(01-18-2017, 01:39 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: So true!!! It is like speaking with a toddler. The funny part is most of these posters are pretty sharp on the topic of football, they are just Dalton dumb. They are hyper critical of all other QB's but don't hold Andy accountable for anything. They fail to see they win the argument if the stance is "Andy is an adequate starter that is cable of taking a solid team deep into the playoffs". Instead they want to make RIDICULOUS that he is a top tier QB...lol!

I do respect their loyalty however. These are the people you would want in a no win situation...they are the fan equivalent to the band on the titanic. The best part is they have no idea why people think they are so out of touch. 

Dalton has a career 57.8 passer rating in the playoffs. He's thrown 1 TD and 6 Ints.

Tom Brady had a career 87.4 passer rating in the playoffs. He's thrown 58 TD's and 30 Ints.

Big difference.

(01-18-2017, 01:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I understand that folks in here like to think themselves as footbal savy and I see a lot saying it is not Brady; it is the system. Do they think the Patriots are dumb? If a QB that historically finishes mid-pack in QB ratings can do what Brady can do in New England then why do they pay him over $20 mil a year?

They have shown they are not shy about letting big names walk. Why didn't they keep that winner Matt Cassel, or Hoyer, or Mallet? Why did they extend Brady when they have Jimmy G in house?

Folks saying Andy could do what Brady can do in NE or Brady would do no better than Andy here are doing nothing more than making things up. It makes it hard to take their football acumen seriously.

Tom Brady as i said has that killer instinct that not many QB's have.

Dalton doesn't have it. Yet. We don't know if he will develop it. We have all seen Dalton in the regular season
play clutch and amazingly so especially last season in the Raven and Seahawk games. Who is to say what a guy
like Dalton who i believe is far superior to the likes of the QB's you mentioned would do under Belichick.

Moot point though, cause we will never know.

I still really like Dalton after the last couple years, before this i didn't know about the guy.

I doubt Brady would of done better than Dalton with Og at RT and Bodine at Center here this year.

This is all i can say. But we will never know.

(01-18-2017, 01:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I understand that folks in here like to think themselves as footbal savy and I see a lot saying it is not Brady; it is the system. Do they think the Patriots are dumb? If a QB that historically finishes mid-pack in QB ratings can do what Brady can do in New England then why do they pay him over $20 mil a year?

They have shown they are not shy about letting big names walk. Why didn't they keep that winner Matt Cassel, or Hoyer, or Mallet? Why did they extend Brady when they have Jimmy G in house?

Folks saying Andy could do what Brady can do in NE or Brady would do no better than Andy here are doing nothing more than making things up. It makes it hard to take their football acumen seriously.

I think that Brady would be good here. AJ Green, Eifert, Lafell. We probably have more weapons on offense than NE does...especially with Gronk out.

(01-18-2017, 01:43 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Dalton has a career 57.8 passer rating in the playoffs. He's thrown 1 TD and 6 Ints.

Tom Brady had a career 87.4 passer rating in the playoffs. He's thrown 58 TD's and 30 Ints.

Big difference.

For damn sure, that is why i say it is unfair to compare them in the Playoffs.

But to be fair the whole team has played terrible in all our playoff games besides our Defense
last year against the Steelers and Dalton was not in that game.

(01-18-2017, 01:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: For damn sure, that is why i say it is unfair to compare them in the Playoffs.

But to be fair the whole team has played terrible in all our playoff games besides our Defense
last year against the Steelers and Dalton was not in that game.

Here is the disconnect. 
The argument that if all things are equal: Dalton = Brady means that all things being equal: Keenum = Dalton = Brady.

If you believe that all NFL QB's are of equal talent, intellect, leadership ability, guts, and spirit and are willing to say that Dalton could easily be replaced by any NFL QB. Then and only then does your argument (albeit wrong) has foundation.

If you are not willing to say that Dalton could be equally replaced by the likes of Keenum, Fitzpatrick, Bortles, Wentz, Kaepernick, Oswieler, Siemian (all lower rated QB's in 2016 by QBR ANDY is 20th) then you can not make the claim he could equally replace any of the QB's ahead of him (the list is too long to name...but is is EVERYBODY not listed)

(01-18-2017, 01:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: For damn sure, that is why i say it is unfair to compare them in the Playoffs.

But to be fair the whole team has played terrible in all our playoff games besides our Defense
last year against the Steelers and Dalton was not in that game.

