So I keep hearing people say...keep player so and so if it's a team friendly deal.

The Steelers game DeCastro $11 million a year. Zeitler is an equal caliber player. No way is he going to take $6-7 million to stay here. He's making $7.5 million currently.

The salary cap rises each year. We have other aging players who will be leaving in the future. You have to retain your talented players.

The Falcons signed Alex Mack who is a dominant Center to a 5 year $45 million contract. $9 million a year for a Center...and they are going to the Super Bowl!

We infrequently spend a large deal of money in external free agency. If we let guys like Zeitler walk, what are we saving that space for? Is it to retain future free agents? Well, what if they ask for more than people think they are worth?

Some teams have $90+ million in cap space. Salaries are going to keep escalating.

(01-23-2017, 12:06 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So I keep hearing people say...keep player so and so if it's a team friendly deal.

The Steelers game DeCastro $11 million a year. Zeitler is an equal caliber player. No way is he going to take $6-7 million to stay here. He's making $7.5 million currently.

The salary cap rises each year. We have other aging players who will be leaving in the future. You have to retain your talented players.

The Falcons signed Alex Mack who is a dominant Center to a 5 year $45 million contract. $9 million a year for a Center...and they are going to the Super Bowl!

We infrequently spend a large deal of money in external free agency. If we let guys like Zeitler walk, what are we saving that space for? Is it to retain future free agents? Well, what if they ask for more than people think they are worth?

Some teams have $90+ million in cap space. Salaries are going to keep escalating.

The thing that REALLY aggravates me, is we could have made a move on Mack years ago.  I was told what a fool I was for wanting to pay a Center on the old board.  El oh el.  We have a luxury of having a solid QB on a team friendly deal.  There is no excuse for not spending to add COMPETENT and YOUNG talent to the rest of the team.  None.

There is much more to a contract than the per year average. You can use signing bonuses and such to change the year to year dynamic of contracts. Normally when they say team friendly it is more about the structure than the number itself. The issue tends to be the cap number and there are ways to manipulate that to make everyone happy.

(01-23-2017, 12:44 PM)Au165 Wrote: There is much more to a contract than the per year average. You can use signing bonuses and such to change the year to year dynamic of contracts. Normally when they say team friendly it is more about the structure than the number itself. The issue tends to be the cap number and there are ways to manipulate that to make everyone happy.

In the context I'm referring to...fans that say 'team friendly' mean Zeitler signs for $6-7 million a year.

How are we going to build a championship level team if we constantly let our good free agents leave because they want what is deemed too much money and then don't sign quality external free agents?

With the new rookie pool...it should be easier to retain guys as with a Top 10 pick years ago you would have potentially had to pay a guy $50 million. Now guys are slotted and rookie deals are relatively cheap early on.

What it boils down to is you let your good players go because they want more money than you want to play and you replace them with an unproven rookie. That, or you end up drafting their replacement. The alternative is to keep the player and use your 1st Round pick to upgrade another position of need.

This strategy has destroyed a great roster.

Zeitler would be replaced with Westerman just like Smith was replaced by CO.

I'm sorry, but Zeitler has not played at the same level as DeCastro. There is absolutely no way in hell I would pay Zeitler anything more than $8 million per year. Why should he get paid All Pro money when he doesn't produce like an All Pro?

I understand we roll over a ton of money, I understand that we save more for draft picks than necessary, I understand that we keep WAY too much for an injury pool. However, I'd rather the front office continue to do stupid things like that than to give Zeitler a huge extension he hasn't earned. I'd be much happier dropping $10 million per year on a short term deal for Whitworth than dropping that kind of money on Zeitler. Whitworth has earned it, Zeitler, not so much.

(01-23-2017, 01:12 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: In the context I'm referring to...fans that say 'team friendly' mean Zeitler signs for $6-7 million a year.

How are we going to build a championship level team if we constantly let our good free agents leave because they want what is deemed too much money and then don't sign quality external free agents?

With the new rookie pool...it should be easier to retain guys as with a Top 10 pick years ago you would have potentially had to pay a guy $50 million. Now guys are slotted and rookie deals are relatively cheap early on.

