(02-04-2017, 01:28 AM)Jpoore Wrote: Mike Williams could solve that problem pretty easily js.... That problem was lafell and his inability to create separation across from green. Sure eifert missing a lot of games along with green was part of it but you need your number 2 to be able to create separation when the coverage is tight and he was unable to do so. 

No, he couldn't.  A big, possession receiver isn't going to change the fact that, for most of the season, the Bengals had a terrible offensive line and a complete lack of a running game.  Improve the line, add a back, and watch the offense soar with Core, Boyd, and AJ as the 3 WR set, with Eifert and Uzomah as the TEs.  Kroft hasn't done a thing, and if not for being drafted in the third round, he would likely be getting no opportunities at all.

The best way to get this offense rolling is to get competition for Bodine, and get a really solid replacement for Zeitler.  Dan Feeney would possible be an upgrade at the position.  I also really like the Bistowanty (SP?) kid out of Pitt as a developmental left tackle to compete with Ced to be Whit's eventual replacement that could end up being a good prospect at Guard (something Ced certainly can't be...too weak).  

(02-04-2017, 07:21 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: No, he couldn't.  A big, possession receiver isn't going to change the fact that, for most of the season, the Bengals had a terrible offensive line and a complete lack of a running game.  Improve the line, add a back, and watch the offense soar with Core, Boyd, and AJ as the 3 WR set, with Eifert and Uzomah as the TEs.  Kroft hasn't done a thing, and if not for being drafted in the third round, he would likely be getting no opportunities at all.

The best way to get this offense rolling is to get competition for Bodine, and get a really solid replacement for Zeitler.  Dan Feeney would possible be an upgrade at the position.  I also really like the Bistowanty (SP?) kid out of Pitt as a developmental left tackle to compete with Ced to be Whit's eventual replacement that could end up being a good prospect at Guard (something Ced certainly can't be...too weak).  

I disagree they threw it up to aj a lot of times assuming he would come down with it. The same thing can be said for Williams now u have 2 big play threats which leaves the middle of the field open for Boyd and eifert to work. We need to get a Center for sure elflien is the best bet imo. They should sign our big 3 and be done with it. That would improve the middle of the line tremendously. I also liked fisher holding RT down near end of year. I think with another off-season he could be a above average RT. A line of Whit boling elflien zeitler fisher would do wonders.

Even if the defense wasn't ranked low stats-wise... there clearly was a lack of a pass rush.

This team would get killed by most teams they would face in the playoffs... even if they made it that far.

MJ, Peko, and yes even Geno were not good last season.

The offense sputtering only made it worse. Being horrible in the RZ and lack of any kind of run blocking only compounded with most of the line who couldn't pass block well either.

Fix the F'n lines. They need a swift kick in the ass !

I'm starting now to lean on letting Drek walk if it means keeping both Whit & Z and bringing in some contributors in both side of the trenches.

(02-03-2017, 04:54 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Who? Burfict was suspended for a few games, and dinged up a bit, but other than that? Two rookies who weren't going to play much is all I can think of.

MJ(bad), Dunlap(Good), Atkins(Meh last season), Peko(Bad unless rotated), V Rey(meh), Iloka(WTF not good...  Nelson?), Shaw(Flashes but meh), Dansby(old and slow), Sims(perinnial back up), Clarke(Flashes), Vigil(?), Fej(looks fundementally sound), Flowers(Cut this guy), and A Jones(Up and down) all played 16 games.
Williams(Turrible at times), Hunt(Kick blocker... what else?), and Dennard(underacheiver) played 15 games.
Kirkpatrick(Ok but handsy) and Maualuga(Bench rider) played 14.

That's honestly more healthy than most teams can hope to be on one side of the ball.

Less than a handful of starters who are worth a damn even when healthy.

We might return with this same group only a year older...  oh joy.

Not really replying to you Leonard.  That's just an eye opener in my opinion.

Basically, the offense started off with a bang and faded as the season went on due to injuries to Green and Bernard. The defense started poorly but improved as the year went on.

Had both sides of the ball had their sh!t together at the same time, perhaps they would have made the playoffs?

(02-04-2017, 01:24 PM)BengalFanInNJ Wrote: Basically, the offense started off with a bang and faded as the season went on due to injuries to Green and Bernard. The defense started poorly but improved as the year went on.