This is a good point.  Brady threw two picks against the Texans, and nearly a couple more.  The Patriots also fumbled a kickoff.  They didn't implode, the Bengals ALWAYS do.

This team isn't mentally tough when it counts in the postseason, Dalton included.  To me, it all falls back on coaching.

(01-18-2017, 01:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: For damn sure, that is why i say it is unfair to compare them in the Playoffs.

But to be fair the whole team has played terrible in all our playoff games besides our Defense
last year against the Steelers and Dalton was not in that game.

It goes beyond the playoffs for Dalton. Some guys rise in big games. He fades.

Primetime games. Games against the Steelers. He just doesn't elevate his play.

Maybe one day he will...but he's almost 30 years old.

(01-18-2017, 02:07 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Here is the disconnect. 
The argument that if all things are equal: Dalton = Brady means that all things being equal: Keenum = Dalton = Brady.

If you believe that all NFL QB's are of equal talent, intellect, leadership ability, guts, and spirit and are willing to say that Dalton could easily be replaced by any NFL QB. Then and only then does your argument (albeit wrong) has foundation.

If you are not willing to say that Dalton could be equally replaced by the likes of Keenum, Fitzpatrick, Bortles, Wentz, Kaepernick, Oswieler, Siemian (all lower rated QB's in 2016 by QBR ANDY is 20th) then you can not make the claim he could equally replace any of the QB's ahead of him (the list is too long to name...but is is EVERYBODY not listed)

All NFL QB's don't have equal talent and i never stated such. Dalton could not be easily replaced by any NFL QB.

Why does my argument have no foundation when i say it is only fair to judge these two STARTING QB's in the regular
season? We have a shitty HC a shitty OL coach and these hurt our QB and would hurt even a QB like Brady who has the
best HC in the NFL and arguably the best OL coach in the NFL.

I don't understand your argument and don't understand why you don't understand this.

Brady is killer in the Playoffs and in the big games and we all know it. But coaching is also a factor.

(01-18-2017, 02:08 PM)Wyche Wrote: This is a good point.  Brady threw two picks against the Texans, and nearly a couple more.  The Patriots also fumbled a kickoff.  They didn't implode, the Bengals ALWAYS do.

This team isn't mentally tough when it counts in the postseason, Dalton included.  To me, it all falls back on coaching.

Damn rights Wyche, comes down to the coaches in the end. Dalton has bad ones and Brady does not.

(01-18-2017, 10:10 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Your first paragraph sounds like you are mentioning them in the same breath, which counters your previous statements that it is "silly".

I know very well that Dalton hasn't produced on the biggest stage, but I would add that his coaches, defense, weapons, etc. didn't as well where Tom (who was a glorified game manager in those early super bowls) has a more complete performance from his team.  

Nowhere did I say Dalton was better than Brady, especially in the postseason, but the point I was contending was that it isn't right to say they can't be mentioned in the same breath.  That's all.  Look no further than Aaron Rogers:  one super bowl despite being one of the best, or maybe THE best QB of all time...his team around him didn't perform up to the competition.  It takes a whole team.  No team has won a Super Bowl simply because they had a great QB.  Ditto Marino.  It takes a team.  

I prefaced that to not belittle what AD is; A good NFL QB who will win you games. I was trying not to sound like a Andy basher, but be reasonable with my thought of him. But when you look at the body of work as a whole, I think it is silly. That's all. Rather it's because Brady was a benefactor of an amazing org top to bottom or otherwise, comparing the two is, again, kinda silly. Nothing against you at all, just my lousy two cents.

(01-18-2017, 02:21 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: All NFL QB's don't have equal talent and i never stated such. Dalton could not be easily replaced by any NFL QB.

Why does my argument have no foundation when i say it is only fair to judge these two STARTING QB's in the regular
season? We have a shitty HC a shitty OL coach and these hurt our QB and would hurt even a QB like Brady who has the
best HC in the NFL and arguably the best OL coach in the NFL.

I don't understand your argument and don't understand why you don't understand this.

Brady is killer in the Playoffs and in the big games and we all know it. But coaching is also a factor.


Damn rights Wyche, comes down to the coaches in the end. Dalton has bad ones and Brady does not.

Nate that post was not necessarily pointed directly at just your argument but the argument of any that believe Dalton would be as successful as Brady (and  large number of other Top QB's)  given just a QB swap. I quoted your post and maybe should not of. Apologies. 