As I said, you could realistically pay him 6-7 a year if you structured the guarantee/signing bonus correct. So while the per year looks like more it is only 6-7 a year against the cap, which is team friendly. The per year is a misleading number because so much of it is not guaranteed and on longer deals most is never seen. This is how we have always signed our guys is by creative structuring. I'm not saying 6-7 is the number (haven't even looked yet honestly), but we don't necessarily have to have the same per year to give him a similar deal to decastro.

(01-23-2017, 01:43 PM)Au165 Wrote: As I said, you could realistically pay him 6-7 a year if you structured the guarantee/signing bonus correct. So while the per year looks like more it is only 6-7 a year against the cap, which is team friendly. The per year is a misleading number because so much of it is not guaranteed and on longer deals most is never seen. This is how we have always signed our guys is by creative structuring. I'm not saying 6-7 is the number (haven't even looked yet honestly), but we don't necessarily have to have the same per year to give him a similar deal to decastro.

He made $7.5 million this past season.

Some team will pay him $10+ million a year...in which case he walks and we start Westerman and complain how he's a bottom tier starting Guard.

(01-23-2017, 12:06 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So I keep hearing people say...keep player so and so if it's a team friendly deal.

The Steelers game DeCastro $11 million a year. Zeitler is an equal caliber player. No way is he going to take $6-7 million to stay here. He's making $7.5 million currently.

The salary cap rises each year. We have other aging players who will be leaving in the future. You have to retain your talented players.

The Falcons signed Alex Mack who is a dominant Center to a 5 year $45 million contract. $9 million a year for a Center...and they are going to the Super Bowl!

We infrequently spend a large deal of money in external free agency. If we let guys like Zeitler walk, what are we saving that space for? Is it to retain future free agents? Well, what if they ask for more than people think they are worth?

Some teams have $90+ million in cap space. Salaries are going to keep escalating.

(01-23-2017, 01:26 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: I'm sorry, but Zeitler has not played at the same level as DeCastro. There is absolutely no way in hell I would pay Zeitler anything more than $8 million per year. Why should he get paid All Pro money when he doesn't produce like an All Pro?

I understand we roll over a ton of money, I understand that we save more for draft picks than necessary, I understand that we keep WAY too much for an injury pool. However, I'd rather the front office continue to do stupid things like that than to give Zeitler a huge extension he hasn't earned. I'd be much happier dropping $10 million per year on a short term deal for Whitworth than dropping that kind of money on Zeitler. Whitworth has earned it, Zeitler, not so much.

Exactly, Muskies. This thread is based around comparing Zeitler to All-Pros, which just isn't the case.

DeCastro: 1st Team All-Pro x1, 2nd Team All-Pro x1, Pro Bowl x2
Mack: 2nd Team All-Pro x2, Pro Bowl x4
Zeitler:

Yeah, those don't look like same caliber players to me, which means this thread is automatically pretty questionable at best.

We've done a good job for a while about making decent offers to our free agents. We get knocked for letting good players go, but those are often guys chasing championships, or guys who get overpaid because of thin spots.

(01-23-2017, 03:20 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Exactly, Muskies. This thread is based around comparing Zeitler to All-Pros, which just isn't the case.

DeCastro: 1st Team All-Pro x1, 2nd Team All-Pro x1, Pro Bowl x2
Mack: 2nd Team All-Pro x2, Pro Bowl x4
Zeitler:

Yeah, those don't look like same caliber players to me, which means this thread is automatically pretty questionable at best.

Switch DeCastro and Zeitler and Zeitler is the All-Pro. Zeitler plays by a horrible Center. DeCastro plays next to Pouncey.

It took a guy like Whitworth years to make the Pro Bowl. Bengals players notoriously don't receive accolades.

(01-23-2017, 03:32 PM)Benton Wrote: We've done a good job for a while about making decent offers to our free agents. We get knocked for letting good players go, but those are often guys chasing championships, or guys who get overpaid because of thin spots.

It would be ok to let them go...IF we had a replacement who was close to the same quality.

If they let Zeitler go they'd be insane.

Serviceable is like having an All-Pro on this team.

Aren't you guys who are bitching about him getting paid also the ones who remind people to be realistic?

This is our craptastic team.  Run by people who think turd polishing is their forte.

Between Marvin's ego, Paul Alexander's crushes and over inflated self worth, and Mike Brown's love for money and flashy position players...  we'd be doomed in FA at O-line.

