2010 he did not deserve to start.

Pppffffttttt....neither did Livings.  In fact...he shouldn't have even been on a roster.

(12-11-2016, 01:20 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: That statement is absolutely untrue. The average amount of time he throws the ball is 2.5 seconds.  80% of his throws will be less than 10 yards.  So most of those short passes less than 10 yards will be thrown in 2.5 seconds.  His long throws will be unleashed in 2.5 seconds

The bottom line is whether its a short or long throw the ball is usually out in 2.5 seconds.

Not sure I understand what you are saying.

If 80% of his passes are thrown in less than 2.5 seconds and the other 20% are thrown on 2.5 seconds then wouldn't his "average" be much less than 2.5 seconds?

(12-12-2016, 09:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Not sure I understand what you are saying.

If 80% of his passes are thrown in less than 2.5 seconds and the other 20% are thrown on 2.5 seconds then wouldn't his "average" be much less than 2.5 seconds?

Its very clear what I'm saying. I never said 80% of his short passes average less than 2.5 seconds. I said 80% of his passes are less than 10 yards. I also said those short passes less than 10 yards will average 2.5 seconds

He averages 2.5 seconds a throw. We know his long passes average 2.5 seconds. Therefor his short passes also average 2.5 seconds.

If his short passes average 1.5 seconds like you claim. Then .8 x 1.5 s is 1.2 s and .2 * 2.5 s is .5 s . His average throwing time would be 1.2 s + .5 s which is 1.7 seconds.

He averages 2.5 seconds a throw because those short passes take as long to throw on average as his long passes