Had both sides of the ball had their sh!t together at the same time, perhaps they would have made the playoffs?

See that's the problem.

I've been a glass half full kind of guy for most of my Bengal's fan existence...  until now.

Make the playoffs?

Yeah... they've done that.

Even with our supposed deep roster and "stellar" players.

They don't stack up and barely compete when they "make the playoffs".

Time for someone to get their head out of their ass and realize the concoction(players & coaches)is NOT working.

(02-04-2017, 01:24 PM)BengalFanInNJ Wrote: Basically, the offense started off with a bang and faded as the season went on due to injuries to Green and Bernard. The defense started poorly but improved as the year went on.

Had both sides of the ball had their sh!t together at the same time, perhaps they would have made the playoffs?

The offense really wasn't that great. They only scored 24 or more points in 2 of their first 9 games, that's when Green and Gio were healthy.

We saw the same problem we saw all year. Poor half time adjustments.

The 2nd half, they had 8 touchdowns in those 9 games in total. 8. Touchdowns. That's averaging less than a touchdown per 2nd half in those games. And yes. We had Eifert for some games too.

They scored 96 total points in the 2nd half during those games. Averaging 10.6 points per second half.  Ended up averaged 8.4 points per 2nd half.
For measurement, they averaged 12.7 in 2015. 10th in the NFL.

Zampese couldn't adjust his gameplan and didn't know how to counter.

I'm sorry to say, but this offense will be held back under him. We can't finish. And that goes as a whole. Can't finish long drives and can't finish out games.

(02-04-2017, 08:22 AM)Jpoore Wrote: I disagree they threw it up to aj a lot of times assuming he would come down with it. The same thing can be said for Williams now u have 2 big play threats which leaves the middle of the field open for Boyd and eifert to work. We need to get a Center for sure elflien is the best bet imo. They should sign our big 3 and be done with it. That would improve the middle of the line tremendously. I also liked fisher holding RT down near end of year. I think with another off-season he could be a above average RT. A line of Whit boling elflien zeitler fisher would do wonders.

I think people exaggerate the heck out of this. We really don't just blindly chuck it to AJ as much as people say. That said, there's nothing wrong with going WR at 9 IMO. Green is 29 and only has a couple prime years left. We'd have a pretty nice tandem in the meantime. Also agree that we could take a Williams and still fix the line.

(02-04-2017, 11:04 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Even if the defense wasn't ranked low stats-wise... there clearly was a lack of a pass rush.

This team would get killed by most teams they would face in the playoffs... even if they made it that far.

MJ, Peko, and yes even Geno were not good last season.

The offense sputtering only made it worse. Being horrible in the RZ and lack of any kind of run blocking only compounded with most of the line who couldn't pass block well either.

Fix the F'n lines. They need a swift kick in the ass !

I'm starting now to lean on letting Drek walk if it means keeping both Whit & Z and bringing in some contributors in both side of the trenches.

Agree that the pass rush needs help desperately, but Geno had 9 sacks last year and graded out as one of the top DT's. I just think (a) he's spoiled us and (b) people see the lack of pass rush and automatically think our top pass rushers must be failing. It's not Dunlap or Atkins. It's everybody else.

(02-04-2017, 01:24 PM)BengalFanInNJ Wrote: Basically, the offense started off with a bang and faded as the season went on due to injuries to Green and Bernard. The defense started poorly but improved as the year went on.

Had both sides of the ball had their sh!t together at the same time, perhaps they would have made the playoffs?

If by bang you mean "7 sacks", I agree. It was obvious early that the line would be a big problem. Same with the RZ. Just like in 2014 (when Eifert was also out), we just could not get passing TDs in the RZ. This was never a problem with Gruden, but it seems we've relied heavily on Eifert since then. Not good considering his health.

(02-04-2017, 02:59 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I think people exaggerate the heck out of this. We really don't just blindly chuck it to AJ as much as people say. That said, there's nothing wrong with going WR at 9 IMO. Green is 29 and only has a couple prime years left. We'd have a pretty nice tandem in the meantime. Also agree that we could take a Williams and still fix the line.


Agree that the pass rush needs help desperately, but Geno had 9 sacks last year and graded out as one of the top DT's. I just think (a) he's spoiled us and (b) people see the lack of pass rush and automatically think our top pass rushers must be failing. It's not Dunlap or Atkins. It's everybody else.


