(02-19-2017, 04:27 AM)Jpoore Wrote: U can't equate a qb to a rb in regards to his production. And Im sorry ur a top 10 pick u have to be able to average more than 2 yards a carry on a college dline with a good oline. How is it he's supposed to be better than Zeke but can't do what Zeke does? 

Zeke had a bad game against Michigan State. MSU also had a worse D-line than Bama and OSU had a better O-Line than LSU.  Zeke also wasn't stuck in an offensive system that was outdated in the 1960s. More factors are in play than just stats.

(02-19-2017, 05:13 AM)blt4584 Wrote: Zeke had a bad game against Michigan State. MSU also had a worse D-line than Bama and OSU had a better O-Line than LSU.  Zeke also wasn't stuck in an offensive system that was outdated in the 1960s. More factors are in play than just stats.

yeah in a game he got like 12 carries. Barrett had about 27 carries. Oh yeah and he was 5 days removed from a staff infection in his leg and he could barely walk the day before the game. 

(02-19-2017, 05:23 AM)Jpoore Wrote: yeah in a game he got like 12 carries. Barrett had about 27 carries. Oh yeah and he was 5 days removed from a staff infection in his leg and he could barely walk the day before the game. 

So if Fournette has a bad game it means he will be a bust, but if Zeke has a bad game there are several reasons why it doesn't count? 

(02-18-2017, 04:35 PM)Jpoore Wrote: last I checked fournette still couldn't do anything against bama's line. U have to do good against good dlines to be considered a top 10 pick. 

This may be the absolute dumbest evaluation of talent i have ever seen.  LSU had a one dimensional offense with very few future nfl prospects vs a defense loaded with nfl starters.  No starting nfl back could have done much better in that situation.  So yeah he couldn't single handily beat the Alabama defense.  

(02-19-2017, 02:27 PM)Okeana Wrote: This may be the absolute dumbest evaluation of talent i have ever seen.  LSU had a one dimensional offense with very few future nfl prospects vs a defense loaded with nfl starters.  No starting nfl back could have done much better in that situation.  So yeah he couldn't single handily beat the Alabama defense.  

The point that he was trying to make, and some may see this as a valid point, Alabama team, especially on defense, is as close to NFL "ready" compared to other college teams.  LF needs space.  The same criticisms was against Steven Jackson; and he seemed to work out fine.  I see LF and Cook rare talent.  Cook runs like Sayers.  Watch YouTube on Sayers.   I know Cook is a character risk.  Both would be great at 9th position in draft.  

If the Bengals do not fix RG and RT position, and Center, they could draft Barry Sanders and it wouldn't matter.  

My biggest concern with Fournette will always be his inability to read his blockers. He touched on it in the first video. He is used to reading inside out and when in a play where you're supposed to read outside in, he does not.

That is virtually the same problem that Jeremy Hill has and they haven't been able to correct that in him in the 3 years he's been here.

I know people don't like hearing the comparison between Hill and Fournette, but this is just the biggest issue both of them have and, although Fournette is faster and stronger, that doesn't matter as much if you're not seeing the holes your offensive line is opening up for you.

That play the first video showed against Ole Miss where he went for a 3 yard gain inside when he could have gotten a 20+ yard gain just by following his pulling guard....it literally looked like a Jeremy Hill run.

I wouldn't hate Fournette at 9 because, physically, he is extremely gifted.

But he has so many similarities with Jeremy Hill that just bother me to no end.

If we draft Fournette and he follows Hill's path and has a successful rookie year that leads to him never adjusting what he needs to adjust to be a successful player in the long term, then it'll be just another high pick wasted on a LSU RB.

(02-19-2017, 02:27 PM)Okeana Wrote: This may be the absolute dumbest evaluation of talent i have ever seen.  LSU had a one dimensional offense with very few future nfl prospects vs a defense loaded with nfl starters.  No starting nfl back could have done much better in that situation.  So yeah he couldn't single handily beat the Alabama defense.  

Zeke did? With a third string qb. 

(02-19-2017, 05:03 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: The point that he was trying to make, and some may see this as a valid point, Alabama team, especially on defense, is as close to NFL "ready" compared to other college teams.  LF needs space.  The same criticisms was against Steven Jackson; and he seemed to work out fine.  I see LF and Cook rare talent.  Cook runs like Sayers.  Watch YouTube on Sayers.   I know Cook is a character risk.  Both would be great at 9th position in draft.  

If the Bengals do not fix RG and RT position, and Center, they could draft Barry Sanders and it wouldn't matter.  

THis is why as much as lb is a need, I'm all for pat elflien in the second. A guy who if he can't take bodines place at c in year one. He can switch to guard for the first year. As far as RT, I think Fisher locked it up. He played well the nose snaps he got and a full off-season there I think he will be an above average RT at least. Also why I think we should spend zeitler money if we lose him.on kiko Alonso. A long shot as an rfa but hey. 

(02-19-2017, 09:17 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Zeke did? With a third string qb. 