There are very few if any subjective knowledgeable football minds that would say the Pats would be the same with Andy at the Helm rather than Brady. Those same knowledgeable football minds would say that Brady would have done much more than has been accomplished by Andy in Cincy...even with Marvin as the coach. A QB of the top level would lessen the need and impact of Marvin. Andy is a victim of his own inability to take over a game and lead the team. 

Here is a question for anyone that posses the argument that these two QB's are basically capable of the same results. 

It what playoff game that Andy has lost do you feel that Brady would not have won?
Conversely in what playoff game has Brady lost that Andy would have lead them to victory? 

(01-18-2017, 11:27 AM)Jpoore Wrote: a superior scheme can beat a superior team any day 

Seriously? So there's no need for good players if they have a other worldly scheme? 

(01-18-2017, 02:20 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It goes beyond the playoffs for Dalton. Some guys rise in big games. He fades.

Primetime games. Games against the Steelers. He just doesn't elevate his play.

Maybe one day he will...but he's almost 30 years old.

Meh, I think he has gotten better in the regular season, primetime included.  Didn't he and Green go off against Pitt at PBS when our defense decided to let the Stoolers run roughshod all over us with the same power sweep play Vince Lombardi was running in the 60s?

In fact, "17 game-winning drives  90.4 rating in prime time since the 2.0 game (9 games)".   (borrowed from Shake's sig)


Playoffs?  That HAS been an achilles heel.  I think he was poised to shed that monkey in 2015, but we'll never know, unfortunately.

(01-18-2017, 02:42 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Seriously? So there's no need for good players if they have a other worldly scheme? 

The timeless conundrum

is it the Jimmy's & Joes or the X's & O's 

(01-18-2017, 02:39 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Nate that post was not necessarily pointed directly at just your argument but the argument of any that believe Dalton would be as successful as Brady (and  large number of other Top QB's)  given just a QB swap. I quoted your post and maybe should not of. Apologies. 

There are very few if any subjective knowledgeable football minds that would say the Pats would be the same with Andy at the Helm rather than Brady. Those same knowledgeable football minds would say that Brady would have done much more than has been accomplished by Andy in Cincy...even with Marvin as the coach. A QB of the top level would lessen the need and impact of Marvin. Andy is a victim of his own inability to take over a game and lead the team. 

Here is a question for anyone that posses the argument that these two QB's are basically capable of the same results. 

It what playoff game that Andy has lost do you feel that Brady would not have won?
Conversely in what playoff game has Brady lost that Andy would have lead them to victory? 

Andy is most certainly not Tom Brady.  That said, it does hold merit that if he (or Palmer for that matter), had been developed under superior tutelage, they would most likely have better success than they have had in this cesspool of nepotism, inept management, and piss poor in-game coaching.  

Would Brady win a playoff game or two here (playing his entire career under these deadbeats)?  Most likely.  A Super Bowl?  Not a chance.

(01-18-2017, 02:47 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: The timeless conundrum

is it the Jimmy's & Joes or the X's & O's 

I just have a hard time believing that every player we draft, sign, or trade for is a choke artist.  There are two constants, however.

(01-18-2017, 02:52 PM)Wyche Wrote: Andy is most certainly not Tom Brady.  That said, it does hold merit that if he (or Palmer for that matter), had been developed under superior tutelage, they would most likely have better success than they have had in this cesspool of nepotism, inept management, and piss poor in-game coaching.  

Would Brady win a playoff game or two here (playing his entire career under these deadbeats)?  Most likely.  A Super Bowl?  Not a chance.

Man Wyche...you do make a strong point! 

I literally laughed out loud due to the spot on frankness of this statement "This cesspool of nepotism, inept management, and piss poor in-game coaching"
 

(01-18-2017, 02:39 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Nate that post was not necessarily pointed directly at just your argument but the argument of any that believe Dalton would be as successful as Brady (and  large number of other Top QB's)  given just a QB swap. I quoted your post and maybe should not of. Apologies. 

There are very few if any subjective knowledgeable football minds that would say the Pats would be the same with Andy at the Helm rather than Brady. Those same knowledgeable football minds would say that Brady would have done much more than has been accomplished by Andy in Cincy...even with Marvin as the coach. A QB of the top level would lessen the need and impact of Marvin. Andy is a victim of his own inability to take over a game and lead the team. 