If by bang you mean "7 sacks", I agree. It was obvious early that the line would be a big problem. Same with the RZ. Just like in 2014 (when Eifert was also out), we just could not get passing TDs in the RZ. This was never a problem with Gruden, but it seems we've relied heavily on Eifert since then. Not good considering his health.

I'm not putting it all on Geno because Peko is not helping him either.

You can't base Atkins overall play off of sacks.

Some of those were against some of the worst opposing O-lines in the league.

I dunno.  Grades aside.   Geno just looked like another dude for most of the season IMO.

That doesn't mean he isn't one of the best on the team at his position.  He just seemed flat especially earlier on.

(02-04-2017, 07:12 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: The defense improved throughout the year, but they were awful early in the season.  The offense, however, declined as they lost players like AJ.  They actually started the year off pretty well, although they struggled in the Red Zone without Eifert.  

4 of the first 6 were Pitt, Denver, NE and Dallas and 3 of those were on the road.  That will tax any D early in the season.

(02-04-2017, 07:21 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: No, he couldn't.  A big, possession receiver isn't going to change the fact that, for most of the season, the Bengals had a terrible offensive line and a complete lack of a running game.  Improve the line, add a back, and watch the offense soar with Core, Boyd, and AJ as the 3 WR set, with Eifert and Uzomah as the TEs.  Kroft hasn't done a thing, and if not for being drafted in the third round, he would likely be getting no opportunities at all.

The best way to get this offense rolling is to get competition for Bodine, and get a really solid replacement for Zeitler.  Dan Feeney would possible be an upgrade at the position.  I also really like the Bistowanty (SP?) kid out of Pitt as a developmental left tackle to compete with Ced to be Whit's eventual replacement that could end up being a good prospect at Guard (something Ced certainly can't be...too weak).  

Did I mention that Bodine was rated just one step above "worst center in NFL" according to Five-Three-Eight?
Way to go PA!!!

(02-04-2017, 03:05 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I'm not putting it all on Geno because Peko is not helping him either.

You can't base Atkins overall play off of sacks.

Some of those were against some of the worst opposing O-lines in the league.

I dunno.  Grades aside.   Geno just looked like another dude for most of the season IMO.

That doesn't mean he isn't one of the best on the team at his position.  He just seemed flat especially earlier on.

Here's the sacks Geno had and where those teams ranked in sacks allowed:

1 vs Steelers - 2nd best in NFL in sacks allowed
1 vs Giants - 3rd
1 vs Redskins - 4th
1.5 vs Dolphins - 10th
1 vs Texans - 11th
0.5 vs Ravens - 14th
1 vs Jets - 16th
2 vs Browns - 32nd

So the Browns are the only bad line he got sacks on. His other 7 sacks came against some of the better lines in football. Geno did close out strong (4.5 sacks in last 4 games), but I think he was fine all year. He just needs some help. When that whole line is getting pressures, it will benefit Geno's (and everyone else's) numbers as well.

(02-04-2017, 06:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Here's the sacks Geno had and where those teams ranked in sacks allowed:

1 vs Steelers - 2nd best in NFL in sacks allowed
1 vs Giants - 3rd
1 vs Redskins - 4th
1.5 vs Dolphins - 10th
1 vs Texans - 11th
0.5 vs Ravens - 14th
1 vs Jets - 16th
2 vs Browns - 32nd

So the Browns are the only bad line he got sacks on. His other 7 sacks came against some of the better lines in football. Geno did close out strong (4.5 sacks in last 4 games), but I think he was fine all year. He just needs some help. When that whole line is getting pressures, it will benefit Geno's (and everyone else's) numbers as well.

That may be true...  but other than the Browns game he seemed quite pedestrian IMO.

The same Browns who couldn't keep their QB from getting injured every game.

He's better than anyone we've had play the position in many years. 

Yet I don't think he's the dominant force he once looked to be.

I'm probably on an island in this opinion.

(02-04-2017, 03:05 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I'm not putting it all on Geno because Peko is not helping him either.

You can't base Atkins overall play off of sacks.

Some of those were against some of the worst opposing O-lines in the league.

I dunno.  Grades aside.   Geno just looked like another dude for most of the season IMO.

That doesn't mean he isn't one of the best on the team at his position.  He just seemed flat especially earlier on.