And a coach that knows how to put together an offensive gameplan and a functional O-Line. Also, a thrid string QB provided much more of a threat in the passing game than the strings of QBs that Miles destroyed over the years. To add even more to this, Bama is basically built to beat power running offenses, but when they play spread teams, like OSU, they can sometimes have trouble playing in space. Fournette and Guice made the LSU line look a lot better than they actually were the past two years, but Bama was able to assert their dominance and just pushed the LSU fronts around. A lot of variables go into football.

I don't think a lot of people really understand how much Les Miles and Cam Cameron held back the LSU program. Bama was able to dominate up front, on both sides, because Miles wasn't putting out linemen that could push back. To add to this, Miles wanted coaches that put an emphases on recruiting instead of coaching, so players, especially on the O-Line and at QB, haven't been developed worth a damn.

(02-19-2017, 05:03 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: The point that he was trying to make, and some may see this as a valid point, Alabama team, especially on defense, is as close to NFL "ready" compared to other college teams.  LF needs space.  The same criticisms was against Steven Jackson; and he seemed to work out fine.  I see LF and Cook rare talent.  Cook runs like Sayers.  Watch YouTube on Sayers.   I know Cook is a character risk.  Both would be great at 9th position in draft.  

If the Bengals do not fix RG and RT position, and Center, they could draft Barry Sanders and it wouldn't matter.  

I don't argue that the line needs work, but I'm not dismissing LF because we have some line needs.  Just like im not going to base my opinion off a game where a college team played an NFL team.

That is a great breakdown of Fournette, reps Okeana.

This to me shows why he just would not fit here. He is primarily a gap scheme runner with great size, burst,
speed that is not the best at catching the ball out of the backfield. We would have to completely change our
whole mindset as an Offense if he came here. We would be way too predictable.

This is taking nothing away from Fourette's freakish ability with his breakaway speed for his size which is
almost incomparable to any RB since like Earl Campbell.

We are not a good run blocking team which is where Fournette would thrive, we do not have an OC who can
gameplan to get our RB's going, we need a RB that can catch the ball out of the backfield and make a Defense
pay if they forget about the running game. Dalvin Cook to me is the much better back for us if we go RB in the
first round.

(02-19-2017, 10:14 PM)blt4584 Wrote: And a coach that knows how to put together an offensive gameplan and a functional O-Line. Also, a thrid string QB provided much more of a threat in the passing game than the strings of QBs that Miles destroyed over the years. To add even more to this, Bama is basically built to beat power running offenses, but when they play spread teams, like OSU, they can sometimes have trouble playing in space. Fournette and Guice made the LSU line look a lot better than they actually were the past two years, but Bama was able to assert their dominance and just pushed the LSU fronts around. A lot of variables go into football.

I don't think a lot of people really understand how much Les Miles and Cam Cameron held back the LSU program. Bama was able to dominate up front, on both sides, because Miles wasn't putting out linemen that could push back. To add to this, Miles wanted coaches that put an emphases on recruiting instead of coaching, so players, especially on the O-Line and at QB, haven't been developed worth a damn.

Maybe so, but Cook played behind a line worse than LSU's, and he was a gamebreaker.  If I go RB at 9, it's Dalvin Cook.  A multi-faceted homerun hitter.  

(02-20-2017, 03:09 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: That is a great breakdown of Fournette, reps Okeana.

This to me shows why he just would not fit here. He is primarily a gap scheme runner with great size, burst,
speed that is not the best at catching the ball out of the backfield. We would have to completely change our
whole mindset as an Offense if he came here. We would be way too predictable.

This is taking nothing away from Fourette's freakish ability with his breakaway speed for his size which is
almost incomparable to any RB since like Earl Campbell.

We are not a good run blocking team which is where Fournette would thrive, we do not have an OC who can
gameplan to get our RB's going, we need a RB that can catch the ball out of the backfield and make a Defense
pay if they forget about the running game. Dalvin Cook to me is the much better back for us if we go RB in the
first round.

Precisely my sentiment.  Fournette will be a star, so long as he goes somewhere that has more than an outdated lifer coaching the o line.

(02-20-2017, 03:19 PM)Wyche Wrote: Maybe so, but Cook played behind a line worse than LSU's, and he was a gamebreaker.  If I go RB at 9, it's Dalvin Cook.  A multi-faceted homerun hitter.  

I don't know, both O-lines were pretty trash overall. LSU get ranked highly by some places, but I just didn't see it to be honest. FSU also had a passing game to take pressure off. Fournette had a lot of success when teams knew that he was it. Both players had to carry their teams at times and both, for the most part, were able to. There are about 10-12 guys I would be really happy with if the Bengals got them, both Cook and Fournette are on the list.

As of right now, I would bet the Panthers would take Fournette if he was available and him and Cam will beat teams into submission for a while. I also would bet that the Bengals wouldn't take either one if they had the chance, so it's kind of a moot point anyway. I have a bad feeling someone will sign Dre away and we go corner again.