Between you and me... this team really has sucked lately picking linemen on both sides of the ball.

That's why we don't have any answers on the roster to aging players or soon to be free agents.

If you look through the contracts across the teams that consistently make the playoffs, you'll see the following pattern:
On offense...
Pay good money (typically $7+ mill) for all of QB, WR1, 2 OL, 2nd offensive weapon

On defense...
Pay good money for 2 DBs, 2 DL, 1 LB (or 3rd DL)

The team must then fill out the rest of the roster with players on rookie contracts, bargain FAs, and/or cheaper depth players. Typically, none of these remaining players makes more than $6 million a year.

For the Bengals, their big money for 2016 went to the following:
offense = Dalton, Green, Eifert, Whitworth, Zeitler
defense = Atkins, Jones, Kirkpatrick, Dunlap, Johnson

If Whitworth, Zeitler, and Kirkpatrick are re-signed, you're looking at the same top 10 paid players. The only one out of those that really isn't worth the money is MJ, but Burfict could very well become that 5th highest paid defensive player after this coming season.

(01-23-2017, 03:20 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Exactly, Muskies. This thread is based around comparing Zeitler to All-Pros, which just isn't the case.

DeCastro: 1st Team All-Pro x1, 2nd Team All-Pro x1, Pro Bowl x2
Mack: 2nd Team All-Pro x2, Pro Bowl x4
Zeitler:

Yeah, those don't look like same caliber players to me, which means this thread is automatically pretty questionable at best.

and a bunch of the NFL.com anylists as well as others have said that the only reason zeitler hasn't got an all pro while decastro has is because who he plays for. 

(01-23-2017, 11:04 PM)Jpoore Wrote: and a bunch of the NFL.com anylists as well as others have said that the only reason zeitler hasn't got an all pro while decastro has is because who he plays for. 

A bunch of the NFL.com analysts also said that Colin Kaepernick was going to be the next Joe Montana, Mark Sanchez was "The Sanchize" because he was a franchise QB, and that Cedric Ogbuehi in the first round was an A+ grade.

(01-23-2017, 11:13 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: A bunch of the NFL.com analysts also said that Colin Kaepernick was going to be the next Joe Montana, Mark Sanchez was "The Sanchize" because he was a franchise QB, and that Cedric Ogbuehi in the first round was an A+ grade.

Well capernick was a beast when he was with his coach, Sanchez looked nice during his rookie deal and ogbuehi was supposed to be a steal that late.

(01-23-2017, 03:37 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It would be ok to let them go...IF we had a replacement who was close to the same quality.

Not disagreeing, but I think that's just part of the way Marvin handles things.

You get here, you sit on the bench until you're called up. When you get your chance, you've got a couple years to prove yourself (four in the case of Margus). If you are capable,the job is yours until you leave; if you can't handle it they draft your replacement and start over.

It's good for the majority of the guys in the locker room. You get a few years of a decent check and there's no real pecking order based on skill, it's just based on seniority. Crappy way to build a football team, though.

(01-24-2017, 11:34 AM)Benton Wrote: Not disagreeing, but I think that's just part of the way Marvin handles things.

You get here, you sit on the bench until you're called up. When you get your chance, you've got a couple years to prove yourself (four in the case of Margus). If you are capable,the job is yours until you leave; if you can't handle it they draft your replacement and start over.

It's good for the majority of the guys in the locker room. You get a few years of a decent check and there's no real pecking order based on skill, it's just based on seniority. Crappy way to build a football team, though.

It's how they handle things...but just imagine if we selected a 1st Round pick capable of coming in Game 1 and starting and upgrading a position.

Wow! What a concept right? We'd improve the football team.

(01-23-2017, 01:14 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: What it boils down to is you let your good players go because they want more money than you want to play and you replace them with an unproven rookie. That, or you end up drafting their replacement. The alternative is to keep the player and use your 1st Round pick to upgrade another position of need.

This strategy has destroyed a great roster.

Zeitler would be replaced with Westerman just like Smith was replaced by CO.

Ced O was a replacement for Smith only in that he took up a roster spot.

Ced O didn't, couldn't, wouldn't block in either passing or running game and was more akin to replacing a man with a baby.

The team is going to have to evaluate better and also be willing to cut loose of a bust a little more quickly and bring in a replacement.