Wonder how much of that had to do with no Burfict/fat Burfict at the beginning of the year. The people behind Atkins were Dansby, Maualuga, Williams, and Iloka, all of whom were pretty damn awful last year. Atkins likely had to worry about maintaining gaps much more in the beginning of the year, because there was no faith that the people behind him could pick up any slack.

A mixture of that, everyone not named Dunlap or Atkins being terrible, and the fact that DL get to be a lot more aggressive when they are playing with a bigger lead, and the O never really scored a ton, is my guess.

He was still a really good player, but not the elite level we've been spoiled with.

(02-05-2017, 02:07 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Wonder how much of that had to do with no Burfict/fat Burfict at the beginning of the year. The people behind Atkins were Dansby, Maualuga, Williams, and Iloka, all of whom were pretty damn awful last year. Atkins likely had to worry about maintaining gaps much more in the beginning of the year, because there was no faith that the people behind him could pick up any slack.

A mixture of that, everyone not named Dunlap or Atkins being terrible, and the fact that DL get to be a lot more aggressive when they are playing with a bigger lead, and the O never really scored a ton, is my guess.

He was still a really good player, but not the elite level we've been spoiled with.

Yeah I pretty much agree with all of this.

We're spoiled by some of his previous examples of playing.

It sure would be nice to see him next to a better DT and the whole line would benefit with a better edge rusher on the other end.

MJ is not impressive at all. Though on more than one occasion I remember him getting in chokeholds without a single flag being tossed.  He sure doesn't get many holding calls in his favor does he? LOL 

(02-04-2017, 08:28 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: That may be true...  but other than the Browns game he seemed quite pedestrian IMO.

The same Browns who couldn't keep their QB from getting injured every game.

He's better than anyone we've had play the position in many years. 

Yet I don't think he's the dominant force he once looked to be.

I'm probably on an island in this opinion.

I think he's still dominant... Also think he's better when he plays more snaps. But the problem is you have 2 people 3 at most if u include burfict who can legitimately rush the passer and only 2 on your defensive line. That has to change. Billings will definitely help with that he should require a double team. A guy like demarcus Walker or taco Charlton or somebody like that would help quite a bit. Would not be opposed to drafting defensive ends in first 2 rounds bc Dunlap us getting up there in age as well. Everyone can focus on Dunlap and Atkins and has no worry about Johnson or peko that's the problem. 

(02-04-2017, 03:22 PM)motoarch Wrote: 4 of the first 6 were Pitt, Denver, NE and Dallas and 3 of those were on the road.  That will tax any D early in the season.

Yeah, and two of those teams had rookie QBs that were not forced to throw in to coverage due to the good old "Coyle cushion"...and Adam Jones looked horribly out of shape against Denver.  

Plus, you can't simply allow a team to throw up a 30 burger just because they are playoff caliber (although Denver wasn't).  You have to find a way to stop those teams or you are simply playing to be average. 

(02-05-2017, 04:47 AM)Jpoore Wrote: I think he's still dominant... Also think he's better when he plays more snaps. But the problem is you have 2 people 3 at most if u include burfict who can legitimately rush the passer and only 2 on your defensive line. That has to change. Billings will definitely help with that he should require a double team. A guy like demarcus Walker or taco Charlton or somebody like that would help quite a bit. Would not be opposed to drafting defensive ends in first 2 rounds bc Dunlap us getting up there in age as well. Everyone can focus on Dunlap and Atkins and has no worry about Johnson or peko that's the problem. 

(02-05-2017, 11:25 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote:

Yeah I definitely agree but how is this draft on DEs?

I'm so done with MJ, Hunt, and Gilberry(though he is okay in rotation).

These guys are weak and even non existing at times.

I just hope Billings isn't a flop.  I thought early reports before getting injured were that he was getting pushed around. 
So I hope that he gets a chance to strengthen up post injury.
I'd hate to see them march Peko out there again unless it's an occasional thing.

Well reports on Billings is he has been working out as much asnd as often as he can so that's a good sign. Also would rather have peko than Sims. As far as defensive end personally I think we're gonna go with kpassagnon. But there are lots of defensive ends. Thomas, Barnett, Walker, Charlton, kpassagnon, Harris, shoot, wormley, McDowell, Williams, McKinley. And that's just too 2 rounds. So there is opportunity if we want to get an elite defensive end. I would keep hunt around just as a fg blocker but if we need the room on the 53 I understand letting him go.