(02-20-2017, 03:09 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: That is a great breakdown of Fournette, reps Okeana.

This to me shows why he just would not fit here. He is primarily a gap scheme runner with great size, burst,
speed that is not the best at catching the ball out of the backfield. We would have to completely change our
whole mindset as an Offense if he came here. We would be way too predictable.

This is taking nothing away from Fourette's freakish ability with his breakaway speed for his size which is
almost incomparable to any RB since like Earl Campbell.

We are not a good run blocking team which is where Fournette would thrive, we do not have an OC who can
gameplan to get our RB's going, we need a RB that can catch the ball out of the backfield and make a Defense
pay if they forget about the running game. Dalvin Cook to me is the much better back for us if we go RB in the
first round.

As I have already mentioned I think either back helps this offense. There isn't a healthy back on the Bengals roster that is as capable as Cook or LF. I think Okeana's breakdown is pretty close, in fact I read a similar one from a supposed professional.

That said, while I agree to an extent, I disagree with part of it as well. 

I think many are underestimating Fournette's capability to catch the football. Cook has shown better hands without a doubt but, Cook played in an offense that throws to the backs and they featured him. Leonard played in a cesspool of coaching uncertainty.

All of that mentioned, the reason that I quoted you Nate wasn't to debate. It was because I got tickled at you saying the Bengals need a back that can catch. I agree, but they also need an OC that understands how to get the RBs the ball in space and we don't have that in Cincy!! 

You're thinking about Josh McDaniels and the team that just won the SB. Cincy tries to throw to the backs but do a poor job of it imo. 

Not to rain on the speculation parade but I just don't think Merv will draft either back, unfortunately.

(02-20-2017, 04:00 PM)blt4584 Wrote: I don't know, both O-lines were pretty trash overall. LSU get ranked highly by some places, but I just didn't see it to be honest. FSU also had a passing game to take pressure off. Fournette had a lot of success when teams knew that he was it. Both players had to carry their teams at times and both, for the most part, were able to. There are about 10-12 guys I would be really happy with if the Bengals got them, both Cook and Fournette are on the list.

As of right now, I would bet the Panthers would take Fournette if he was available and him and Cam will beat teams into submission for a while. I also would bet that the Bengals wouldn't take either one if they had the chance, so it's kind of a moot point anyway. I have a bad feeling someone will sign Dre away and we go corner again.

Yep, the Noles did have a passing game, though it struggled at times due to age at QB, too much pressure from a porous o line, and not much in the way of real threats outside of Rudolph.  Cook also excelled in the passing game, which is honestly what makes me like him more than Leonard.....and I feel he is shiftier and more elusive.  We'll need that elusiveness with the way this line plays.  We have been terrible in the run game for years because our shit o line coach thinks it's cute to sit back and play patty cake instead of firing off the ball and smacking somebody in the mouth.

You're most likely correct in that they'll pass on both.  My fear is you take the most "blah" player in the first round, and that will be who we get.  If I hadn't gotten older, and become so numb to it, I'd be furious....

This is super strange, but do you even look at receiving stats on these players ? Cook and Fournette have very similar receiving stats.

2015 receiving stats LF

rec 19 / yards 253 / AVG 13.3 / LONG 46 / TD's 1

2015 receiving stats DC

rec 24 / yards 244 / AVG 10.2 / LONG 36 / TD 1

............................................

These guys both have natural ability catching the ball so i don't see this as a dividing point. I think both are top 15 talent dynamic running backs which is really great considering 4 to 5 years ago most running backs weren't valued at all.

(02-21-2017, 11:07 AM)Okeana Wrote: This is super strange, but do you even look at receiving stats on these players ?  Cook and Fournette have very similar receiving stats.  

2015 receiving stats LF

rec 19 / yards 253 / AVG 13.3 / LONG 46 / TD's 1

2015 receiving stats DC

rec 24 / yards 244 / AVG 10.2 / LONG 36 / TD 1

............................................

These guys both have natural ability catching the ball so i don't see this as a dividing point.  I think both are top 15 talent dynamic running backs which is really great considering 4 to 5 years ago most running backs weren't valued at all.

That's pretty wild.  I've just never seen LF make an over the shoulder catch 50 yards downfield in stride like DC did in the bowl game.

What were last year's numbers?

(02-21-2017, 11:43 AM)Wyche Wrote: That's pretty wild.  I've just never seen LF make an over the shoulder catch 50 yards downfield in stride like DC did in the bowl game.

What were last year's numbers?

not even worth posting last years stats because LF 

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/leonard-fournette-1.html

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/dalvin-cook-1.html

Last year wasn't even comparable because of games played and lack of quarterback at LSU.  

As far as over the shoulder catches.   Here is an example at 19:57

I think LF will be gone by 9th pick. If the team trades down a couple slots like I said in another thread then Cook would be there at 12. Foster may be there as well because of injury concerns. LF goes to the Jets.