Here is a question for anyone that posses the argument that these two QB's are basically capable of the same results. 

It what playoff game that Andy has lost do you feel that Brady would not have won?
Conversely in what playoff game has Brady lost that Andy would have lead them to victory? 

Yeah, but you quoted me. I completely agree with what you say here Rhino. To your two questions...

Based off of Playoffs and big games, Brady would of had problems with our coaches as Dalton did i am sure.

Our whole team falls apart in the Playoffs except in like i said earlier our last Playoff game against the bastids
when our Defense showed up and played plenty well enough to win that game. Both Dalton and Brady would
of won that game, too bad we had McCarron.

Dalton had no weapons against the Colts but Brady has shown he can do well without weapons. Maybe a win
with Brady, maybe. Might of made Burkhead look like Welker out there. Still, lost all of our good players in this
one. Tough on any QB even Brady and especially with Marvin Lewis at the helm who does not make in game
adjustments.

I don't know for sure, i bet Brady would of won the Charger game. Up 10-7 at Halftime but the Chargers have
gave Brady problems in the past. Rivers is a great QB in his own right.

The 2nd Texan game Dalton overthrew AJ with a chance to win that one, close.

The first one he was a rookie and cannot hold that against Dalton.

The answer to the first question. 2 of those games Brady may not of won, the Colts and Chargers IMO. Brady
owns the Texans but Dalton was a rookie and that is a bit unfair in itself.

To the second question, i honestly don't know cause Dalton has not shown enough in the Playoffs. I am sure
he would of won atleast a few though with Belichick and company. Hell, Dalton like i truly believe would of
won last years Playoff game against the Steelers here.

(01-18-2017, 02:57 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Man Wyche...you do make a strong point! 

I literally laughed out loud due to the spot on frankness of this statement "This cesspool of nepotism, inept management, and piss poor in-game coaching"
 

LOL....I try to leave little doubt where I stand. :andy:

All jokes aside, we have half the scouting departments of successful NFL franchises.  I DO wonder if the fact that our coaching staff has to do some of its own scouting effects the X's and O's side of things, or vice/versa.

(01-18-2017, 02:08 PM)Wyche Wrote: This is a good point.  Brady threw two picks against the Texans, and nearly a couple more.  The Patriots also fumbled a kickoff.  They didn't implode, the Bengals ALWAYS do.

This team isn't mentally tough when it counts in the postseason, Dalton included.  To me, it all falls back on coaching.

(01-18-2017, 02:52 PM)Wyche Wrote: Andy is most certainly not Tom Brady.  That said, it does hold merit that if he (or Palmer for that matter), had been developed under superior tutelage, they would most likely have better success than they have had in this cesspool of nepotism, inept management, and piss poor in-game coaching.  

Would Brady win a playoff game or two here (playing his entire career under these deadbeats)?  Most likely.  A Super Bowl?  Not a chance.

As usual, I agree with Wyche's take. No I don't think Dalton is near Brady's level...particularly when it comes to killer instinct. Do I believe much of that comes from which franchise and coach they play for? You bet.

Do I believe Brady would win a playoff game in Cincy? Maybe. It'd take a QB of Brady's caliber and background to offset Marv. I'd bet on Dalton winning a SB with Belichick over Brady winning a SB with Marv any day though. Is there anyone who would disagree with that statement?

All things equal though Brady > pretty much everyone, of course.

(01-18-2017, 02:52 PM)Wyche Wrote: Andy is most certainly not Tom Brady.  That said, it does hold merit that if he (or Palmer for that matter), had been developed under superior tutelage, they would most likely have better success than they have had in this cesspool of nepotism, inept management, and piss poor in-game coaching.  

Would Brady win a playoff game or two here (playing his entire career under these deadbeats)?  Most likely.  A Super Bowl?  Not a chance.

(01-18-2017, 03:10 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: As usual, I agree with Wyche's take. No I don't think Dalton is near Brady's level...particularly when it comes to killer instinct. Do I believe much of that comes from which franchise and coach they play for? You bet.

Do I believe Brady would win a playoff game in Cincy? Maybe. I'd bet on Dalton winning a SB with Belichick over Brady winning a SB with Marv any day though. Is there anyone who would disagree with that statement?

All things equal though Brady > pretty much everyone, of course.

Great posts guys.